New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)

[Dado]

No worries, Emtbeast. Yes, your statements are all true. I do understand why we need more voltage, especially at high power.

Did also have 60V system.

My opinion is, at these power levels, lets say up to kW, doesnt matter if 36V or 48V. If 20A or 15A.

But back to Pinion.
Is that a small dc motor which engaging gears?

 

[emtbeast]

No worries, Emtbeast. Yes, your statements are all true. I do understand why we need more voltage, especially at high power.

Did also have 60V system.

My opinion is, at these power levels, lets say up to kW, doesnt matter if 36V or 48V. If 20A or 15A.

But back to Pinion.
Is that a small dc motor which engaging gears?

Yes indeed it is, Pinion has a great reputation for bicycle gearboxes, so that part of the unit is surly going to perform, the question is what motor they used, only info they gave its a downgrade from an industrial application brushless dc motor.

Anyway time and the first adopters will tell. The first things that go to dust on emtb motors are driveshaft bearings...I wonder how the serviceability of the unit is.

It is an interesting step for ebikes...I hope it catches up...don't really know if the big brands will leave their signed contracts with drivetrain manufacturers, but if it grows slowly it will force them to produce something of their own...

 

[Kimmoi]

Only thing what bothers me is the geometrys of these bikes with Pinion.
What i looked, Rotwild has pretty worse geo.
Hopefully there will come bikes with ”new geometry” with that pinion.

i.e. Pole bicycles. VoimaPinion would be my choice.
Edit: and that Bulls seatpost angle…c’mon!

 

[OldnSlow]

These guys seem to get good feedback from their riders and the Pinion gearbox is well regarded also. If you didn't have to pedal it, it might be close to perfect

 

[OldnSlow]

Benefits of a Gearbox — Zerode Bikes

zerodebikes.com

 

[The EMF]

I would argue it does play a big role, especially because of "battery sag", that is significantly lowered or delayed with higher voltage. But nobody talks about that on ebikes...but everybody know when the last 10% to 15% disappear in thin air within a few pedal strokes.

Yes you are right 20A is the max for these systems, but with a higher voltage it is possible to achieve two things, better efficiency(less heat loss) and/or higher peak power with the same amount of current.

Max phase currents are controlled by the software/firmware of the controller.

The manufacturer can now cap the max current at 15A(25% reduction) and achieve the same power levels.

It makes sense for emtbs as there is a lot of intense and not constant current draw, which is pretty hard on the whole system.

If I look at it the other way, I ride eskate...the difference in efficiency and power delivery between a 42V system to a 54V is massive.

Electric sports cars are also using higher(800V) voltage systems than most of the ordinary(400V) e-cars...wonder why...efficiency and stable power delivery throughout the battery range(less battery sag).

Anyway everyone is allowed to have their own opinion...so take this as good conversation

Great post…….love the expertise on this site. You learn so much

 

[Alexbn921]

I would argue it does play a big role, especially because of "battery sag", that is significantly lowered or delayed with higher voltage. But nobody talks about that on ebikes...but everybody know when the last 10% to 15% disappear in thin air within a few pedal strokes.

Yes you are right 20A is the max for these systems, but with a higher voltage it is possible to achieve two things, better efficiency(less heat loss) and/or higher peak power with the same amount of current.

Max phase currents are controlled by the software/firmware of the controller.

The manufacturer can now cap the max current at 15A(25% reduction) and achieve the same power levels.

It makes sense for emtbs as there is a lot of intense and not constant current draw, which is pretty hard on the whole system.

If I look at it the other way, I ride eskate...the difference in efficiency and power delivery between a 42V system to a 54V is massive.

Electric sports cars are also using higher(800V) voltage systems than most of the ordinary(400V) e-cars...wonder why...efficiency and stable power delivery throughout the battery range(less battery sag).

Anyway everyone is allowed to have their own opinion...so take this as good conversation

Voltage sag would be an identical percentage. You use the same amount of batteries and pull the same amount of watts. Yes the voltage is higher, but the current capacity is lower. Both are pulling 1C of discharge on a 700 battery. Overall higher voltage is a good thing as the wires can weight less and it should be more efficient.

Ebikes have very low battery draw and place almost no stress on the cells as they are cap out at 1C. They are also charged at .25C which is ridiculously low. For example my RC pulls peak 30C and RC jets with ducted fans pull a constant 20-25C. I only charge at 1C max, even thought my smart charger can safely charge up to 5C.

 

[Lee Dove]

I've not worked out where the speed sensor is yet ????

De-restricting is going to be difficult/impossible ! Especially if you want to use some of the auto functions like auto shifting, pre-select (where it changes to the right gear for the speed when you're descending).

View attachment 118408

On the Simplon in the Video it is on the rear disc by the looks of it. You can see a sensor wire on the chainstay if you look close.

 

[emtbeast]

Voltage sag would be an identical percentage. You use the same amount of batteries and pull the same amount of watts. Yes the voltage is higher, but the current capacity is lower. Both are pulling 1C of discharge on a 700 battery. Overall higher voltage is a good thing as the wires can weight less and it should be more efficient.

