Ebike Optimized Forks Or Not

[Ducatijones]

I am looking to replace the twisted forks on my Trek powerfly fs9, is there much difference between ebike optimized fox 36 forks and a set that isnt ebike opt ? Also has anyone just replaced bent lowers ?

 

[raine]

There IS a difference: the e-MTB specific Fox 36 fork has has thicker stanchions and more material in the fork crown to handle the heavier e-MTB. Because the stanchions are thicker, the e-MTB specific Fox 36 actually uses a 34-sized air spring. Also, if you get an e-bike specific Fox fork with the GRIP damper, it's tuned differently for e-bike (FIT4 though same tune as regular Fox 34).

 

[miPbiP]

q: why would me on an e-bike need a stronger fork than someone 8kg heavier then me on a non-ebike?

 

[Ducatijones]

I cant work it out either. I am thinking of making a pair out of some old scaffold pipe.

 

[raine]

q: why would me on an e-bike need a stronger fork than someone 8kg heavier then me on a non-ebike?

I cant work it out either. I am thinking of making a pair out of some old scaffold pipe.

OP asked if there's a difference between the e-bike Fox fork vs. the regular Fox fork, and there is design-wise, as I explained.

Does it actually make a difference? That's a different question you guys just asked HAHA

 

[raine]

q: why would me on an e-bike need a stronger fork than someone 8kg heavier then me on a non-ebike?

I cant work it out either. I am thinking of making a pair out of some old scaffold pipe.

Actually, it would (an e-bike would need a stronger fork). A lot of people think this:

180 lbs rider on 50 lbs e-bike = 230 lbs. total
200 lbs. rider on 30 lbs. non-e-bike = 230 lbs total

Yes - above, both total weight is 230 lbs. But you're comparing lighter rider on heavier e-bike vs heavier rider on lighter non-e-bike - it's not "apples to apples".

Now put that 200 lbs. rider on the e-bike, and now total weight is 250lbs.

On average E-bikes by themselves are already around 20-30 pounds heavier than your typical enduro "non-e" bike. So all the time the e-bike fork is already carrying 20-30 lbs. more weight, and that's before you add rider weight on top of that.

 

[miPbiP]

good point. big riders need stronger kit. luckily I don't haha.

 

[Tamas]

Yes - above, both total weight is 230 lbs. But you're comparing lighter rider on heavier e-bike vs heavier rider on lighter non-e-bike - it's not "apples to apples".

Why not? Some components - like wheels - have total system weight specified and I don't really see the difference between light rider + heavier bike and heavier rider + lighter bike. I would think that the total weight matters but I'm open to a convincing explanation...
On average, an ebike (with E8000 or Brose) is only ~7-8kg/17lbs heavier than a regular bike.
My Meta Power doesn't have any ebike specifc components other than the E8000 system.

 

[tedturbine]

my meta power signature has the ebike 36 fox and I wondered why they felt the need to make an ebike specific fork:

FOX 34 e-bike optimised fork - what's different? Read our first impressions.

It's an oldish article but the point about riding through stuff on an ebike rather than floating over it is something I've noticed so they wanted to make a stiffer fork.

 

[raine]

Why not? Some components - like wheels - have total system weight specified and I don't really see the difference between light rider + heavier bike and heavier rider + lighter bike. I would think that the total weight matters but I'm open to a convincing explanation...
On average, an ebike (with E8000 or Brose) is only ~7-8kg/17lbs heavier than a regular bike.
My Meta Power doesn't have any ebike specifc components other than the E8000 system.

Sure, my Meta Power doesn't have any "E-bike specific" components either other than the E8000 system... but that's what makes it heavier than a Meta.

Like I said, a lot of people see it as just comparing a combination of numbers. You don't see the difference because you're focusing on total weight - but you're compensating by using two different riders on two different bikes to equalize total weight - that isn't "apples to apples."

