After 1000 gear changes (quote Pinion on flat battery) you will be stuck in one gear. Just make sure you are in a good gear before the 999th change.
New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)
- Thread starter Mteam
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Monitor your battery better and know your approximate range and distances in advance. If you’re running low, switch to a lower power mode. Or use a larger battery. Do you run out of gas in your car too?
My point was not that you wanted a lighter bike. It was that the motor output makes little difference to the weight, it is the use of a smaller battery that is the bigger saving. In the case of the Pinion I doubt if they could save much motor weight by dropping the output as the main mass is from the gearbox.
There is of course the point that Gearbox EMTB's may not be suitable for the Lightweight crowd and you will just have to stay in the 1950's
I'm a bit jealous of those that live in real mountains. For those of us that are mountain bike fit and want to maintain but don't have real mountains, a mid-power e-bike makes more sense and is just a more enjoyable bike riding experience. My Weight Weenie-ism has not abated since jumping on e-bikes. I still find weight to be an important metric for overall biking enjoyment.
No idea if any manufacturer will be able to scale down the internal transmissions and save any real weight due to so much less torque but I suspect that Spesh will be cutting edge on this. I do love the idea of the internal transmission and all of the possibilities that it'll open up in suspension design. This space is going to change a lot in the coming years. That said, I installed an 11 sp X01 set up on my Relay and the gearing, shifting, cost, reliability & weight are all on point and I will be content with this for a long time to come.
FF e-bikes have been around and in higher quantities than good mid power options for some time now. I'd be curious to see sales numbers once the good mid-power options have been around a good bit longer as this will drive future development.
Mahle/Specialized SL motor, Bosch SX, Fazua, TQ etc. All the low power motors without gearboxes manage to be a lot (like over a kg) lighter than the full power options. If the motor is less powerful then the gearing from that motor down to crank speed can be lighter (as it has to cope with less torque/stress). In the case of the Pinion you could also argue that each of the last eight gears (4 pairs) to the final output could be lighter in the same way that Hyperdrive can be lighter than Linkglide.My point was not that you wanted a lighter bike. It was that the motor output makes little difference to the weight, it is the use of a smaller battery that is the bigger saving. In the case of the Pinion I doubt if they could save much motor weight by dropping the output as the main mass is from the gearbox.
There is of course the point that Gearbox EMTB's may not be suitable for the Lightweight crowd and you will just have to stay in the 1950's
I think that if they made an "SL" version of the Pinion MGU they could probably save well over 1kg and that is a very substantial percentage of the overall bike weight.
I’m all for lightening the load, but I also want full power and that’s why my Voima is 50lbs with a 40 on it. I intend to lighten the load even more once I get a 500w battery and spacer for shorter rides or bike park days. It will be cool to pop in either battery depending on the ride I’m doing. According to Bosch, the 500w battery is 6.6lbs without spacer and the 750 is 9.5lbs. So even with a spacer added, (so it will fit) I’d still lose about 2.5lbs. So that would put me in the 47ish pound range. Which I think will be a noticeable difference that I can feel on the trail. That being said, I can’t wait for the MGU to be available. That in combination with a belt drive Sonni and I think I could make it lighter than my Voima.
Pyr0
E*POWAH Master
I thought this was quite interesting
Light weight AND full power is what I strive for. It handles better, accelerates faster and brakes faster and even has better range. Win win in my book. It’s like an F1 car vs a big 4x4. I’ll take the F1. But to each their own.I've never really understood that "weight weening" with ebikes.
My Levo hasn't never felt heavy for me. Never. Power is the thing. Not weight.
Buy a carbon ultralight manual bike if scared of weight?
Yeah.Light weight AND full power is what I strive for. It handles better, accelerates faster and brakes faster and even has better range. Win win in my book. It’s like an F1 car vs a big 4x4. I’ll take the F1. But to each their own.
I like that powerful 4x4 monstertruck better than F1. My reaction speed is not enough for F1.
