New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)

[Shark58]

Now tell me the price!

Simplon has published the 2024 price list.
The RAPCON Pmax Pinion starts at 9,999€ for EU countries. That does include the 1.12 motor with 720Wh battery, Gates belt drive, simple 150 mm front and rear suspension from Rockshox, SRAM DB8 brakes and DT Swiss 1900 wheels.

As with all Simplon bikes you can do some extensive configurations and I built a bike more to my liking. Motor, battery and belt as above, 170 mm front and rear with Fox 38 Factory and Fox X2 Factory, Shimano 8120 brakes with 220 and 203 mm disks. This will give you a 11,500€ list price.

 

[Kimmoi]

I'm not worried about belt, the tensioner below bb worries me.

And those three(only) bikes that will have Pinion now have all low bb's
And "old school" geometry also.
Low bb and that tensioner and rock gardens..

That's a shame and makes me wait when there's better options, if there ever will?
Simplon, Bulls and Rotwild are not for me; geometry is what it is.
And Bulls is onlyone which will be available in Finland.
Bulls has monkeylink and integrated tail lights which is great, i do lot of commute also. It is very dark here in Finland at winter.Very dark.
But if geo is same that earlier models, no thanks.

Luckily my Levo is still very much alive, i have no hurry. Better wait and see what is coming.
Enjoying with Levo at the meantime.

 

[Shark58]

And "old school" geometry also.

Why do you say that?

Simplon has not yet published any geo for the 2024 Rapcon Pmax Pinion.
But if they follow he same principal geo which was introduced for the 2023 Rapcon Pmax CX and Rapcon Pmax TQ, the geo will be far from old school.

 

[Onetime]

For anyone wondering about gearbox drag and beltdrive in tough conditions, recommend checking out this guy's yt video. It gives you broader picture about everything and If you ask me, the ebike's motor power remedies most of the slightly negative aspects of drag and he describes a slightly different solution also.

This seems like it would be a perfect application for the Voima since it has a swingarm it wouldn’t need a split in the rear triangle like a regular bike. You would just need to remove the rear wheel to change the belt, if and when it’s ever needed. There are so many positives on this system, I can’t wait for the competition to start producing theirs. It’s win win for everyone. I want the new Onni ebike, but only if it’s fitted with the Pinion, or future Bosch race motor equivalent, (internally geared with belt drive and auto shift option and derestrictable ). P.s, I think all of the other big manufacturers, SRAM, Shimano Bosch and Brose are all shitting bricks right now. They’re going to have to play catch up real soon or they’re about to loose a huge market share.

 

[Kimmoi]

Why do you say that?

Simplon has not yet published any geo for the 2024 Rapcon Pmax Pinion.
But if they follow he same principal geo which was introduced for the 2023 Rapcon Pmax CX and Rapcon Pmax TQ, the geo will be far from old school.

That's true, and Simplon has best geo of those three.
And my 2021 Levo isn't the "newest" geo, i like very much of riding with it though.

Edit: there’s 2023 geo.

2023 SIMPLON Rapcon Pmax Pinion first ride review - Is this the eMTB gearbox revolution?

Testing the 2023 Rapcon Pmax Pinion, SIMPLON’s e-mountain bike with the brand new Pinion MGU motor/gearbox unit. Is this the beginning of the gearbox revolution?

ebike-mtb.com

head- and seat angles are pretty nice. But there’s no reseller for Simplon in Finland.
Simplon is only one of those three which i would take.
Bigger battery is only available for L and XL sized bikes.

 

[Suns_PSD]

That's true, and Simplon has best geo of those three.
And my 2021 Levo isn't the "newest" geo, i like very much of riding with it though.

Edit: there’s 2023 geo.

2023 SIMPLON Rapcon Pmax Pinion first ride review - Is this the eMTB gearbox revolution?

Testing the 2023 Rapcon Pmax Pinion, SIMPLON’s e-mountain bike with the brand new Pinion MGU motor/gearbox unit. Is this the beginning of the gearbox revolution?

ebike-mtb.com

head- and seat angles are pretty nice. But there’s no reseller for Simplon in Finland.
Simplon is only one of those three which i would take.
Bigger battery is only available for L and XL sized bikes.

I enjoyed reading the review.

