SZZS specific CEF50-main thread (initial builds and troubleshooting related only)

[Tilt]

Ils ont toujours l'air ou la bobine Vivid. Cane Creek les fabrique toujours. Mais vous avez raison, il s'agit d'une taille un peu dépassée, non métrique, qui n'est plus vraiment courante. Renard je n'ai pas vérifié...

 

[Tilt]

Et la fourche qu'elle modele et aussi le poids super important non?

 

[Suns_PSD]

They still have the Vivid air or coil. Cane Creek still makes them. But You are right, this is a somewhat outdated, non-metric size not really common any more. Fox I didn’t check…

The Cane creek option is a good one. They make a 210/ 50/ 52.5/ 55. It's expensive, however.

So, the 210 overall lengths would raise the back end 7.5mm, which will steepen the STA a bit more than 1' & shorten the Reach about 5mm. Also a bit taller BB which I like. Add a -1-headset cup and you're in business.

The 50mm stroke keeps you at 149mm travel, the 52.5mm gives you 157mm travel whereas the 55mm stroke 164mm travel. These are all in the range of where I want to be.

I'd run the 210/ 52.5 & keep my fork at 160mm personally.

Thanks for the input.


The Relay gets shown very soon and has complete prices ranging from $6.8K (Al frame) to $12.5K for the loaded-up version, which isn't awful for a high-end e-bike actually.

Obviously the CEF50 is going to be cheaper and have the advantage of allowing lots of personalization. But it also looks like an e-bike, sounds like an e-bike, and I wouldn't expect it to hold any value at all. If it works perfectly none of this is really an issue for me.

Also, I suspect the Relay Geo will be a bit more cutting edge.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Tilt, it's not really translating.

Not really understanding your question regarding Fork weight.

 

[thaeber]

So, the 210 overall lengths would raise the back end 7.5mm,

Sorry but I don’t get it 210 x 50 is the shock length / stroke specified for the frame. So it would do nothing to the geo for my understanding….

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Just to recap; I did post this clear pic at beginning of the thread, but I should reinforce that the shock is a standard mount rather than the trunnion mount.

BTW: When I purchased by DengFu E06 fat bike, I bought a trunnion as per their website pictures but they sent me a standard. Fortunately, DengFu shipped it fast, so I still had time to exchange the rear shock in time...so sh$t can happen!

 

[TCFlowClyde]

The Relay gets shown very soon and has complete prices ranging from $6.8K (Al frame) to $12.5K for the loaded-up version, which isn't awful for a high-end e-bike actually.

Obviously the CEF50 is going to be cheaper and have the advantage of allowing lots of personalization. But it also looks like an e-bike, sounds like an e-bike, and I wouldn't expect it to hold any value at all. If it works perfectly none of this is really an issue for me.

Also, I suspect the Relay Geo will be a bit more cutting edge.

FYI: I rode the Fuel Ex-e (last summer) and the Shuttle SL (a few weeks ago) to compare the TQ50 and Fazua60 (10-12 secs of turbo boost was intermittent and funky). The extra 10 Nm was nicer, but still a tad weak. So, that redirected my thoughts away from the Relay. That and the cost.

For the stealth factor...the Fuel Ex-e was least "e-detectable", but the Shuttle SL was close. I think the Relay is a distant 3rd, and the Siryon a respectable 4th (IMHO).

Unfortunately, I'm unable to test the Siryon's Eon drive (aka M820--Posh)....the exclusive US dealer is World Wide Cyclery and the closest shop is a 12-hour drive.

I should be testing the Rise H30 soon in order to compare all others to the Shimano RS, which is reported to be the strongest climber at a similar 60 Nm...but very unstealthy in comparison.

Since Bafang really is keen to copy Shimano and then beef it up...I think this would be the closest "power" comparison.

We'll have to wait on see just how "unstealthy" the CEF50 really is, but the burlier downtube is proportionate to the motor bracket mount area and linkage. Especially with that oversized rocker arm. Not quite as integrated as the Siryon...but nicer robust looking. IMHO.

But stealth in the US maybe not be as critical as it was just a few short years ago due the increasing popularity and more access for Class 1 (20 mph, no throttle). So, hoping the tradeoff will be a huskier-like Relay, enduro-rig with a high 75/95 Nm powered torque, and big-ass 720 Wh battery, with big, plush travel, all while shedding 8-12 lbs for more "shredable", agility for that longer range, epic singletracking... I'm pumped!

