New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)

[TQFreak]

I wonder what the drag is like on a system like this and/or the energy efficiency?
I see one of the bikes with it fitted has well over 900Wh battery.

Should finally move the game on though.

There is no more drag than drag of a gearhub. This is basically gearhub relocated to the motor.

The benefit of this system comparing with gearhub is not only reduced weight of the rear wheel and mass centralisation but also less stress on the chain or belt because of it does not need transition all that torque from the motor anymore and that stress is only on the gears now.

I noticed he did not answer the question about the motor power. But looking on the exposed motor stator diameter I can tell this is not very powerful unit. The stator diameter is very small. It is probably going to be 1.5 times less powerful than an average emtb mid drive motor. 20 mph is probably going to be top speed on flat on this motor when derestricted.

I hope there will be "cargo" ebike motor soon with integrated speed system with 1500-3000w power so you can go fast. Maybe Bafang will come with such solution.

But this system does have a disadvantage. And this is a safety compromise. With integrated speed system the chainring rotates faster than the crank arms and if the chain catches your pants or your leg somehow slides off the pedal to the chainring area that could be a disaster. It is not a big issue when chainring rotates at the same speed as the crack arms like it does an all the bikes currently.

Ideal solution would be this system with shaft drive and single sided swingarm so there is no fast moving components exposed near your legs no drivetrain maintenance at all, quick and easy release of the rear wheel.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

So can this be used like an automatic car with the electronics shifting for you depending on torque & cadence? If so it would be great for those of us who get frustrated with family members who can never remember which button to push when reaching a hill.

 

[Biano44]

There is no more drag than drag of a gearhub. This is basically gearhub relocated to the motor.

The benefit of this system comparing with gearhub is not only reduced weight of the rear wheel and mass centralisation but also less stress on the chain or belt because of it does not need transition all that torque from the motor anymore and that stress is only on the gears now.

I noticed he did not answer the question about the motor power. But looking on the exposed motor stator diameter I can tell this is not very powerful unit. The stator diameter is very small. It is probably going to be 1.5 times less powerful than an average emtb mid drive motor. 20 mph is probably going to be top speed on flat on this motor when derestricted.

I hope there will be "cargo" ebike motor soon with integrated speed system with 1500-3000w power so you can go fast. Maybe Bafang will come with such solution.

But this system does have a disadvantage. And this is a safety compromise. With integrated speed system the chainring rotates faster than the crank arms and if the chain catches your pants or your leg somehow slides off the pedal to the chainring area that could be a disaster. It is not a big issue when chainring rotates at the same speed as the crack arms like it does an all the bikes currently.

Ideal solution would be this system with shaft drive and single sided swingarm so there is no fast moving components exposed near your legs no drivetrain maintenance at all, quick and easy release of the rear wheel.

With all due respect sir, I believe you may be wrong on a few points......Many an E-Bike motor are geared so that the Chainring spins faster than pedal RPM. Also, it still has to transmit all that torque from the motor to the back wheel.
Most of the reviews I have read suggest equal power if not more power than current market leaders.

 

[Mikerb]

As Jurassic mentioned, unsprung weight makes a big difference to how well a rear suspension system reacts on the trail. More expense and more failure? Pinion gearboxes are well proven to be super reliable and very low maintenance, the part that would be the most unreliable would be the motor and all Ebikes have them, followed by the chain, derailleur and cassette and you have just removed that from the equation all together. Even if you still run a chain drive, is works like a single speed, so you can have the perfect chain line, it doesn't have to be flexed sideways to go up and down the cassette, plus you can run something like an 8 or 9 speed chain which is stronger and cheaper and with all this, will last forever.
A friend of mine has a Pinion gearbox in his Zerode and he loves it. Hopefully they do a Ebike version, and I'll be straight onto that.

I agree but to be clear on one point relevant to this new Pinion gearbox/motor combo, electric motors rarely fail on EMTBS.....it is the elements of the crankshaft that most often fails......bearings, sprag clutches, torque sensors.............or the components on the PCB. I would be interested to know more a bout the control elements of the Pinion which appears to be using similar technology to modern automobile gearboxes. So for example I can chose between 3 modes ( eco/comfort/sport) on the 8 speed auto box in my car. I can also chose from 3 different control modes..........full auto, paddle shifting, gearstick shifting. The video mentioned different control options for the Pinion. Auto gearboxes engineering and design is well established and proven to be reliable................and do not rattle!!
Clearly the motor/gearbox casing has to be well sealed since it contains oil, although there must be separation of the electric motor part from the gearbox. Does that suggest the combo is better sealed than most of our current mid drive units? Does that mean that crankshaft bearings are being constantly lubricated?

