My Chinese frame and motor build. The CHEEB, V1.0 - Build Thread

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Another ride today.

13 miles / 1167 ft climbing I returned with 79% battery remaining! I was using the highest power mode all ride. Temperature of 3 degrees (usually has an impact on range). Conditions: MUD!!

Bafang M500

On the ride today it definitely felt LESS punchy and powerful than most other motors. Not hugely less powerful, but definitely noticeable if you're used to others. Its power delivery is way more progressive. So you get a small amount of assist to get going then power is delivered nicely.

To compare this motor to a Levo with the 90Nm Brose Mag S, its like acceleration setting is on 0% on mission control.

I hope one day to be able to tune the motor, if Bafang allow it. I'd change the acceleration response (I like the kick that you can get from the Bosch / Brose upon initial pedal stroke)

Assistance is always very very smooth. No surges of power, no twitchiness of the motor.

Motor is so quiet! Super stealth, walkers just cannot hear you coming. No one can hear it! (check my Insta story today if you want to hear it in action)

I think that Bafang have detuned this motor and I reckon its capable of a fair bit more. But as its aimed at the euro market no doubt they've turned the power down a fair bit (its a very similar design to the peddle M600 motor that is way more powerful).

This crazy 840Wh battery and motor tune will provide some epic long rides. Paired with the frame, it'd be amazing as a big climbing machine for some epic descents. Alps, for example. It'd just cruise for miles up the climbs then give you an amazing chassis to smash it back down.

I need to do a full battery range test at some point to work out battery estimation accuracy.

Dengfu E10 Frame

Totally solid. Trails, jumps. Plush feeling frame kinematic, not too wooden feeling. RockShox Zeb is total overkill for todays ride, but its so solid. Need to reduce PSI a little.

Not much more to say about the frame other than so far its doing well (3 short rides!). Again, totally quiet.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

There's talk of the screen settings being able to give 5 and 9 levels, are you sure that on the other settings, say the 9th setting, will not get more assist ? Certainly other riders are saying that the M500 is comparable to the Bosch and Bafung claim 85Nm of torque for the M500 and 120Nm for the M600, which should be comparible ?

I tried levels 5 and 9 also ?

With a setting of 3/3 - Level 3 is the equivalent of level 9 (it just removes all the in between marginal assist levels, so 3/3 = 9/9)


Bafang claim 95Nm for this which is more than both Brose and Bosch. In my experience though it’s definitely not as punchy as both of those.

 

[apac]

You'll probably find that the m600 has one metal gear inside along with the nylon ones to help take the extra load and to stop the gears turning into peanut butter when run at higher amperage. Which in turn will make the motor a lot more audible.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Thats a bit of a pain, thought the 3/3 would be the same as the 9/9 but worth a punt.

Are you underestimating the max output perhaps if the acceleration has been wound back ( the M600 had the same plastic main drive gear but in its early production run, the motor power stripped it and they went over to a metal gear ) and the engine is quiet with a slow kick in to prevent damage to the plastic gear on intial drive. We've all been in super quiet and super smooth cars that just outpace the V8 next door.

I think somewhere on the display is a motor Watt readout ?

The max watts I've seen on the display is 580W. Compare that to the Brose, I've seen way over 700W.

Similar to here - almost 800W from the Brose (electrical power)

I'm going to contact Bafang to see if there's any newer revisions to the firmware they can supply me. Also, I read that @patdam mention his felt less powerful than his Shimano, so we are both probably using the same firmware and getting the same power output.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Am I right in saying same motor I usedd in Class 2 Pedlecs with a different tune?

No, they use the M600 motor in the Class 2. Fitting is the same but the motor is slightly wider. 500W nominal and like 120Nm / 1000 Watts

 

[Waynemarlow]

What happens to plastic gears when you set the " acceleration" up to high ( its called ramp up in power terms ), don't ask me how I know

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

@Rob Rides EMTB could you maybe measure the seat tube angle? with your mullet setup and the 170mm fork I would expect you are sitting quite far over the rear wheel, or is the climbing position still acceptable?

I measured effective seat angle at around 75 degrees. BUT i need to do it again with more accuracy.