Try looking at it this way:
Rider A vs. Rider B, identical weight = apples to apples
Fork A vs. Fork B, identical = apples to apples
Bike A 30 lbs. vs. e-Bike B 50 lbs. = there is a difference, right?

Now, if you're gonna say "ok then add 20 lbs to the Rider A, now they weigh the same" that doesn't work as a comparison anymore. If you add 20 lbs. to Rider A then you have to also add 20 pounds to rider B to keep the comparison valid.

Here's a better, non bike related example: Look at vehicle tires and their load ratings. A large pickup truck will require a tire with a higher load rating than a small 2-door hatchback car, because the trucck by itself is already heaiver than the car by itself, right? It doesn't matter what the cargo or the passenger weight is, or if you put lighter people in the truck and heavier people in the hatchback. the truck is already heavier than the car before you add the passengers and cargo.

 

[R120]

I have "normal" Fox Factory 36 on my hardtail EMTB, and Lyric on my FS Emtb - at no time have I felt they need to be burlier.

Bare in mind I rind the hardtail aggressively, and the fork takes way more punishment than on my FS due to both the fact its the only source of suspension, and the fact that its having to deal with 19kg of EMTB by itself with no help out back.

I get he logic behind it, but IMO the simple answer is no, you dont need it, and IMO a dual crown fork would be the way forward for an EMTB specific fork if you are really concerned about stiffness.

 

[tedturbine]

R120 I tend to agree, I was just trying to elaborate on Fox's thinking. Maybe it's just marketing

 

[Pdoz]

Perhaps ALL bikes benefit from the stiffer "e" bike forks, but only ebike riders are willing to accept the weight penalty? ( and dedicated dh riders)

 

[Tamas]

Sure, my Meta Power doesn't have any "E-bike specific" components either other than the E8000 system... but that's what makes it heavier than a Meta.

Like I said, a lot of people see it as just comparing a combination of numbers. You don't see the difference because you're focusing on total weight - but you're compensating by using two different riders on two different bikes to equalize total weight - that isn't "apples to apples."

Try looking at it this way:
Rider A vs. Rider B, identical weight = apples to apples
Fork A vs. Fork B, identical = apples to apples
Bike A 30 lbs. vs. e-Bike B 50 lbs. = there is a difference, right?

Now, if you're gonna say "ok then add 20 lbs to the Rider A, now they weigh the same" that doesn't work as a comparison anymore. If you add 20 lbs. to Rider A then you have to also add 20 pounds to rider B to keep the comparison valid.

Here's a better, non bike related example: Look at vehicle tires and their load ratings. A large pickup truck will require a tire with a higher load rating than a small 2-door hatchback car, because the trucck by itself is already heaiver than the car by itself, right? It doesn't matter what the cargo or the passenger weight is, or if you put lighter people in the truck and heavier people in the hatchback. the truck is already heavier than the car before you add the passengers and cargo.

You claimed that if the rider + bike total weight is 230lbs in both cases that's not the same and I'm still not convinced as you just repeated the same thing.

In the cars' case, the tire load requirements depend on the maximum allowed weight of the car/truck + cargo.

 

[R120]

R120 I tend to agree, I was just trying to elaborate on Fox's thinking. Maybe it's just marketing

Nothing wrong with your analysis, but IMO they would have been better bringing out a larger diameter fork, say a 37, as for all intense and purposes the EBike fork is a burlier Fox 34. You are basically getting a 34 with thicker stanchions.

 

[Tamas]

my meta power signature has the ebike 36 fox and I wondered why they felt the need to make an ebike specific fork:

FOX 34 e-bike optimised fork - what's different? Read our first impressions.

It's an oldish article but the point about riding through stuff on an ebike rather than floating over it is something I've noticed so they wanted to make a stiffer fork.

My Meta has Lyrik and the only 'ebike specific' thing is the pressure chart - "add +10 psi for ebike". I have absolutely no problem with it.