Ebikes have very low battery draw and place almost no stress on the cells as they are cap out at 1C. They are also charged at .25C which is ridiculously low. For example my RC pulls peak 30C and RC jets with ducted fans pull a constant 20-25C. I only charge at 1C max, even thought my smart charger can safely charge up to 5C.

Yes exactly you are correct, the stress on the cells in ebike battery packs is not that high and with higher voltage that even drops further. Especially the removable packs and those in aluminum housing perform better as the cooling factor is better.

From experience with my ebike, and my buddys, both farly new 2022 emtbs...the most heat stress is on the motor electrical components...afterall it's a closed box with no ventilation whatsoever, although there is an aluminum or magnesium housing on most the motor temperature on hot days combined with steep incline prolonged climbing is so high that sometimes it's impossible to touch the housing after that, for example my buddy's bike's app recorded an 87°C = 189°F motor temperature.

The motors with all metal gears are usually a bit better with heat dissipation than the ones that have a mix of nylon and metal gears.

So to conclude, lowering the current(heat) by raising voltage is only a good idea overall.

 

[Lee Dove]

Yes, would also do it over magnet on wheel, still better not to ratate belt while coasting.

Looks like there is integrated magnet on brake disc.

Anyway notice, this last bike Rob was testing, does not have mechanism to split rear triangle rod to replace belt.
The other bike has a mechanism where you can split it after removing rear axle.

View attachment 118513

On belt removal you say that you can't split the rear triangle while showing am image of the bolts to remove to split the rear triangle

 

[James_C]

For those who haven't seen it yet, Rob's rode a bike with it built in and done a video here:

Looks amazing. What an improvement.

I wonder how much extra drag there is? and also how it deals with wet sandy mud etc...

 

[Kimmoi]

Looks amazing. What an improvement.

I wonder how much extra drag there is? and also how it deals with wet sandy mud etc...

What about that? Chain deals also, oiled.
I think belt is much better and more reliable than chain. Even in sand, mud etc.

 

[emtbeast]

For anyone wondering about gearbox drag and beltdrive in tough conditions, recommend checking out this guy's yt video. It gives you broader picture about everything and If you ask me, the ebike's motor power remedies most of the slightly negative aspects of drag and he describes a slightly different solution also.

 

[Kimmoi]

How about Pinion at winter? Oil in cold conditions?
I also commute and ride at trails year around, at winter there are times when it’s -25 or -30celsius.
Bike is 8 hours outside during a work day.

 

[Strindberg]

Hyvää huomenta Kimmoi!

Pinionilla ei ole ongelmia talvella, ainakaan miinus 15 asteeseen, kuten Strasbourgissa Ranskassa.

 

[Kimmoi]

Hyvää huomenta Kimmoi!

Pinionilla ei ole ongelmia talvella, ainakaan miinus 15 asteeseen, kuten Strasbourgissa Ranskassa.

Hyvää huomenta sinnekkin! Kiitos tiedosta, tämä varmisti sen että Pinion-pyörä hankitaan kun aika on kypsä.

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej Kimmoi,

about reliability of Pinion you have in the german forum also a lot of my comments under my same avatar
( mutta olen ranskalainen ! / mais, je suis français / men jag är fransk )

PINION MGU E1.12 - neue Motor-/Getriebe-Unit von Pinion

Hej Hej, nun ist es doch soweit! ich bin auf Pinion:s Weltneuheit sehr gespannt, denn mein Stevens Pinion 18 mit am Hinterrad... zuerst Maxon... und dann Go SwissDrive war doch ein Irr-, und Unsinn, und besonders in steilen Steigungen. und der Maxon war software-, und...

www.pedelecforum.de

PINION MGU E1.12 - neue Motor-/Getriebe-Unit von Pinion

Na bei der Lärmstufe des Antriebs sind tier-und menschenfreie Wege im Wald garantiert.

www.pedelecforum.de

 

[Kimmoi]

So, Which manufacturers have announced that they will bring to the market bikes with Pinion E1.12?
-Rotwild(geo sucks)
-Bulls(geo sucks)
-Simplon(geo is ”okay”)

Others with geometry that is not from eighties?

 

[Wilbur]

I’d have thought Nicolai would have been a natural partner

 

[Biano44]

Like the one on the website?

 

[Lee Dove]

How about Pinion at winter? Oil in cold conditions?
I also commute and ride at trails year around, at winter there are times when it’s -25 or -30celsius.
Bike is 8 hours outside during a work day.

Put thinner oil in in the winter?

 

[Kimmoi]

I really hope that Nicolai moves to Pinion and forget Bosch and Rohloff.
Nicolai could be option for me. Earlier i looked seriously that e14.

 

[w2ge]

I’m all for this technology.. I do have reservations about using a belt drive on emtb. Small stones can EASILY jam into the cogs on the drivewheels and cause belt wear. On a motorcycle (and I know this certainly not the same) stones caught in the cogs can eat up a kevlar belt in minutes. Getting the stones that are jammed into the teeth is possibly gonna be a pain to get out. One rotation and the belt will jam them in tighter.

just spitballin here.. others may know better?