 

[thaeber]

I don’t need stealth look / hide it’s an ebike. I think the CEF50 has a verny nice and still slim silhouette. Noise is important for me, and I‘m so curious to see how the M820 will perform and sound. And the best: I have You guinea pigs to test it! Cross fingers that it it will be a great success - and I believe it will!

 

[Suns_PSD]

The specs and pricing of the Relay are out.

Forestal will sell just a frame only. You just have to email them and request pricing.

I really like the Forestal with 2 concerns.

1) The seat tube appears to be very limiting in regards to dropper post length. I can live with a 185 (I'm on a 200 now) but would find a 150 a huge step backwards.
2) The battery is just a hair small. I think a built in 450-500 watt would be much more useable for most riding days.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I too rode the EXE just last weekend back-to-back against my SJEvo.

On the low setting, I would have chosen my SjEvo, even for a road climb, as it was just a bit faster and much more nimble feeling. This was a cheap heavyish build and I guess the stock tires were slow as well.

On the mid setting it would have been like 30% faster on any climb. But the bike was a fair bit heavier than my bike.

On the high setting it was quite a bit faster but was also eating battery quite quickly.

My SJ Evo has some decently fast tires (front is the Tioga edge22 Soft & rear is the Wicked Will, both with inserts) and 98% of the time I can shred anything I was going to do anyways on those tires up and down, but occasionally I wish for something with more grip.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

The specs and pricing of the Relay are out.

Forestal will sell just a frame only. You just have to email them and request pricing.

I really like the Forestal with 2 concerns.

1) The seat tube appears to be very limiting in regards to dropper post length. I can live with a 185 (I'm on a 200 now) but would find a 150 a huge step backwards.
2) The battery is just a hair small. I think a built in 450-500 watt would be much more useable for most riding days.

Loosely-related to the CEF50-Bafang M820--Beastie v. Siryon--EonDrive/M820-Posh.

Interesting on the Forestal Siryon can be ordered factory direct. I asked WWC and they said no...they want to maximize retail value I assume.

But I like a lot about the Siryon minus expense. I still think the 60 Nm isn't appealing to me. And that mono swing arm look isn't for me definitely. (It does look good on the full-powered Ibis Oso, but that's a different story/thread)

But thread qualifier here:

Go burly CEF50 BAFANG M820--Beastie!

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Just a quick CEF50 v Siryon/Cyon non-drive-side comparison for the purposes of aesthetics. Definitely lower profile for both. A little softer curves v. more geometrical line.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

See the latest, recent review of the M820--Posh (60Nm)/EonDrive and Aurora battery (360 Wh) characteristics. Implications for the CEF50?...my take!

M820 (60Nm) v. M820 (75Nm)

Pro: strong climber v. stronger climber(?)

Con#1: less stealth. v. lesser stealth (?)
Con#2: whistle noise v. more noise(?)

Aurora 360Wh on 60Nm. Pro: compact/lite Con:range "sucks up battery", "1 -hr usage", "...needs 250Wh extender".

V.
Bafang BT-F014 (410 Wh) on 75Nm. Pro: same/worse(?). Con: same/worse

V.
CEF50 (720 Wh) on 75Nm. Pro: range(?). Con: 1.5 lbs/0.7 kg weight .

(?) = unknown

[URLunfurl="true"]Forestal Cyon Halo e-bike review - MBR[/URL]

Here's a vid review of the EonDrive/Bafang M820 motor whine or whirring noise and possibly a gear grinding wretch? Check it out if interested.

Remember, this is in higher stress environs (climbs) and turbo modes that most E-mtbs in general experience. Even the TQ50/Fazua60 has some noise. But, it's definitely evident in the vid.

 

[thaeber]

Thanks for sharing! This whining noise is well known from my M510, but I think it’s not as loud as what You hear on the video from the Forestal M820. I hope it will not be that disturbing with M820! I don’t like the noise of my M510, this would be the first thing to improve if I were Bafang. Let’s see…

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Thanks for sharing! This whining noise is well known from my M510, but I think it’s not as loud as what You hear on the video from the Forestal M820. I hope it will not be that disturbing with M820! I don’t like the noise of my M510, this would be the first thing to improve if I were Bafang. Let’s see…

Yes...true video and microphone enhancement of sound in the cockpit is usually amplified a bit.

We'll have to do a third party come sound check from a hiker's perspective when the M820 builds are fleshed out in real time.

Would be a good stand-alone YT vid for Rob Rides channel fans.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Got enough juice? Get jacked or get left behind?

Given the uniqueness of the M820--75Nm, mid-powered frame: If you're considering the CEF50-410 Wh battery version...listen to some of more elite Enduro riders' opinions on the small v. big battery potential below.