She's a little chunky for my tastes and needs however. That's a 56# medium with no pedals, inserts or heavy tires. 60#s+ how I'd want that bike personally.

I'd still choose the HP version of the Rapcon.

I did try to buy one but they currently won't sell to the US.

 

[emtbeast]

This seems like it would be a perfect application for the Voima since it has a swingarm it wouldn’t need a split in the rear triangle like a regular bike. You would just need to remove the rear wheel to change the belt, if and when it’s ever needed. There are so many positives on this system, I can’t wait for the competition to start producing theirs. It’s win win for everyone. I want the new Onni ebike, but only if it’s fitted with the Pinion, or future Bosch race motor equivalent, (internally geared with belt drive and auto shift option and derestrictable ). P.s, I think all of the other big manufacturers, SRAM, Shimano Bosch and Brose are all shitting bricks right now. They’re going to have to play catch up real soon or they’re about to loose a huge market share.

Yes the Voima would probably be a perfect bike for the belt, if you like the design of it(I personally do not, but that's a different story)...
Although there is a looot to like about the Pinion MGU, it has a few flaws that according to 》bike-magazin.de interview with the people from Pinion 《 could be ironed out until release...really hope so, will be following the progress. I also wouldn't jump on the first train...surely there are guys that will do reviews, etc...
I doubt the big brands are in any crisis and will jump on this train quickly...e-mtb mid motor market and emtb parts market is huge, big money is in question, there are contracts that are signed for years ahead.
Only time will tell

 

[bazxa]

Great development, it will take a while to reach Australia. New suspension tuning and some learning. Time to put pennies away.

 

[Kimmoi]

This seems like it would be a perfect application for the Voima since it has a swingarm it wouldn’t need a split in the rear triangle like a regular bike. You would just need to remove the rear wheel to change the belt, if and when it’s ever needed. There are so many positives on this system, I can’t wait for the competition to start producing theirs. It’s win win for everyone. I want the new Onni ebike, but only if it’s fitted with the Pinion, or future Bosch race motor equivalent, (internally geared with belt drive and auto shift option and derestrictable ). P.s, I think all of the other big manufacturers, SRAM, Shimano Bosch and Brose are all shitting bricks right now. They’re going to have to play catch up real soon or they’re about to loose a huge market share.

This!
Pole's factory is located about 15km from here where i live.
I hope so so much that they will do Pinion bike. It would be just perfect.
Voima with Pinion. OMG.

 

[Biano44]

A lot of fans for Pole bikes.
After watching Robs video on Pole bikes, I’m pretty sure if you called or emailed them they would make you a version with an MGU provided they could get one from Pinion.

 

[Dado]

A lot of fans for Pole bikes.
After watching Robs video on Pole bikes, I’m pretty sure if you called or emailed them they would make you a version with an MGU provided they could get one from Pinion.

Thats not so easy, it is for hundreds hours of designing and testing. Rear swingarm needs to be redesigned also.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Guys as much as I admire this gearbox motor setup, it’s full of unnecessary gears. Gears are old school in the car world where in the lower powered cars CVT rules. Now we already have Harmonic Pin and planetary gears which can deal with the motor rpm, computer controlled CVT can deal with the other 12speeds you are looking for ( not sure why you need 12spd when 10spd is ideal for EMtbs ) making a gearbox / motor combo with so many less moving parts and probably 2/3rds the size and weight.

Not knocking it though, it’s a great 1st gen proven gearbox now mated to a motor.

 

[Dado]

Guys as much as I admire this gearbox motor setup, it’s full of unnecessary gears. Gears are old school in the car world where in the lower powered cars CVT rules. Now we already have Harmonic Pin and planetary gears which can deal with the motor rpm, computer controlled CVT can deal with the other 12speeds you are looking for ( not sure why you need 12spd when 10spd is ideal for EMtbs ) making a gearbox / motor combo with so many less moving parts and probably 2/3rds the size and weight.

Not knocking it though, it’s a great 1st gen proven gearbox now mated to a motor.

Try to do it over CVT, harmonic gearbox or planetary if you think you can make it better. I would say engineers from Porsche knows why they choose this design.

This is good solution and I am surprised they squeezed so many gears into such a small area. Also is great it is in oil.
Question will be what drag it would have. This is for me not so important as on ebikes you usually riding with motor support.

