New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)

[Waynemarlow]

But , a counter part to the argument for CVT is that it ultimately offers infinite gears/gear ranges - so more than 10 !

Most CVT's are set up so that you have an infinite gearing set to best mpg where the computer works out your driving pattern and sets the motor up accordingly and a sport mode which give definitive gear changes so that the driver can pick their gearing to suit their driving.

In our EMtb case it would be on the App as to how many gears you wanted ( this is just an artificial controlled gear to fool us humans )and at what effective ratios you wanted the bike to change, as in you could space the gears out to suit more climbing say or more road orientated, that is the beauty of computer control rather than fixed meshed gears.

You also would have the ability for the computer to work out where the most efficient rpm is for the motor and simply we would pedal at say 80rpm with the computer setting the gearing accordingly, great for maxing out the battery but for us it would feel pretty weird I would guess.

Guys lets not get too distracted from this new gearbox, it will be a pretty big innovation in Emtbs and will awaken the other brands to get their acts together in the trend towards auto gearing.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Most CVT's are set up so that you have an infinite gearing set to best mpg where the computer works out your driving pattern and sets the motor up accordingly and a sport mode which give definitive gear changes so that the driver can pick their gearing to suit their driving.

In our EMtb case it would be on the App as to how many gears you wanted ( this is just an artificial controlled gear to fool us humans )and at what effective ratios you wanted the bike to change, as in you could space the gears out to suit more climbing say or more road orientated, that is the beauty of computer control rather than fixed meshed gears.

Absolutely, with the Pinion unit we have something with fixed gears which is a tiny tiny bit like the Koenigsegg lightspeed box.

But at the same time we also have the Revonte and Driven's Orbit which both create CVT type solutions, which I won't go into here as they've been covered several times elsewhere already.

My point is (still concussed, went to open a cupboard and opened the curtains - so I might be talking complete crap). This is a thread about something which someone HAS CREATED, so surely the discussion is about what it IS and how we use it rather than what it could have been if it was entirely different and how we may have used it if it was entirely different - as those discussions already exist for the CVT alternatives ?!?!

 

[Nomad1]

You dont know what you talking about...

Have 12sp only because AXS and shifting usually 2 steps at once.

You dont know what you talking about...

Have 12sp only because AXS and shifting usually 2 steps at once.

if your referring to the bike I upgraded to a 12spd it actual is a Shimano xt and xtr combo with a 10-45 rhythm cassette. I do have another bike setup axs xx t-type setup and they actual recommend running that ebike version in single shift mode. Oh and by the way with my xt/xtr setup I can go threw the whole cassette in 3 shifts. Although I wouldn't recommend do that for most situations. Anyway the point is the 10 is not better than the 12 for emtbs it depends on the rider. Back to the hole gearbox thing it is promising but my opinion is it's not quite there yet. I am glad it's becoming a little more common(I have not seen any myself) as this will spark more refinement of it.

 

[G-Sport]

I guess the question is whether people will buy it.
As it stands I think they will.

Will it have flaws, yes. It can't possibly suit everyone in a single (alright two) version.

I think it's flaws will be around weight and efficiency. These won't matter a hoot to existing full power riders who want quick DH blasts with a lot of assistance on the climb back up.
But they will probably be a deal breaker for SL riders who want an experience as close as possible to a push bike and to do long distances with a nimble bike.

Hopefully there is an SL version in the works to compliment this.

 

[Biano44]

Why would Shimano or Sram develop anything like this?
It doesn’t make practical business sense for them…….
Less wear and tear = less consumables which = less £ for them.
The only way they will ever develop anything like this, is if someone else turns up with a fab product and it starts troubling their bottom line.

Let’s hope this MGU is everything we want it to be and that people start flocking to it in their droves.

It’s the only way we will get any progress.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Why would Shimano or Sram develop anything like this?
It doesn’t make practical business sense for them…….
Less wear and tear = less consumables which = less £ for them.
The only way they will ever develop anything like this, is if someone else turns up with a fab product and it starts troubling their bottom line.

Let’s hope this MGU is everything we want it to be and that people start flocking to it in their droves.

It’s the only way we will get any progress.

Bosch, Yamaha, Brose etc - they all have big gains to make here.

If / when they can create something that can make volume OEM sales - this in turn creates more revenue and marketshare for them, then this will mean that Shimano / SRAM will need to compete, even if it cannibilises existing drivetrain sales. But this will only affect the high end (to start with)

Remember Brose / Bosch / SRAM / Shimano's customers are not us, they are the OEM's who buy 10K units at a time MOQ's

I wonder if SRAM & Shimano will milk existing mech / cassette for next 4-5 years, whilst developing competing MGU products to compete with Pinion / Bosch etc on the high end commuter / emtb market

 

[Zimmerframe]

I wonder if SRAM & Shimano will milk existing mech / cassette for next 4-5 years, whilst developing competing MGU products to compete with Pinion / Bosch etc on the high end commuter / emtb market

Yup, I think we have a bit of a wait as things build up/move in this direction. Even if the MGU is widely accepted, it will take time to build up production and support to supply major manufacturers.