The Fox 34 is a terribly flexy fork I have it on my Orbea Occam. I'm not surprised if they beefed it up Fox should sell the 'e-bike optimised' version on all bikes.

 

[raine]

You claimed that if the rider + bike total weight is 230lbs in both cases that's not the same and I'm still not convinced as you just repeated the same thing.

I repeated the same thing because it already logically explains it.

You’re changing the weight of the rider on two different bikes to compensate in order to the achieve the same “total weight” that you’re basing your understanding on in order to justify that there’s no difference - when you made two distinct variables different to begin with lol

Added weight doesn’t offset base weight. Subtracting does.

 

[Pdoz]

There's more than just total weight involved in the decision - our legs act like suspension for our body weight.

Everyone who rides my ebike comments on how " planted" it feels before they comment on the motor - stiffer forks, wider tyres, stiffer frame / wheels?

 

[Bikerson]

Am I the only one that dreams with brands manufacturing big coil spring forks again like MZ66 (38mm stanchions), Fox Van (36mm.), RS Totem (40mm.)??
Those masive stanchions would fit perfect with the Kenevo, new Commençal Meta Power and all long travel enduro E-bikes giving them, stiffnes, smoothness and less maintenance.
What do you think about that?

 

[raine]

It's simple:

An e-bike weighs more than a non e-bike.

Ideally you'd want stronger components to handle the heavier e-bike. Yes Fox's "e-bike specific" fork is part marketing, but the logic is sound. Do you need an e-bike specific fork though? Personally I'd say no - my "standard" 35mm Rockshox Lyrik is doing just as good on my Meta Power as my other 35mm Rockshox Lyrik on my Supreme SX.

Fudge all the other external factors all you want (lighter rider, hydration pack vs none, full face vs trail, clipless vs flats, etc. etc.) - as I kept saying earlier, total weight is not the right way to compare, there's too many variables.

 

[raine]

Am I the only one that dreams with brands manufacturing big coil spring forks again like MZ66 (38mm stanchions), Fox Van (36mm.), RS Totem (40mm.)??
Those masive stanchions would fit perfect with the Kenevo, new Commençal Meta Power and all long travel enduro E-bikes giving them, stiffnes, smoothness and less maintenance.
What do you think about that?

36mm is good enough for everything not downhill LOL
I bet if Fox came out with a 38mm fork, it would be the default Fox "e-bike" fork.

As is, the current Fox E-bike specific fork was a quick way to get a stronger fork out there: take an existing stanchion size (36mm), but make the walls thicker, swap in already available 34mm damper, assemble with an already available 36mm lower, and boom - you have a 36-sized fork that's stronger to handle the extra weight and applied forces of an e-bike.

I believe in my E-bike specific saddle (Ergon). But I'm running non-e specific drivetrain (swapped out EX-1 for GX-11) and suspension (Rockshox) and everything seems peachy =)

 

[Gary]

On average E-bikes by themselves are already around 20-30 pounds heavier than your typical enduro "non-e" bike.

What?

My carbon 170mm travel Enduro bike = 32lb
My Aluminium 170mm travel enduro Emtb = 47lb

Both bikes have the same fork/shock

The motor (E8000), battery (504wh) and other Ebike electrics are about 15lb in total.
Being external battery mount the frame isn't much heavier than a regular Enduro frame.
Why you'd fit heavier parts than your regular enduro bike I have no idea.. .but 15lbs more is just stupid.

Personally I think emtbs start to handle like shit above the 50lb mark.

would a rider with massive feet, big legs and a big arse need their fork specifically overbuilt over a similar height/weight rider with a ripped chest, arms and shoulders but missed leg day his entire life?

In reality HOW you ride has more relevence to how strong your parts need to be than rider or bike weight.
Stiffness is another matter.

 

[raine]

What?

My carbon 170mm travel Enduro bike = 32lb
My Aluminium 170mm travel enduro Emtb = 47lb

Both bikes have the same fork/shock

I did say "around"... LOL

Semantics - LOL the exact number difference isn't important... what is I was trying to point out is that there is a difference.