I agree, for emtb no need to have 12speeds. I would go with 8 and good range - 550% is enough.
4 gears to rotor and 2 gears to pedals.

 

[Lee Dove]

Guys as much as I admire this gearbox motor setup, it’s full of unnecessary gears. Gears are old school in the car world where in the lower powered cars CVT rules. Now we already have Harmonic Pin and planetary gears which can deal with the motor rpm, computer controlled CVT can deal with the other 12speeds you are looking for ( not sure why you need 12spd when 10spd is ideal for EMtbs ) making a gearbox / motor combo with so many less moving parts and probably 2/3rds the size and weight.

Not knocking it though, it’s a great 1st gen proven gearbox now mated to a motor.

The disadvantages of planetary gears are their complex construction and higher power loss compared to spur gears. As the power is transmitted through at least two meshed teeth, the power dissipation is double that of a simple spur gear.

CVT also has a higher complexity and power drain compared to spur gears.

The losses are less significant on cars as they have more total power.

 

[Waynemarlow]

CVT also has a higher complexity and power drain compared to spur gears.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, car designers want to eek the most efficient gearbox with least energy losses to get best mpg. The Jap designs have great mpg and have CVT by using optimum rev ranges which a computer conrolled CVT allows. Complexity of computer control is todays norm of which the Pinion gear change is a prime example.

The advantages of possibly three gears in mesh on the planetary system is a very small overall size of gear cluster giving a greater reduction in rpm. We want small and light, I would take the itsy bitsy extra drag on a motored system ( not human powered ) for small and light any day. The pin ring TQ / Trek engine backs that up nicely.

 

[DogRanger]

Actually, the reason the new Pinion set up appeals to me is the similarities with a dual-clutch transmission, the most modern of all automotive transmissions. I have driven several versions and when well done I enjoy them immensely. More convenient yet as efficient as a traditional manual and far more fun than any automatic or CVT. And this is exactly what I would hope to get from an eMTB (or any bike): a combination of efficiency and fun!

 

[Zimmerframe]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, car designers want to eek the most efficient gearbox with least energy losses to get best mpg. The Jap designs have great mpg and have CVT by using optimum rev ranges which a computer conrolled CVT allows. Complexity of computer control is todays norm of which the Pinion gear change is a prime example.

The advantages of possibly three gears in mesh on the planetary system is a very small overall size of gear cluster giving a greater reduction in rpm. We want small and light, I would take the itsy bitsy extra drag on a motored system ( not human powered ) for small and light any day. The pin ring TQ / Trek engine backs that up nicely.

I have a concussion so excuse me if I sound short/grumpy/stupid

Instead of complaining about the gearbox(s) 9/12 speed that pinion have come up with in the MGU, why not accept that as one solution and then compare it to the other solutions which appear to tick all your boxes. Like the ones mentioned earlier and the Revonte, also mentioned earlier. There will be several different approaches. This is a great step. It seems a bit pointless to go "yeah, that's great, but if I was doing it I'd ... bla bla bla - you didn't".

Don't forget continental tried a CVT one years ago with the nuvinci system in the motor as a combined MGU and gave up with it, so it's obviously not as cut and dried as just lobbing a couple of bits of crap together in the shed.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Instead of complaining about the gearbox(s) 9/12 speed that pinion have come up with in the MGU, why not accept that as one solution

Not knocking it though, it’s a great 1st gen proven gearbox now mated to a motor.

Did I not say that ? The advantage with this unit is it already has had a huge field test with the non motored version, something we should welcome.

 

[Biano44]

Thats not so easy, it is for hundreds hours of designing and testing. Rear swingarm needs to be redesigned also.

Yeah, I get that. But I’m sure he’ll have to do it at some point anyway so sooner, the better.

 

[Semmelrocc]

I had the opportunity to test ride the Simplon Rapcon Pmax Pinion during my Eurobike visit on Saturday. It was a ten minute ride on a test parcours (including uphill and "downhill" sections through a parking garage), so plenty of opportunities to riding slow and fast, even beyond the 25 kph limit.

The bike was set to manual shifting only. The motor has several support modes and is quite punchy in the highest mode – if you want to, you can reach the support limit fairly quickly, and trying to accelerate beyond the limit felt very hard (probably like most other FF eebs – sorry, I'm used to my Levo SL).
The bike feels well planted, but not heavy. Due to the traffic I didn't try jumping or dangerous braking maneuvers, so I couldn't test, if the rear feels noticeably lighter than on common bikes.

