SZZS specific CEF50-main thread (initial builds and troubleshooting related only)

[mike_kelly]

He already did:

• #491

I don't think the Bafang spline is compatible.
Not sure if the M820 is compatible with 500, 600 series either.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805088626808.html?pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%2418.00%21%249.90%21%21%21%21%21%402103247116872031175586395e04c4%2112000032447771990%21btf&_t=pvid%3Aa5e5aad1-f9f1-4b74-a21d-fd5870245c26&afTraceInfo=1005005274941560__pc__pcBridgePPC__xxxxxx__1687203117&spm=a2g0o.ppclist.product.mainProduct&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

The spider is compatible with the M510 and M600. They have slight differences, but they fit.they work. I have three motors M820, M510 and M600.

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[LAnton]

@LAnton could you please confirm. M510 spider will work on M820?

Yes. This model

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005003489871838.html?spm=a2g2w.orderdetail.0.0.7d2e4aa6KmaovM&sku_id=12000028612495528

46 Ebike Store

 

[zhukizhaba]

Hello everyone! I'm inspired by your builds guys and decided to try to build one as well. Hope you are open to newbie question, still reading all the threads related to the topic. I was going to sent inquiry to the manufacturer of CEF50, but before doing that would like to get some suggestions on the components listed on their alibaba profile. My plan so far is to order frame, motor(not sure about voltage), battery (BT 740). Long story short, from your experience any items you would exclude from the list if you order it again, or maybe recommend to replace (e.g. I can see display on the photo, but don't see it in the parts list). Thanks!

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Hello everyone! I'm inspired by your builds guys and decided to try to build one as well. Hope you are open to newbie question, still reading all the threads related to the topic. I was going to sent inquiry to the manufacturer of CEF50, but before doing that would like to get some suggestions on the components listed on their alibaba profile. My plan so far is to order frame, motor(not sure about voltage), battery (BT 740). Long story short, from your experience any items you would exclude from the list if you order it again, or maybe recommend to replace (e.g. I can see display on the photo, but don't see it in the parts list). Thanks!

I suspect that the peeps that have their builds up and running are still too busy riding. We've waited quite a while and some still are eagerly looking forward to their shipment.

I'm betting that a separate build thread will be created by those interested in painstakingly detailing components and associated links in the near future.

My build is a heavy Enduro rig, so not much interest by many for a PLUS 20 kg CEF50. So, no real plans to detail mine soon.

I suggest just look at previously posted build pics and then inquire directly on that posting or DM if you're able.

 

[mike_kelly]

Hello everyone! I'm inspired by your builds guys and decided to try to build one as well. Hope you are open to newbie question, still reading all the threads related to the topic. I was going to sent inquiry to the manufacturer of CEF50, but before doing that would like to get some suggestions on the components listed on their alibaba profile. My plan so far is to order frame, motor(not sure about voltage), battery (BT 740). Long story short, from your experience any items you would exclude from the list if you order it again, or maybe recommend to replace (e.g. I can see display on the photo, but don't see it in the parts list). Thanks!

Zhaosheng is not a bike shop so really the only thing you would order is the frame, motor, battery and display.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Zhaosheng is not a bike shop so really the only thing you would order is the frame, motor, battery and display.

Then just create your own lightweight masterpiece... hopefully.

I see 3 general sub categories:

1) Superlight short travel XC (38+ lbs),
2) Light medium travel trail (42 +lbs), or
3) Semi-light big travel enduro (45+ lbs).

Consequently, the CEF50 definitely has some options to customize to your desires.

I found the general rule of : go as high-end componentry as affordable to get the lighter results and likely more durable build for you! (Given equal battery size).

As I ride and load it up on my hitch rack, I definitely appreciate losing the 10-12 lbs off from my full-powered rig including increased agility on the trail...plus my lower back sure does like it too. (Yes mom, I lift with my legs!).

Great investment so far....