Thank you for this really interesting comment and advice, very helpful!Monitor your battery better and know your approximate range and distances in advance. If you’re running low, switch to a lower power mode. Or use a larger battery. Do you run out of gas in your car too?
Interesting video. Looking at the internals it looks a lot better than the Shimano motor. Although it has quite a few parts it looks very serviceable for a competent engineer. The Shimano is a nightmare to open up as all the electronics are so delicate and have to be removed to get the main bearings out. Shimano use phone sized cables and connectors which are really unsuitable for an ebike motor. I have said that I will not have another Shimano motor (we have 2 bikes with them atm). I would like to see the Bosch CX internals but given that they provide bearing kits for service it was my next chaice , until the Pinion turned up.
brigcampbell
Active member
Any reason the tensioner can't be slid towards rear wheel down the chainstay?
Does it need to be so close to the chainring?
Even move back 3-4 inches would help greatly.
The tensioner can be moved. On the gearbox only bikes (Zerode etc) with a belt the tensioner is tucked well away. The MGU one looks like it is part of the motor unit which may suit some bike builders but no reason it cannot be moved.
The standard Pinion tensioner has 5 different position settings and 2 positions for the belt roler...
At least when you see it like that, it looks less like a damping mechanism re-purposed from an office filing cabinet ...
It looks like it's about as far out of the way as they can get it really. There's not a lot of space and I don't think you could make one to mount it from above instead. An alternative design with a rotary damper/spring or torsion arm ? Might be better, but presumably wasn't practical/effective.
It's an MTB, so obviously at some point, someone's going to bosh it on a rock/log. Though you're still going to have ot be pretty unlucky to break it.
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Images taken from here : Germain pinion article translated to English
And just for the hell of it .. a 7 year old review of a Nicolai ION GPI. At least it's dirty.
Interestingly, Pinion quote the life of the gearbox as 60,000km then. No idea if that has increased over time with testing, though there aren't probably that many MTB's or EMTB's that do 60,000 km's in their lives.
Nicolai Ion GPI – the gearbox MTB of the future?
Progressive geometry paired with a complete lack of derailleur makes for a thrilling yet frustrating ride
www.bikeradar.com
Do we know what the warranty is on the MGU ?
Nice findAt least when you see it like that, it looks less like a damping mechanism re-purposed from an office filing cabinet ...
It looks like it's about as far out of the way as they can get it really. There's not a lot of space and I don't think you could make one to mount it from above instead. An alternative design with a rotary damper/spring or torsion arm ? Might be better, but presumably wasn't practical/effective.
It's an MTB, so obviously at some point, someone's going to bosh it on a rock/log. Though you're still going to have ot be pretty unlucky to break it.
Images taken from here : Germain pinion article translated to English
And just for the hell of it .. a 7 year old review of a Nicolai ION GPI. At least it's dirty.
Interestingly, Pinion quote the life of the gearbox as 60,000km then. No idea if that has increased over time with testing, though there aren't probably that many MTB's or EMTB's that do 60,000 km's in their lives.
Nicolai Ion GPI – the gearbox MTB of the future?
Progressive geometry paired with a complete lack of derailleur makes for a thrilling yet frustrating ride
Do we know what the warranty is on the MGU ?
the review,...just foud this:The YT algorithm is really generous today 
it's the 18 speed, probably the mgu is not any different, but maybe interesting for those that do a lot of technical climbing, the engagement angle and the way shifting is done(mgu electrically of course).
it's the 18 speed, probably the mgu is not any different, but maybe interesting for those that do a lot of technical climbing, the engagement angle and the way shifting is done(mgu electrically of course).Alexbn921
Well-known member
A company like Pole could incorporate this device into the frame in a clean way that keeps it tucked in and makes it lighter. This basically the only thing that would make me upgrade my Kenevo.
And another one on Belt vs Chain if you have time to watch, some useful information there...