Just look at Fazua and TQ who struggle to produce enough for sales/spares/replacements yet they're a tiny part of the overall market place.

There's the Valeo unit too, but this doesn't seem to have made much ground in the MTB arena.

 

[G-Sport]

I expect that the pinion mgu is going to cost about the same as the existing opinion gearbox AND a standard full power motor, ie. quite a lot.
Any competing offering from Shimano or SRAM (or others) is probably going to be similar, ie. Motor plus full SRAM transmission price.
This leaves a LOT of space in the market for the existing derailleur tech for a long time to come.
Prices for mgu's won't come down until supply can match demand so we are probably looking at a good few years before there is a GX level mgu.

If SRAM and Shimano ignore this advance they will lose the flagship end of the market to the likes of pinion, which probably isn't a huge worry financially at this stage (because the bulk midrange OEM market is where they really make the money) but it doesn't bode well for the future.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Bet Brose ( already openly talked about ) Shimano SRAM Yam have units already being tested.

 

[Mikerb]

Not sure why folk are talking a bout SRAM or even Shimano. EMTB is dominated as far as motors are concerned by players not previously engaged in the bike market...............the exception being Shimano of course. It is a matter of "core competence".......and I wonder who in fact makes motors for Shimano because that is hardly their core business.
The obvious way in which motor manufacturers like Bosch, and Brose can develop combined motor and gerabox units is by partnership. The interesting player here in my book is Yamaha since they would probably not need a partner to produce their own motor/gearbox unit.

 

[Biano44]

Not sure why folk are talking a bout SRAM or even Shimano. EMTB is dominated as far as motors are concerned by players not previously engaged in the bike market...............the exception being Shimano of course. It is a matter of "core competence".......and I wonder who in fact makes motors for Shimano because that is hardly their core business.
The obvious way in which motor manufacturers like Bosch, and Brose can develop combined motor and gerabox units is by partnership. The interesting player here in my book is Yamaha since they would probably not need a partner to produce their own motor/gearbox unit.

I only mentioned Shimano and SRAM as they are the ones who will lose out if everyone is buying MGU bikes.
It’s an open secret that SRAM have a motor and Pinion (among others) may have just made it ‘old hat’ before it’s even hit the market.

People saying the MGU will be so much more cost have a point but it’s not like the new SRAM AXS gears are cheap is it?
I don’t know anyone who enjoys the cost or more specifically the cleaning and maintenance of a regular E-MTB.
An MGU will go some way to addressing that.

 

[emtbeast]

For all wondering about the price of the unit... this was the price on the site that supplies the rest of the electrical components for the bikes with the Pinion MGU, it was listed before the Eurobike release...now it says not avaliable, only possible to order directly from Pinion.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Kind of funny that a full electric motor and transmission cost less than an Eagle Transmission groupset.

 

[Onetime]

Kind of funny that a full electric motor and transmission cost less than an Eagle Transmission groupset.

Just shows you how ridiculous regular group set prices are. Add the fact that the MGU is virtually indestructible and maintenance free, why would anyone not get the MGU if it was an option?

 

[RiderOnTheStorm]

Add the fact that the MGU is virtually indestructible and maintenance free, why would anyone not get the MGU if it was an option?

Well... MGU complexity, not having a single point of failure, ease of repair and self serviceability, no reliabilty track records, parts availability, etc.

Knowing that I can service and repair most components on my eMTB myself is big plus for me so I'm in no rush to jump on the MGU bandwagon

 

[G-Sport]

Nearly all the existing motors are not self serviceable either and the existing pinion gearbox has a very good reputation for reliability.
Very little serviceability with any electronic derailleur either. So I don't really see a big difference there.

 

[Nomad1]

Just shows you how ridiculous regular group set prices are. Add the fact that the MGU is virtually indestructible and maintenance free, why would anyone not get the MGU if it was an option?

Could be not everything is dialed in with them. We haven't be riding them so we don't know the ins and outs of them. It's going to be a bit of time before thing are Ironed out. I say don't be so quick to jump either way.

 

[RiderOnTheStorm]

So I don't really see a big difference there.

I see a big difference here. I would be able to easily service a classic rear transmission (cassette+derailleur) on my own vs servicing a complex, integrated gearbox. Of course YMMV.

 

[G-Sport]

I see a big difference here. I would be able to easily service a classic rear transmission (cassette+derailleur) on my own vs servicing a complex, integrated gearbox. Of course YMMV.