 

[zhukizhaba]

@mike_kelly @TCFlowClyde thank you! My question was about their frame kit mostly (wasn't sure about their cranks, which type of display is available etc).
Finally I placed an order yesterday, now it time to find the rest of the components which is some kind of challenge as well

 

[Polak_B]

can someone send a photo with the maximum suspension deflection and the lowered seat post? (Wheel 29)

I wonder if the AXS Reverb seatpost won't have the problem of the tire hitting the battery.
I wonder how much space there is

 

[Kenk3589]

@mike_kelly @TCFlowClyde thank you! My question was about their frame kit mostly (wasn't sure about their cranks, which type of display is available etc).
Finally I placed an order yesterday, now it time to find the rest of the components which is some kind of challenge as well

this is my first bike build up, and a lot of these guys have helped me along the way. I've asked multiple stupid questions to get it built and had to learn from trial and error.

-If you are going mullet, you can go 210x55 shock which lands at 165 mm travel. We are not sure if a 29inch rear wheel will be able to tolerate a 210x55 shock without buzzing the seat stay.
-Installing the chainring requires BBT-18 tool. Do not buy the LRT4 tool which someone mentioned previously.
-integrated cable routing Headset: IDK what the current status is but the initially shipped headsets had exposed sharp edge of aluminum cutting through the rubber of your cables. Nukeproof (neutron ZS56 was what it was called, I'd double check by searching this thread) makes proper ICR headsets that work with our bikes. I only purchased the top half and it has worked out just fine.
-The headtube is extremely long.. make sure you try to get a fork that is new or has longer steering tube length.. Bought my steering tube used and found out it was cut extremely short. I only have a 5 mm headset spacer and with the ICR headset, the cables are just crunched up.
-The mounting hardware tool is 22.2 mm. If you have a hard time fitting it, you need to chisel / shave off the paint. A 22 mm is too loose (I bought both).
-Replace the rear axle with a reliable company of your choice.
-PLEASE PLACE BLUE LOCTITE ON EVERYTHING RELATED TO YOUR MOTOR. Otherwise all your screws will fall off and you will have to reorder them.


Everything else: wheels, drivetrain, cockpit and dropper are all up to you and your budget.

 

[Myalteregohamish]

can someone send a photo with the maximum suspension deflection and the lowered seat post? (Wheel 29)

I wonder if the AXS Reverb seatpost won't have the problem of the tire hitting the battery.
I wonder how much space there is

View attachment 119440

I’d love to see the video of this being a problem in real life. Also spacers.

 

[Herculesridesebikes]

can someone send a photo with the maximum suspension deflection and the lowered seat post? (Wheel 29)

I wonder if the AXS Reverb seatpost won't have the problem of the tire hitting the battery.
I wonder how much space there is

View attachment 119440

Is this with a 210X50? I was hoping to run a 210X52.5 29er but looks like clearance will be an issue now or at least too close for comfort.

 

[Polak_B]

Is this with a 210X50? I was hoping to run a 210X52.5 29er but looks like clearance will be an issue now or at least too close for comfort.

this is a different bike, not a cef50. I'm also planning a 29er rear and a 210x52.5mm shock, but I'm afraid that I may have a problem like in the picture if I use the AXS Reverb seatpost.

That's why I'm asking someone who has a 29er to send a picture of the amount of space between the seatpost and the rear wheel at max suspension deflection

 

[Pinkee]

Ok so I am keen to hit the trigger on one of these, now that there are rumours of the 48v option.
How do we cantact Linda? I put an enquiry through on Alibaba, but it looks like it might have gone to Jean. Am I on the right track?

 

[zhukizhaba]

Ok so I am keen to hit the trigger on one of these, now that there are rumours of the 48v option.
How do we cantact Linda? I put an enquiry through on Alibaba, but it looks like it might have gone to Jean. Am I on the right track?

It looks like they work in two shifts, I was dealing with Jean but saw Linda was available in "chat" window next day

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Ok so I am keen to hit the trigger on one of these, now that there are rumours of the 48v option.
How do we cantact Linda? I put an enquiry through on Alibaba, but it looks like it might have gone to Jean. Am I on the right track?