Due to the 455mm chain stay no issue with climbing so far.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

thanks, was just wondering as they are claiming a 74.5 degrees on their sizing chart with a 150mm setup.

yea - thats prob correct. I measured from BB centre to top of seat tube, so slightly different measurement.

 

[patdam]

The max watts I've seen on the display is 580W. Compare that to the Brose, I've seen way over 700W.

Similar to here - almost 800W from the Brose (electrical power)

I'm going to contact Bafang to see if there's any newer revisions to the firmware they can supply me. Also, I read that @patdam mention his felt less powerful than his Shimano, so we are both probably using the same firmware and getting the same power output.

Less powerful feel yes, but more torque. That provide an motor more efficient to climb on hard technical track and you can use more long demultiplication. Where i need to use walk mode to climb with shimano, i playing to climb on the bike with the dengfu. To bafang i request more the possibility to reduce throttle max power and displaying information selected in large characters place of speed meter. I have also request explaination on BESST tool, does final customer can use it (it seem necessary to have password) ?

We seem on line ROB about the feelling of this motor, we shouldn't so far from the truth. An noisless motor is really great pleasure.

Good luck to find the range limit rob, i could not (you have light to ride night ?).

i do not ride in the alps, but pyrenees is not bad place

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Wow...I am amazed buy that range!! I am actually considering getting a non ludicrous controller for my 600 on the X1 as it is more then powerful enough and I would love more range!

Rob would you ever consider bolting up the M600 on this bike or is that a no go? That motor is seriously impressive.

The reason I didnt go for the M600 was that I really need to keep it legal! The M600 is not an EU spec (as its derestricted / more powah!!) and I cant really go condoning that kinda stuff ?

Also, the weight, its quite a bit heavier.

 

[markus datgloi]

I have also request explaination on BESST tool, does final customer can use it (it seem necessary to have password) ?

See this thread Bafang M500/M600 thread - Page 14 - Endless Sphere and check mirkoser100 posts.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Good luck to find the range limit rob, i could not (you have light to ride night ?).

Range seems like it will be incredible! I think it will be tough to use the entire battery. In fact, I'd rather save 1KG on battery! Would still have 620Wh battery with 1KG weight saving.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

The build ?

 

[patdam]

great job rob. happy new year everybody

another interesting video about bafang test laboratory

Bafang Factory Tour Suzhou China - Part 6 of 8 (Indoor Laboratory) - YouTube

 

[aarfeldt]

How is the speed controlled ?
Magnet on rear brake disc and pickup on chainstay ?

Who sets the cutout speed ?
I assume it can be delivered with both 25kmh/32kmh, depending on the region it's supposed to be used..??..

Is there an app to change/modify/personalize the settings ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

How is the speed controlled ?
Magnet on rear brake disc and pickup on chainstay ?

Who sets the cutout speed ?
I assume it can be delivered with both 25kmh/32kmh, depending on the region it's supposed to be used..??..

Is there an app to change/modify/personalize the settings ?

Pedalling .. Though there is an optional thumb throttle. Or bum throttle if you mounted it on the seat.
I think the Magnet, as supplied is a wheel magnet. You can just about see the sensor on the inside of the chainstay on the youtube image.

They do when you order it. For UK delivery it's set at 25kmh.

There is an app you can download from the bafang website called "BESST". If you're not techno savvy, I you might also need to buy a "BESST" connection for to link to your PC for about €100 - From what I recall, these are available from the luna website. You then need a logon id for the software which Bafang can provide. As mentioned in the thread, different ID's have different capabilities with regard to what settings they will let you change and within what parameters.

 

[Animalector]

really nice bike, correct me if I am wrong but surely all Bafang motors are illegal and do more than 250 watts? I have in mind that when I checked Bafang they had no engine that was legal from what I could find.

No the M500 is EN15194 compliant, which is 250W nominal and PAS only to 25km/h. All brands, Shimano, Brose, Bosch all peak higher than 250W because of the way the standards specify how to.measure the nominal power. Basically because you're climbing up a hill much slower than 25km/h you're allowed to output more power.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

hmm, indeed not the same.. could be the same internals, in a different case. That's some serious investment in tooling. I've been thinking about the "light weight" enduro rather than going bigger more powerful. I think this is where we'll end up long-term. I am very keen to see A Forestal in the flesh.