 

[TQFreak]

With all due respect sir, I believe you may be wrong on a few points......Many an E-Bike motor are geared so that the Chainring spins faster than pedal RPM. Also, it still has to transmit all that torque from the motor to the back wheel.
Most of the reviews I have read suggest equal power if not more power than current market leaders.

I know some Bosch motors have geared chainring. But those motors have very small chainring naturally covered by crank arms and some guards for safety purpose. The Pinion solution uses regular big size chainring.

Regarding the transitioning "all that torque" from the motor I ment the torque on the chainring for Pinion motor is reduced comparing with regular ebike motor chainring torque because of Pinion motor is geared up comparing with regular ebike motor and I an tell it looking on the cog and chainring sizes (the cog looks pretty big and the chainring has about regular size) which means less force and less stress on the chain (the chain on the Pinion system actuates bigger lever (bigger cog) comparing with regular bike to achieve the same torque on the rear wheel at higher speeds which means less force on the chain).

 

[GeordieKenevo]

For those who haven't seen it yet, Rob's rode a bike with it built in and done a video here:

 

[Wilbur]

Clearly the motor/gearbox casing has to be well sealed since it contains oil, although there must be separation of the electric motor part from the gearbox. Does that suggest the combo is better sealed than most of our current mid drive units? Does that mean that crankshaft bearings are being constantly lubricated?

That's what bothers me about the MGU. Crankshaft bearings are a wear item, and when worn become the main conduit for water ingress to the motor...

 

[Another One]

I think things like this will always be a niche product just like Rohloff hubs, certainly is a great idea but all those moving part's is a recipe for disaster. Motors already means far too many bikes have to go back for warranty work, why add to the problem.

 

[A06]

In a former life I was very involved with making gearboxes and feel I know a bit about them in larger applications but not much difference scaling them down from what I can tell.

As much as it pains me to say I frankly believe the next evolutionary step would be to a variable drive motor for mass application. I just don't think the technology to do so is scalable for this application right now from a physical size standpoint.

As I believe that's 10 years away or more so I'm happy to see this in the meantime.

My big ask would be a "gear" position which is completely neutral meaning little to no drag when coasting for downhill applications. The possibility of a legit DH long travel ride such as the Voima with this motor and drive seems ideal but the stipulation for me would be it should feel like a (heavy) analog bike when pointing down under gravity power.

 

[Moderator]

Merged the two main Pinion Discussion threads.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Another interesting one which I think is being launched this week is Driven's "Orbit". Driven Technologies was spun off from Ceramicspeed to raise funding and develop the "driven" alternative drive system/shaft drive. There's more about that and shafts about halfway through this article :

Not sure the new SRAM Eagle Transmission is for you - What other options are there ?

SRAM recently released the New Eagle Transmission system. Rumoured and talked about for 4 years and shown in Patents for 6 months now, ridden extensively by Nino Schurter last season, it's finally released into the real world. Originally...

www.emtbforums.com

Their new MGU..... consists of a number of planetary bears arranged in a bevel differential linked to a 90nm motor section.

No idea if it's intended at all for MTB and the shaft drive won't really be an option there and I think it weighs in at about 4.6kg, so more than the Pinion MGU's.

Another one in development at the moment is Niche, which only weighs 3.4kg, but not sure how far along they are.

 

[The EMF]

What Pinion have done with that gearbox and electronics is great. The fact that they have deleloped and integrated the drive system into a working bike deserves well earned credit. The YouTube vid @Rob Rides EMTB is excellent I agree with some some of the decenters and agree with most of the positive stuff.
Can understand why Ebikes are so expensive with R nd D costs that go into pushing the boundaries of what a peddle assist bike can achieve.

 

[Pyr0]

The more i read, the more I want one, lol
I still haven't seen anything regarding water ingress protection/IP ratings though.

 

[The EMF]

It can’t be any worse than my Whyte E150 RS with cable’s sticking out and the motor and control connections not exactly sealed. Anything with an exposed revolving shaft with a static seal is going to be the weakest point with regards to water ingress on the gearbox……cars seem to manage though..

Still love my Great Whyte

 

[Dado]

There is no more drag than drag of a gearhub. This is basically gearhub relocated to the motor.