Remember, even if you are able to run a little extender, the 1.54 lb/0.7 kg savings off the bigger 720Wh, may not be worth smaller battery option....esp. if you're fit enough to keep up with your full-powered buddies...can you still range with them? But of course do what fits your projected riding style, just with a more informed decision!

Potential drawback? Sure, center of gravity (CG)on the big battery extending up toward a heavier front end to lift, but I think this is negligible overall once you get used to it and considering you're dropping up to 8-10 lbs off the full-powered version. Likely, if you're coming from the 32lb analogue bike, forward CG will be more awkward initially at least until muscle memory kicks in for more pop on the trail. IMHO

In example, the newest Orbea Rise M/H Shimano RS-60NM (considered to be one of the stronger climbers) series for 2023 are beefing up their downtubes (looks more symmetrical to me) in order to add their bigger 500 Wh juice-box by popular demand.

 

[Kenk3589]

Can the battery be removed if the motor is dismantled?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Can the battery be removed if the motor is dismantled?

Yep.

 

[Kenk3589]

Wish they could have made a latch like transition! That would make this similar to the relay.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Wish they could have made a latch like transition! That would make this similar to the relay.

They claim the battery cradle, locking mechanism, and cutout shaves off 2.5+ lbs off fram. But yeah, I was hesitant at first if not for the big 720Wh battery. Reckoned it was a decent tradeoff.

 

[Kenk3589]

do you guys know the wheelbase on this frame? and if you overfork the frame to 170, what kind of ht angle do we get?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

do you guys know the wheelbase on this frame? and if you overfork the frame to 170, what kind of ht angle do we get?

I don't know how much steeper the HA will be...

 

[Kenk3589]

Is it missing part of the chart? I feel like the typical measurement of chainstay length is with a slight angle and not exactly a horizontal measurement so you can't simply add CS and FC together.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Is it missing part of the chart? I feel like the typical measurement of chainstay length is with a slight angle and not exactly a horizontal measurement so you can't simply add CS and FC together.

You know what everybody else knows.

 

[thaeber]

do you guys know the wheelbase on this frame? and if you overfork the frame to 170, what kind of ht angle do we get?

Chart says fork length 572 mm. 170 mm fork is about 586 mm. This will slacken You head angle about 0.7 deg., ending up at appr. 63.8 deg.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Wish they could have made a latch like transition! That would make this similar to the relay.

That's the primary reason I'm probably going to skip on the Relay as that removable battery decision added weight, cost, and a failure point.

I've been in touch with Linda (very helpful btw) and there is a high probability I'm going to go with the CEF50.

I'd save so much money, that I could just take my saved cash and go buy a new AM pedal bike with the saved cash, if I so desired.

Here is my question: is this the EXACT same Motor as used in the Forestal? Mag case, Ti shafts, same programming? Furthermore, is the power curve programmable to try and improve how natural it feels?

 

[Suns_PSD]

Chart says fork length 572 mm. 170 mm fork is about 586 mm. This will slacken You head angle about 0.7 deg., ending up at appr. 63.8 deg.

My intention is to run a Mara Pro 210/55 I already have, and love. This will give me 161mm rear travel.
A -1 or -.5' headset, and likely stick with a 160mm fork.

I like a long Reach, but a short, seated cockpit with a steep sta.
Also don't like low BB heights.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Here is my question: is this the EXACT same Motor as used in the Forestal? Mag case, Ti shafts, same programming? Furthermore, is the power curve programmable to try and improve how natural it feels?

No one knows for sure at this point. Power curve and programmability options would be nice to see. If someone has knowledge of them, please post.

Only known is that the M820 spec is 75Nmmax/95Nmpeak cited from the Bafang-e website.

The EonDrive is tuned to 60 Nm by Forestal. If it weighs the same, it's probable that's really the same motor...but ya never know with Bafang.

Hopefully it's true to their numbers. And reviewers will produce some concrete comparisons to bear that out.

 

[Kenk3589]

I’ve never had a Bafang motor and this would be my first diy. How is the drag on bafang motors?

Given the lighter weight without the battery, I’m wondering if it would be possible to run without the battery on park days. Def gonna have to remove it for traveling purposes.

Spoke with Linda and an extra battery is 280ish usd. Way too reasonably priced… almost wondering its gonna explode on me?

 

[LAnton]

They promise me the M820 motor will be delivered in mid-February. We'll connect it to the besst and see what can be changed there. Since the CEF50 is delayed, I'll try to install it on the E10 frame using bad obscene words and a little tool. I really want to drive this motor.