Were you able to source that M800 off-the-shelf, or do you have a special arrangement with Bafang?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Im following this with great interest, kudos to you for taking on this project and showing what can be achieved with a little research and ingenuity. Cant wait to see the ride review, and Im hoping to see a lot more about this build very soon.
One question though Rob, You don't seem to mention a charger at all, did this come with the bike as a package deal or is it something you had to buy separately?

Cheers! Charger included ?

 

[apac]

Do you know the charging rate in amps? Im assuming it comes with a uk plug.

i strongly suggest you don't go down this road if you can't change a plug..?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Do you know the charging rate in amps? Im assuming it comes with a uk plug.

3.6a I believe if I remember. Comes with EU plug but it’s a standard C7 cable that will fit.

 

[patdam]

attached display manual transmitted by bafang. but i am not sure it is the right (bluetooth is normally the C241? and this manual do not show assist mode qty adjust). in 2nd file iyou have the luna X1 display manual who explain assist mode qty setting

 

[pragrick]

CHEBB, M500 motor. Are there any issues with getting the M600 instead. The frame you ordered can take the M500 or M600. Why not just take the 600, is there a problem with importing it? If it is used off road only? Is it a much larger drain on the battery? or just extra Nm if needed? And the display/controller for the motor? did they send that, what does it look like/cost?

 

[Zimmerframe]

CHEBB, M500 motor. Are there any issues with getting the M600 instead. The frame you ordered can take the M500 or M600. Why not just take the 600, is there a problem with importing it? If it is used off road only? Is it a much larger drain on the battery? or just extra Nm if needed? And the display/controller for the motor? did they send that, what does it look like/cost?

There are a couple of things about the M600 compared to the M500.

The M600 runs all metal gears - so stronger, they had to do this because of the extra power. It also means it's louder than the M500. I think Luna ? make an alternative plastic gear for the M600 to make it quieter, no idea how this would affect reliability though.

The M600 is slightly heavier, so if you're trying to keep the weight down, it might not be the right choice for you.

The M600 is slightly wider (though uses the same mounting holes), I'm not sure if this also corresponds to a wider Q-factor which might be relevant for some riders. @Animalector ???

The M600, being more powerful, will use the battery quicker (if you use the power, but then if you never do, you might as well have the M500).

The M600, being more powerful, doesn't comply as a Pedalec, so in many places it would require insurance, registration plate, licence ? - depending on where you are.

 

[Danny325is]

I spent a bit of time Chatting with Tony and unfortunately for me and my countrymen, this frame is not available for import to the USA.
Defang has an exclusive distributorship with an unnamed Company here in the US. I am making assumptions that this will be the frame for the upcoming Luna X-2 (or what ever replaces the x-1).

Super excited to see how this Bike turns out. If someone outside the US wants to order 2 and ship me one let me know.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

hi Rob. I can not find the size of the dropper, do you know it?

31.6 ?

 

[RyeNiel]

31.6 ?

Hi Rob, can a Fox float DPX2 factory series evo fits the frame?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Forgot to add to original post. You’ll need some shock hardware. The size is as follows


16.5mm x 8mm linkage
32mm x 8mm frame mount

I got mine from @Offset

www.offsetbushings.com


£24

 

[Purpleaki]

Hi, do you have a breakdown of the costs please?
Was the extra just on shipping or have they raised the price of the frame too?

I also got quoted the higher price of £1860.

Due to recent custom tariff changes, one thing to note is that the frame, motor and battery may be eligible for VAT upon entry into the UK. I don't think it is exempt from the tariff free trade negotiated in the latest Brexit agreement as the goods are not manufactured in the EU. Prior to Brexit, I think Dengfu used to ship through the EU and prepay the EU VAT tax, and then the goods entered the UK without customs duty. I am not sure how they are doing it now.

If VAT is applied upon entry into the UK, 20% of £1860 is an additional ~£360 without the customs handling charge (I think this is usually ~£15), so a total of ~£2200?. Still a great price, but the additional costs may be worth considering!

I'm in contact with Tony from Dengfu on this - will update you all when I get more information.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

CHEEB