The motor (E8000), battery (504wh) and other Ebike electrics are about 15lb in total.
Being external battery mount the frame isn't much heavier than a regular Enduro frame.
Why you'd fit heavier parts than your regular enduro bike I have no idea.. .but 15lbs more is just stupid.

WAT haha

The frame portion of an e-bike might not be much heavier, but it's not a complete e-bike frame without that extra 15 pounds of motor, battery, display, switch, cables, and sensor.

would a rider with massive feet, big legs and a big arse need their fork specifically overbuilt over a similar height/weight rider with a ripped chest, arms and shoulders but missed leg day his entire life?

I don't think so.

But a heavier bike that gets more force applied to it might need a stronger fork than a lighter bike.

In reality HOW you ride has more relevence to how strong your parts need to be than rider or bike weight.
Stiffness is another matter.

I agree 100%.

Stiffness IMO is why Fox made a beefier 36 to begin with for e-bike use. Because the forces applied to is are not just how much a rider weighs or how much the frame weighs. This is why the whole argument focused purely on "total weight" is invalid.

 

[Gary]

WAT haha

the 15lb I was referring was to the extra 15lb YOU quoted ebikes have over enduro bikes AFTER the motor/battery.

There really is very little reason for most folk on E bikes to need a single heavier part than an Enduro race bike would have.

 

[raine]

the 15lb I was referring was to the extra 15lb YOU quoted ebikes have over enduro bikes AFTER the motor/battery.

There really is very little reason for most folk on E bikes to need a single heavier part than an Enduro race bike would have.

Again semantics.

My point was, an e-bike is heavier and gets more forces applied to it than a comparable non-e-bike. If people can't grasp this statement, then that's fine. This whole thread went way off topic already LOL

There's little reason for people to buy $5000 enduro bikes to ride around on fire roads too... but people do.

 

[Pdoz]

There really is very little reason for most folk on E bikes to need a single heavier part than an Enduro race bike would have.

You're probably correct, but very few normal emtb riders would be in the market for an enduro race bike - or at least not the ones I'm meeting out on the trail in Australia - it might be a different story in the region you ride in?

Over here, my mates are trading up from mid spec bikes like a giant trance 2 , sinking in a few more $ and buying an etrance - 1 ( with a creep up in spec because the proportionate increase in cost for higher spec gear vs bike purchase price seems easier to swallow) , ie - moving from 140 mm of fox float 34's up to 160 mm of fox 36 e' s - a similar dampening package but bigger stickers and numbers on their forks.

Do they need it? Probably not
Are the bikes nicer to ride? Probably
Should they have been buying that higher spec in their clockwork bikes? By the sound of it, you already do. Maybe the rest of us just need to get our heads around spending more on all our bikes?

 

[Al Boneta]

Nothing wrong with your analysis, but IMO they would have been better bringing out a larger diameter fork, say a 37, as for all intense and purposes the EBike fork is a burlier Fox 34. You are basically getting a 34 with thicker stanchions.

I ordered one of these for my Kenevo

It has 37mm stanchions

 

[Jamsxr]

My eBike specific 36 Factory’s are absolutely brilliant. Absolutely no doubt they are working more then the forks on my trail/enduro bike, taking harder hits and covering more ground. Does the eBike specific bit make a noticeable difference, I don’t know, but I’m very, very happy with them. They make my Pike’s feel Stone Age.

 

[R120]

I ordered one of these for my Kenevo View attachment 15860
It has 37mm stanchions

Have you ridden one yet? I was a big manitou fan boi about 2 decades ago

 

[R120]

I still think that the MRP Bartlett, which is basically a dual crown Enduro fork in 170, 180, and 190mm travel options, would be a great choice for a heavy hitting EMTB.

I know Mojo Rising are working on a dual crown conversion kit for the Fox 36 too