So what about shifting? Of course I immediately tried to torture the bike by shifting under load. The Pinion gearbox (almost) delivers as advertised: shifting is buttery smooth, even hardly noticeable (as well as the motor noise – barely noticeable)! No problem to shift under load – except between gears 8 and 9! In my test this was the only noticeable gear change that did not feel healthy to do while putting lots of power on the pedal. The gear change between 4 and 5 is supposed to be noticeable as well, but that will probably only be a "problem" when putting too much load on the pedals while on a climb. I could not really test that.

Overall, it's a very promising concept and it will be exciting to see, if the Pinion MGU will stand the test of time and what solutions other manufacturers are going to come up with. I personally can imagine myself riding a gear box eMTB with belt drive in the future.

 

[Nomad1]

Guys as much as I admire this gearbox motor setup, it’s full of unnecessary gears. Gears are old school in the car world where in the lower powered cars CVT rules. Now we already have Harmonic Pin and planetary gears which can deal with the motor rpm, computer controlled CVT can deal with the other 12speeds you are looking for ( not sure why you need 12spd when 10spd is ideal for EMtbs ) making a gearbox / motor combo with so many less moving parts and probably 2/3rds the size and weight.

Not knocking it though, it’s a great 1st gen proven gearbox now mated to a motor.

why do you think 10speeds are ideal?

 

[Islandtrader]

I wonder if it's going to even be possible to find an e-mtb spec'd with the 9-speed unit. I would prefer the nine speed with it's fewer parts and slightly less weight but I have a feeling they're all going to come with the 12-speed.

 

[Onetime]

I wonder if it's going to even be possible to find an e-mtb spec'd with the 9-speed unit. I would prefer the nine speed with it's fewer parts and slightly less weight but I have a feeling they're all going to come with the 12-speed.

Hopefully whoever sells them will give the customer the option of which one they want. I agree that 12 speed isn’t really needed with e-power. Lighter weight with fewer moving parts is what I would choose. That’s why I’m currently running 11 speed with 10-42 x 32 on mine. It’s much lighter and has plenty of range.

 

[Waynemarlow]

why do you think 10speeds are ideal?

12 speed cassettes are designed for analogue bikes to keep us humans in a middle to high cadence where we are most efficient in converting our energy into pedalling force. To enable that we need very narrow gear ratio differences between each gear set which means lots of gears ( remember the 3 x 9 setups we used to have ) .

Emtbs on the other hand tend to like slightly lower motor revs where the torque of the motor and best efficiency is. Couple that with us humans performing better at higher cadences and we suddenly if we add the two energies together, we now have a much broader power band. Add in all the usual bollocks of bigger chains wider teeth etc on the drive train and its winner winner for the 10spd setups.

But also think along the lines of converting to 10spd you are going to save enough money in a year to go on holiday for a week, where you will probably do more riding in that week than you have in the previous two months, had a great time with your mates and will look back and wonder why you really thought you needed 12 speeds.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I wonder if it's going to even be possible to find an e-mtb spec'd with the 9-speed unit. I would prefer the nine speed with it's fewer parts and slightly less weight but I have a feeling they're all going to come with the 12-speed.

I changed back to an 8spd wide ratio 13/48 Suntour rear mech for a bit of fun and found the gear ratios just too wide from my human perspective ( I also was riding analogue at the time ), the motor didn't seem to mind, easily coping with the large change in gear ratios, but pedalling cadence wise it did feel a bit strange.

We also have to consider those of us who have deresticted as you will have a larger front sprocket to account for the wider speed range, each wider ratio will feel magnified the larger the front sprocket.

 

[Nomad1]

12 speed cassettes are designed for analogue bikes to keep us humans in a middle to high cadence where we are most efficient in converting our energy into pedalling force. To enable that we need very narrow gear ratio differences between each gear set which means lots of gears ( remember the 3 x 9 setups we used to have ) .

Emtbs on the other hand tend to like slightly lower motor revs where the torque of the motor and best efficiency is. Couple that with us humans performing better at higher cadences and we suddenly if we add the two energies together, we now have a much broader power band. Add in all the usual bollocks of bigger chains wider teeth etc on the drive train and its winner winner for the 10spd setups.