The benefit of this system comparing with gearhub is not only reduced weight of the rear wheel and mass centralisation but also less stress on the chain or belt because of it does not need transition all that torque from the motor anymore and that stress is only on the gears now.

I noticed he did not answer the question about the motor power. But looking on the exposed motor stator diameter I can tell this is not very powerful unit. The stator diameter is very small. It is probably going to be 1.5 times less powerful than an average emtb mid drive motor. 20 mph is probably going to be top speed on flat on this motor when derestricted.

TQ good catch with motor size, also have noticed it. Looks like outrunner though, so could be similar torque to normal motors.

Started to think about gearing, how it is done. Heres is my diagram from Rob video and open motor pictures. Can be wrong though, feel free to comment. Did not yet looking for some indepth gearing explanation or videos on internet.

From this, my assumptions:
1. There will be higher drag on pedalling, you need to go over 2 gears, plus it is rotating in an oil (Which is good, no more greasing). Standard motors have pedals directly to chain ring (or over one way clutch)

2. There are 3 gears (1 to 4, 5 to 8, 9 to 12) between belt ring and rotor. Rotor is reaching max rpms only in gears 1 to 4. Which means worse effectivity of motor in higher gears. Will go to heat. Comparing to standard rear deraileur, you could keep rotor in optimal rpms.

3. According my calculation, belt ring will reach cca 300rpms, which is not that high, I wouldnt be worry about some danger to chew your trousers.

4. Belt would have worse efficiency comparing to chain (chains have 99% ). But found on internet belt could have better efficiency over 200W. Not sure if this is true.

Would go definitelly to 9 speed gear box (on ebike no need to have more) or even would experiment with 6 ( 3 to rotor as is and only 2 gears to pedalls)- could be enough.

Anyway, this is a huge leap in ebike drivetrains! I am glad no more hassle with chain and cassetes. Also that autoshift is great.

 

[The EMF]

TQ good catch with motor size, also have noticed it. Looks like outrunner though, so could be similar torque to normal motors.

Started to think about gearing, how it is done. Heres is my diagram from Rob video and open motor pictures. Can be wrong though, feel free to comment. Did not yet looking for some indepth gearing explanation or videos on internet.

From this, my assumptions:
1. There will be higher drag on pedalling, you need to go over 2 gears, plus it is rotating in an oil (Which is good, no more greasing). Standard motors have pedals directly to chain ring (or over one way clutch)

2. There are 3 gears (1 to 4, 5 to 8, 9 to 12) between belt ring and rotor. Rotor is reaching max rpms only in gears 1 to 4. Which means worse effectivity of motor in higher gears. Will go to heat. Comparing to standard rear deraileur, you could keep rotor in optimal rpms.

Anyway, this is a huge leap in ebike drivetrains! I am glad no more hassle with chain and cassetes. Also that autoshift is great.

View attachment 118504

WOW !!!

 

[Dado]

I've not worked out where the speed sensor is yet ????

De-restricting is going to be difficult/impossible ! Especially if you want to use some of the auto functions like auto shifting, pre-select (where it changes to the right gear for the speed when you're descending).

View attachment 118408

Why you think will be impossible to derestrict? Motors needs to stop assist at 25kmh. If possible to cheat firmware it should work.

If belt drive is without one way clutch at the hub, it can measure speed on belt gear axle.

 

[Biano44]

Why you think will be impossible to derestrict? Motors needs to stop assist at 25kmh. If possible to cheat firmware it should work.

If belt drive is without one way clutch at the hub, it can measure speed on belt gear axle.

I would guess, to make a product that can NOT be derestricted, would be commercial suicide.
We already know there will be a version that has a higher limit of 45kph so I imagine a simple software hack will suffice.

 

[Dado]

With all due respect sir, I believe you may be wrong on a few points......Many an E-Bike motor are geared so that the Chainring spins faster than pedal RPM. Also, it still has to transmit all that torque from the motor to the back wheel.
Most of the reviews I have read suggest equal power if not more power than current market leaders.

Geared peddals and chainring was previous version of Bosch. Then they realized it is not a good solution. What motor has now geared pedalls?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Why you think will be impossible to derestrict? Motors needs to stop assist at 25kmh. If possible to cheat firmware it should work.

If belt drive is without one way clutch at the hub, it can measure speed on belt gear axle.

I'd imagine it still has a freewheel specified, so you couldn't run the speed sensor from the motor/chainring. It has no regen, so why keep the chainring spinning ?