I've dealt with Linda exclusively...nice but not always the most timely and accurate. But she is definitely responsive. Was Alibaba messaging as well.

Jean is lead sales as I understand it. Others have worked with her well from what I've heard.

So, Jean might be the more reliable of the two. She definitely has more power to make changes etc if she's sales director.

Others should feel free to weigh in if I'm not correct in my understanding.

 

[Herculesridesebikes]

Ok so I am keen to hit the trigger on one of these, now that there are rumours of the 48v option.
How do we cantact Linda? I put an enquiry through on Alibaba, but it looks like it might have gone to Jean. Am I on the right track?

I dealt with Jean she was very helpful and her responses were quick, I'm not sure on the status of the 48v system though. I would assume potentially more of a lead time. Maybe a silly question but what is the advantage of the Higher voltage anyway?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Virtually all newly designed commercial motors are all edging to where the real innovation in small DC motor design has been since about 2010, 48 volts. The real innovators seem to be now moving from 52 volts to 72 volts mainly to get a higher rpm with more torque at those levels ( you may notice the likes of Bosch are low rpm torque monsters at 36 volts ) using smaller and thus lighter wiring ( drone engines are driving this ) but for EBikes 48 volts is where in my opinion it will probably settle on mainly due to the risk of humans sticking fingers into places where it’s a danger, 60 volts and wet bodies allowing even a few milliamperes of current to cross the heart is enough to stop a heart beating.

 

[mike_kelly]

I think for our purpose it really does not matter between 36v, 43v or 48v. Since we have no idea if the manufacturers actaully change any of the wiring between versions it seems more down to what is available at the time of purchase to get you riding.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I think for our purpose it really does not matter between 36v, 43v or 48v. Since we have no idea if the manufacturers actaully change any of the wiring between versions it seems more down to what is available at the time of purchase to get you riding.

Ok Mike you're our resident electrical engineer, is this dumbed down interpretation acceptable for us laypeeps:

Basically, availability and/or convenience is king here. Both Bafang 36V and 48V have more 3rd party battery extenders out there potentially than the Bafang 43V. But due to higher torque potential of a lower voltage system at lower speeds, the 36 V motor in theory may be the most beneficial to E-mtbers looking to climb steeps and not overconsume the smaller battery prematurely?

Remember, I'm just taking a wild stab at it here!

 

[Pinkee]

I dealt with Jean she was very helpful and her responses were quick, I'm not sure on the status of the 48v system though. I would assume potentially more of a lead time. Maybe a silly question but what is the advantage of the Higher voltage anyway?

Like others have said. Mainly, higher volts means less amps for the same power output. Less amps means less heat. Every little bit helps.

So, I would prefer 43v over 36, but 43v is such an oddball system when looking for aftermarket gear (chargers, expansion batteries, etc). 48v is the next step up in common voltage sizes.

That and my m600 is 48v, so if I am careful, can share a charger when on the road.

 

[mike_kelly]

The only techinical difference is that a 43v battery for the same power needs to supply less current. So it is about the ligher wires needed to carry the lower current. But it depends if the batteries are made to take advantage of this lower requirement making the battery lighter or they are all made the same for economy of scale. Also whether it is a wash since you need more cells to make a 43v vs a 36v battery.
I think the availability of a battery of any kind and possible external batteries is more of a significant issue.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Like others have said. Mainly, higher volts means less amps for the same power output. Less amps means less heat. Every little bit helps.

So, I would prefer 43v over 36, but 43v is such an oddball system when looking for aftermarket gear (chargers, expansion batteries, etc). 48v is the next step up in common voltage sizes.

That and my m600 is 48v, so if I am careful, can share a charger when on the road.

Ahh, OK.

Basically, a 36V motor with thinner wires (AR = ) may overheat faster than 43V/48V motors, all things constant?

 

[mike_kelly]

No the motors are made to handle the voltage they are designed for...

 

[TCFlowClyde]

No the motors are made to handle the voltage they are designed for...

Cool...that's good to know.

Plus, I learned one thing else though all this. It looks like I was just smart enough not become an electrician, electrical engineer, or physicist.