But also think along the lines of converting to 10spd you are going to save enough money in a year to go on holiday for a week, where you will probably do more riding in that week than you have in the previous two months, had a great time with your mates and will look back and wonder why you really thought you needed 12 speeds.

12 speed cassettes are designed for analogue bikes to keep us humans in a middle to high cadence where we are most efficient in converting our energy into pedalling force. To enable that we need very narrow gear ratio differences between each gear set which means lots of gears ( remember the 3 x 9 setups we used to have ) .

Emtbs on the other hand tend to like slightly lower motor revs where the torque of the motor and best efficiency is. Couple that with us humans performing better at higher cadences and we suddenly if we add the two energies together, we now have a much broader power band. Add in all the usual bollocks of bigger chains wider teeth etc on the drive train and its winner winner for the 10spd setups.

But also think along the lines of converting to 10spd you are going to save enough money in a year to go on holiday for a week, where you will probably do more riding in that week than you have in the previous two months, had a great time with your mates and will look back and wonder why you really thought you needed 12 speeds.

one of my emtb was converted to a 12 speed to get better efficiency and higher top end along with smaller step between gears. The notion that the 12 speed is for analogue is bs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you can power through your in the right gear.

 

[Nomad1]

I still think the gear box has a little ways to go at this point. This one kinda undermines part of the idea of it by having that tension were it is. The derailer isn't dead.

 

[Dado]

one of my emtb was converted to a 12 speed to get better efficiency and higher top end along with smaller step between gears. The notion that the 12 speed is for analogue is bs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you can power through your in the right gear.

You dont know what you talking about...

Have 12sp only because AXS and shifting usually 2 steps at once.

 

[paquo]

one of my emtb was converted to a 12 speed to get better efficiency and higher top end along with smaller step between gears. The notion that the 12 speed is for analogue is bs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you can power through your in the right gear.

i think so. On my bosch powered trek rail it is more of a torque monster so it is easier to pull through from low cadence but on the ep8 bike power comes on at a higher rpm so it benefits more from 12 speeds

 

[Zimmerframe]

12 speed cassettes are designed for analogue bikes to keep us humans in a middle to high cadence where we are most efficient in converting our energy into pedalling force. To enable that we need very narrow gear ratio differences between each gear set which means lots of gears ( remember the 3 x 9 setups we used to have ) .

Emtbs on the other hand tend to like slightly lower motor revs where the torque of the motor and best efficiency is. Couple that with us humans performing better at higher cadences and we suddenly if we add the two energies together, we now have a much broader power band. Add in all the usual bollocks of bigger chains wider teeth etc on the drive train and its winner winner for the 10spd setups.

But also think along the lines of converting to 10spd you are going to save enough money in a year to go on holiday for a week, where you will probably do more riding in that week than you have in the previous two months, had a great time with your mates and will look back and wonder why you really thought you needed 12 speeds.

I can't agree or disagree as I've never ridden this setup.

But .... for the sake of discussion.

Effectively what you're saying and I'm sure what many agree with. 10 speed on an EMTB makes for a robust and economical transmission solution. Cassettes & chains are generally long lived (even, to a degree, for the mechanically insensitive). I still have a whole setup here in a box as backup which probably cost less than a single SRAM T-type cog.

But , a counter part to the argument for CVT is that it ultimately offers infinite gears/gear ranges - so more than 10 !

Is there a best. I think as usual it will depend on the rider and the terrain he rides. Someone might ride fairly undulating terrain and a 10 speed standard works perfectly. But someone else might mix things up and ride super steep climbs but also wants to add a bit of speed at 60kph when you're heading into a feature - that sucks on a 10 speed unless you've somehow introduced grandma's chainring and then you're screwed on steep technical climbs - turbo or not. I will never understand the argument on forums that "What works for me is obviously the best for everyone". Having the widest range of possibilities is surely the best for EVERYONE ?

Don't forget, 9 speed to 12 speed, for mechanical simplicity, only takes out one gear. it's clearly a composite box so you have 3*4 or 3*3. If you're mass producing, for the sake of 100g, the 12 speed has to be the logical way to go if you're developed it in the same casing.

Add in auto shifting and who cares if it's 9 or 12. Surely the "I ONLY WANT 9" group, would be none the wiser ? It's just always in the right gear. What more could you want.