 

[Guyt]

BRP acquired a majority stake (80%) in Pinion in 2022. BRP stands for Bombardier Recreational Products. They are now aiming for the e-bike market. Their capitalization is 1.6B USD. Expect Pinion to become very big.

Bombardier Recreational Products | BRP® Official Website

Learn more about BRP, the world leader in the snowmobile, ATV & SXS, 3-wheel motorcycle and personal watercraft industries.

www.brp.com

 

[G-Sport]

I'm a bit late to this but also super interested.

I agree that it would have been nice if the output was elevated relative to the crank rather than concentric. Adding the tensioners to belt or chain seems like unnecessary complexity and weight. If they had built in nice solid pivot bearings around an elevated output shaft that would have simplified everything, it would have probably made the packaging around the crank axle with seals and bearings and sprags quite a lot easier and building in the pivot bearing mounts would also have mitigated some of the weight penalty.

Weight is my biggest worry, the Pinion rep started off listing it as a 100-200g weight penalty over a normal full power motor and Eagle etc but this slowly grew to 500g over the course of the spiel. Coming from an SL bike this would be a huge shock, probably around 1.2 - 1.5kg penalty which is huge and quite possibly "too much" for me.
I appreciate that they probably needed to pick one size to develop and at the time they probably started developing this the market was 95% full power bikes, but I do hope that they can quickly develop a light-weight version to sit in the SL category.

Does anyone know if the casing of this is magnesium or aluminium? If it isn't already magnesium then that is a nice potential weight saving that they should jump on ASAP.

I really like the look of the shifters. I am not keen to go electronic but these electronic shifters look like nicest ones so far to me, the action looks natural and they don't appear to be as huge as the AXIS ones.

Very keen to get rid of the cassette and derailleur there are LOTS of potential advantages. Obviously there is less impact worry. And sure you save that weight, but you also save that WIDTH. That means less wheel dishing is needed, so wheels can be stronger and stiffer. Narrower rear end means less heel issues for people with big feet. Narrower hub means stiffer hub axle which makes for a stiffer rear end (the amount the two dropouts move relative to each other is surprisingly large), which means pivot bearings, hub bearings and suspension work better and last longer. AND a narrower hub can be lighter. Unsprung mass is hugely important.

Then of course there is mud and grit. I ride in the UK and I ride year round. Winter is a big pain and slipping about in the mud is enough of a trial as it is without adding the chain drive derailleur mechanism, which seems perfectly designed to collect mud/grit from the rear tyre and then ensure that it gets well distributed around all the moving parts of the bike. It is actually hard to think of a worse system. With a full drive train (chain, cassette, jockey wheels, sprocket) coming in at £200 - 650 and lasting about 18-24 months, there is a strong case for spending more money on a thing like this.

The gear range seems a bit crazy to me.

So in summary, I would like an SL version with:-

Elevated output with nice robust concentric suspension pivot points.
300W/50Nm equivalent.
9 speeds but with a 21% step (for a range of 460%).
3.4kg maximum weight.
Sensible mounting points for a proper bash-guard.

 

[Dirtyrig]

It's crazy thinking that the belt can last the life of the bike, imagine that!!!

 

[3dp]

I’m all for this technology.. I do have reservations about using a belt drive on emtb. Small stones can EASILY jam into the cogs on the drivewheels and cause belt wear. On a motorcycle (and I know this certainly not the same) stones caught in the cogs can eat up a kevlar belt in minutes. Getting the stones that are jammed into the teeth is possibly gonna be a pain to get out. One rotation and the belt will jam them in tighter.

just spitballin here.. others may know better?

True enough - had a Buell get through 2 belts in a very short time - very sensitive to tension (hence the idler gear) although Gates belts can be very stone/puncture resistant and I’ve redlined a Morgan 3 donut ting and that belt was in good shape. Some of the touring bikes with pinion are 100000km+ on pinion and running the the same belt

 

[Alexbn921]

They will sell everyone they make. All the doom and gloom here is funny. A belt is better than a chain. A gearbox is better than a derailleur. Removing weight from the rear sprung mass is HUGE!
It's better in everyway. I'm sure someone will find a way to break it, but I'll take more reliable in every way any day.

Efficiency would be it's only downside, but by integrating the gears into the motor reduction, you minimize a lot of internal loses from existing belts/gears. Add in that belts are more efficient at higher torque and don't suffer from contamination. I bet it breaks even.

 

[Hicksy 92]

I want new levo with this .

Me too

 

[DogRanger]

I've seen no comments about what it might be like to pedal this thing once the battery dies. I have a full fat ebike that's difficult but more because of weight than friction and drag losses. My lightweight road ebike feels like an analog and I pedal it without any assist at least half the time.

I'm just a little concerned about the fact it's noisy in lower gears, but fix that and it's possibly my dream bike.
Now tell me the price!

I wonder how others (Shimano, SRAM, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha, etc.) will respond. If this is as good as it seems to me then those other brands are potentially in very big trouble long term. I bet they're all doing a lot of patent research right now!