I'll stick to riding the magic-bolt-pedal-machine in bliss.

 

[un..inc]

Don't get me wrong, I am quite educated in electrical engineering, I just don't understand why there are 3 different types for motors and even more batteries. That's bad for standardisation. Besides, otherwise you never know whether you can connect the range extender to yourself or not.
That still puts me off a bit, because I don't know what will become established after 1-2 years.
I also can't imagine that bafang really produces 3 different voltages for one motor. Especially because the voltage is not significantly different From 36 to 46 volts.

 

[Waynemarlow]

That and my m600 is 48v, so if I am careful, can share a charger when on the road.

Has anyone checked yet if a 43V unit will also run on a 48V battery ? My M600 48V unit will run quite happily on a 52V battery even though it is factory set for max 48V batteries. Huge advantages if we quietly could buy 43V motors and just plug on a 48V battery.

The other consideration if one were to DIY a battery, why not consider the old 18650 cells to get about a 500Wh battery that will fit the frame ?

 

[Waynemarlow]

36 V motor in theory may be the most beneficial to E-mtbers looking to climb steeps and not overconsume the smaller battery prematurely?

You are correct in that you are taking a wild stab. Typically a higher voltage motor will have a slightly larger stator with more windings to handle the increased power. That larger stator will increase the torque output over the smaller lower voltage motor.

The downside is that motor will not achieve max rpm as quickly as the smaller unit, but on an EBike this should make no difference to us the rider as we cannot increase our cadence anything like as fast as the motor.

Guys it’s been proven over and over that a higher volts motor should have more torque and power but manufacturers don’t quite work that way and instead have common parts across the entire range, simply changing output via computer control to get different characteristics including max power.

One only has to read the 400 or so pages of development on the TSDZ2 engine where now virtually every parameter of the engine can be changed by you the rider. The 48volt motor is far torquier and yet the best riding motor with anybody with a higher cadence is the 36volt motor run on 52volts.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

You are correct in that you are taking a wild stab. Typically a higher voltage motor will have a slightly larger stator with more windings to handle the increased power. That larger stator will increase the torque output over the smaller lower voltage motor.

The downside is that motor will not achieve max rpm as quickly as the smaller unit, but on an EBike this should make no difference to us the rider as we cannot increase our cadence anything like as fast as the motor.

Guys it’s been proven over and over that a higher volts motor should have more torque and power but manufacturers don’t quite work that way and instead have common parts across the entire range, simply changing output via computer control to get different characteristics including max power.

Ok. Care to qualify your statements. You're an electrician or electrical engineer too?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Electronics design and implementation of new products engineer some years ago. I spent years playing with both the BBS02 and then years playing with the TSDZ2 engine and finally just fitting a M600 and enjoying riding.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Electronics design and implementation of new products engineer some years ago. I spent years playing with both the BBS02 and then years playing with the TSDZ2 engine and finally just fitting a M600 and enjoying riding.

Well, hopefully you can appreciate attempts at simpler breakdowns of the original question. By far, most of us aren't EEs, and in good faith, are trying to better understand a very confusing Bafang company, and Emtb motors in general. I like their motors for the power and money (have four of them: M620, M600 both 48/43V, and now the M820 36V which is awesome ).

I don't think your explanations are as clear and less confusing as intended. They do come off as overly pedantic to the general audience, and fairly caustic in delivery.

One of the nice things about creating this thread originally way back in January was to provide collective, constructive, and supportive feedback on this new frame and motor. So far, so good.

My sense has been that 99% of the input on this rather long, and still growing thread hopefully has been beneficial. The other 1% honestly seems to have been somewhat deconstructive. So, overall a win!

My suggestion is that erring on the side of simplicity with a little more empathetic humor, if possible, may be more productive to win over, and educate a mostly non-engineering thread viewership. Jus' say'n sometimes repartee is just masked sarcasm.

Have that being said, I'm personally sticking with Mike Kelly's EE feedback. I think I understand it better. I rings more pragmatic. Plus, he does a good job of not making me feel too stupid on this subject.