Just doing some thinking here...one thing that got me interested in the video was that he mentioned(also heard that before somewhere) the frame for the belt needs to be stif(not move sideways) for the belt drive or the belt could skip of the rear cog.
I wonder how that is going to work with an emtb, as sideway forces on the rear triangle on an mtb/emtb are significant. It is true that in those situations(downhills) usually we don't pedal, but anyway it could be a point to look at for the future.
There is the belt snubber at the back that is keeping the belt from skipping over the teeth, possibly also marginally sideways to the outside, but not to the inside of the frame.
One of the requirements for the beltdrive is that the belt line needs to be perfectly straight, any sideways movement can put excessive strain on it. Could this mean that belt life on emtbs is going to be shorter or more prone to damage?
Just doing some thinking here...one thing that got me interested in the video was that he mentioned(also heard that before somewhere) the frame for the belt needs to be stif(not move sideways) for the belt drive or the belt could skip of the rear cog.
I wonder how that is going to work with an emtb, as sideway forces on the rear triangle on an mtb/emtb are significant. It is true that in those situations(downhills) usually we don't pedal, but anyway it could be a point to look at for the future.
There is the belt snubber at the back that is keeping the belt from skipping over the teeth, possibly also marginally sideways to the outside, but not to the inside of the frame.
One of the requirements for the beltdrive is that the belt line needs to be perfectly straight, any sideways movement can put excessive strain on it. Could this mean that belt life on emtbs is going to be shorter or more prone to damage?
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If you put the tensioner in the middle of the chainstay (for example) then it can't take up much slack.
Gates are very vocal in their warnings about tension and tensioners etc but I'm sure something could be done at the rear hub or elsewhere.
I wonder why they went with a compression spring? Surely a tension spring above the pivot would make more sense and would get it well out of the way?
Probably because this is a standard part that has been in their portfolio and fits several different types of bikes they equip with their gearboxes, belt, etc...or it's probably a generic Gates product just adjusted an renamed, don't know would need to do a little google research...
Yes you are correct, belt tension is crucial with these drives, as just one slip of/over the rings teeth can create irreparable damage to the belt, especially with the torque that is available on the emtb, so there is one plus for the chain drive(u use a chain link, or in case a chain slips, u know it's realy time to change it.
I am sure if this get going, they or other will create an emtb friendly tensioner.
brigcampbell
Active member
I would think eMTB torque is very low relative to other belt applications like snowmobiles and sea doos
Agreed, but belt size is probably sized appropriately for those applications. What I was going to with that is comparing human leg torque vs ebike motor+human leg torque
Alexbn921
Well-known member
Belts are used on heavily load touring bikes for 20k km without problems. Gates newest belts should be up to the challenge. If they are not, it's a relatively easy swap to the next generation that is specific to the even more powerful motors coming.
I know, I did the research, if you read back it's the tesioner and belt tension that's being discussed, I am implying that if there is lack of belt tension or a misalignment of belt line due to sideway rear triangle movement(mtb/emtb), just a single skip of belt over the teeth or a slip of belt of the ring can under the high emtb torque cause irreparable damage(ripping of the carbon strings within) thus weakening it significantly, check yt video at 7:30ish onwards.
On an emtb and rough terrain I can imagine situations like that. But we will see what time with it will bring. I'm hoping for the best.
luna87824
E*POWAH Master
So you had a chain tool and fixed it and finished your ride?
It is a valid point that a chain has one a dvantage over a carbon belt............ie it has some sideways flex, and will operate when not fully inline. It may well be that other manufacturers pursuing the combined motor/gearbox design, decide that retaining the chain rather than a carbon belt is more suitable for a full suspension emtb. After all the chain would not need to be as narrow or eavilly engineered as a chain that needs to move over a 12 speed cassette so could be pretty robust, suffer less wear and be cheap to buy ( e.g a fixie chain). Alternatively they may look for an alternative belt design that does have some sideways flex.
Unfortunately I had just gone for a quick spin and didn't have a chain tool, only a mile from home though.
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