When you say "service", what is there to do? Replace cable and jockey wheels is about it. Everything else is just "buy a new one".
Mgu eliminates gear damage from debris and (hopefully) crashes/impacts and reduces lubrication by probably two orders of magnitude.
I need to wash and relube my chain after every ride for half the year, I need to buy two chains two sprockets and a cassette every year/2000miles. This is a huge hassle and expense that I'd be willing to make a lot of compromises for.

 

[Streddaz]

When you say "service", what is there to do? Replace cable and jockey wheels is about it. Everything else is just "buy a new one".
Mgu eliminates gear damage from debris and (hopefully) crashes/impacts and reduces lubrication by probably two orders of magnitude.
I need to wash and relube my chain after every ride for half the year, I need to buy two chains two sprockets and a cassette every year/2000miles. This is a huge hassle and expense that I'd be willing to make a lot of compromises for.

I agree, you don't really "service" your drivetrain apart from cleaning and lubing. You just use it until it wears out. With the MGU you only change the oil once a year and you will not have to be replacing chains and cassettes a few times a year. Sure it's new and will need to be proven but so are most of the motors on the market out there too.

 

[luna87824]

A belt is better than a chain.

Not really..... A car with a timing belt needs to be changed around every 60,000 miles, but one with a timing chain last the life of the motor!

 

[Alexbn921]

Not really..... A car with a timing belt needs to be changed around every 60,000 miles, but one with a timing chain last the life of the motor!

Way to cherry pick an example. Lets talk specific's. A gates belt drive on a bike requires no maintenance and lasts 10,000+ miles. A chain needs to be lubed every 25ish miles with a full clean every 500 miles. They also only last about 2500 miles.

At power levels greater than 250ish watts belts are also more efficient.

Better on maintenance and better on longevity. Overall, significantly cheaper to run.

 

[Onetime]

Way to cherry pick an example. Lets talk specific's. A gates belt drive on a bike requires no maintenance and lasts 10,000+ miles. A chain needs to be lubed every 25ish miles with a full clean every 500 miles. They also only last about 2500 miles.

At power levels greater than 250ish watts belts are also more efficient.

Better on maintenance and better on longevity. Overall, significantly cheaper to run.

Not to mention cassette and chainring wear and replacement as well as the chain. And bonus, there is no chain slap with a belt, no belt stretching, it’s lighter and it’s much quieter! Win, win, win!

 

[Nomad1]

Way to cherry pick an example. Lets talk specific's. A gates belt drive on a bike requires no maintenance and lasts 10,000+ miles. A chain needs to be lubed every 25ish miles with a full clean every 500 miles. They also only last about 2500 miles.

At power levels greater than 250ish watts belts are also more efficient.

Better on maintenance and better on longevity. Overall, significantly cheaper to run.

It's not 25ish miles. Also why aren't belts all over the place in the bicycle world?

 

[G-Sport]

It's not 25ish miles. Also why aren't belts all over the place in the bicycle world?

Because they only work with singlespeed, geared hubs or a gearbox, plus you need a frame designed to allow it to be fitted.
In disciplines where longevity, and reliability are super important belts often are the first choice. Lots of round the world riders etc prefer belt.

 

[Husky430]

Where do I sign up to get in the que for one

 

[fasterjason]

why do you think 10speeds are ideal?

I have been upgrading my Trek Rail bikes from 12 speed to 11 speed for the past three years, mainly because of cost, durability, and the ability to run road cassettes for flat terrain and racing (drivetrain wear is spread over more cogs, and ideal cadence for a given range of velocity). I am getting ready to install 10 speed on my 7 because I have a stockpile of new 10sp chains and cassettes. I don't see the need for anything bigger than 46t on a cassette, and honestly a 11-36 10sp will work great in 95% of situations.

 

[Islandtrader]

As someone who lives in the US, I feel we should start reaching out to smaller big companies that sell bikes in the states to express our interest in them starting to build bikes with the Pinion mgu. I could see companies like Orbea, Canyon, Marin, Polygon, etc being able to make it happen if the interest is there. Or am I dreaming? As most of the brands that are initially jumping on this are strictly sold in Europe, I just really hope we don't get overlooked.

 

[Nomad1]

Because they only work with singlespeed, geared hubs or a gearbox, plus you need a frame designed to allow it to be fitted.
In disciplines where longevity, and reliability are super important belts often are the first choice. Lots of round the world riders etc prefer belt.

So, what you're saying is it has its pros and cons So more food for thought is that in the motorcycle industry they didn't swap all all the dirt bikes to belt. My point is the different systems have pros and cons.

 

[Alexbn921]

So, what you're saying is it has its pros and cons So more food for thought is that in the motorcycle industry they didn't swap all all the dirt bikes to belt. My point is the different systems have pros and cons.

Your mothers uncle doesn't like them is not a con.

How about you provide some actual information the the subject? What are the pros and cons? Not on a car, not on a moto, but on a gearbox emtb.