Yes, you'd have to hack the firmware. It knows what the gears are so for all the automatic functions it must work off speed and cadence. If you tricked the speed sensor, it would always be pre selecting the wrong gears

 

[Dado]

I'd imagine it still has a freewheel specified, so you couldn't run the speed sensor from the motor/chainring. It has no regen, so why keep the chainring spinning ?

Yes, you'd have to hack the firmware. It knows what the gears are so for all the automatic functions it must work off speed and cadence. If you tricked the speed sensor, it would always be pre selecting the wrong gears

Yes, would also do it over magnet on wheel, still better not to ratate belt while coasting.

Looks like there is integrated magnet on brake disc.

Anyway notice, this last bike Rob was testing, does not have mechanism to split rear triangle rod to replace belt.
The other bike has a mechanism where you can split it after removing rear axle.

 

[Eduardoramundo]

In a former life I was very involved with making gearboxes and feel I know a bit about them in larger applications but not much difference scaling them down from what I can tell.

As much as it pains me to say I frankly believe the next evolutionary step would be to a variable drive motor for mass application. I just don't think the technology to do so is scalable for this application right now from a physical size standpoint.

As I believe that's 10 years away or more so I'm happy to see this in the meantime.

My big ask would be a "gear" position which is completely neutral meaning little to no drag when coasting for downhill applications. The possibility of a legit DH long travel ride such as the Voima with this motor and drive seems ideal but the stipulation for me would be it should feel like a (heavy) analog bike when pointing down under gravity power.

Variable drive like this?

 

[Lee Dove]

They could have mounted the final drive separately and higher so potentially you could do away with the tensioner, though I guess someone could run the drive upto a second pulley - depending on the suspension setup.

The DW High pivot design would be great for this.

 

[emtbeast]

Pinion did an excellent job with this powertrain...there is also the yt video from Velomotion with a lot more information...although you need to understand german or try subtitles...

 

[Lee Dove]

I’m thinking a modular approach might alleviate cost/reliability concerns about a unit construction, much like Triumph pre-unit engines were designed. Gearboxes are likely to be more reliable than motors, so why not make the motor a replaceable component with a backplane

Size issue? Triumph also moved away from pre-unit for a reason If the internal design means that motor and/or gear parts can be replaced and parts available the splitting them physically is not required.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I wished the had gone with a 48V system like Brose did

I thought it was a 48v system ? Better check ...

 

[emtbwip]

Is there any indication of pricing yet or if the MGU could be purchased separately?

 

[Dado]

Pinion did an excellent job with this powertrain...there is also the yt video from Velomotion with a lot more information...although you need to understand german.
I wished the had gone with a 48V system like Brose did...less heat loss, less stress on the electronics because of much lower currents, overall a great improvement.

That does not play any role if 36V or 48V. There are funny currents (up to 20A) in these small motors. Max phase currents will be the same if 36 or 48V.

If you running 100kW+ then is important voltage.

But yes, with higher voltage you will do little more top speed.

 

[emtbeast]

That does not play any role if 36V or 48V. There are funny currents (up to 20A) in these kids motors. ) Max phase currents will be the same if 36 or 48V.

If you running 100kW+ then is important voltage.

But yes, with higher voltage you will do little more top speed. Which is anyway limited to 25kmh.

I would argue it does play a big role, especially because of "battery sag", that is significantly lowered or delayed with higher voltage. But nobody talks about that on ebikes...but everybody know when the last 10% to 15% disappear in thin air within a few pedal strokes.

Yes you are right 20A is the max for these systems, but with a higher voltage it is possible to achieve two things, better efficiency(less heat loss) and/or higher peak power with the same amount of current.

Max phase currents are controlled by the software/firmware of the controller.

The manufacturer can now cap the max current at 15A(25% reduction) and achieve the same power levels.

It makes sense for emtbs as there is a lot of intense and not constant current draw, which is pretty hard on the whole system.

If I look at it the other way, I ride eskate...the difference in efficiency and power delivery between a 42V system to a 54V is massive.

Electric sports cars are also using higher(800V) voltage systems than most of the ordinary(400V) e-cars...wonder why...efficiency and stable power delivery throughout the battery range(less battery sag).

Anyway everyone is allowed to have their own opinion...so take this as good conversation

 

[emtbeast]

I thought it was a 48v system ? Better check ...

Zimmerframe you are correct I assumed it's a 36V as I didn't see any marketing for the 48V by them or anyone else. Editing my previous post.

I checked the FIT battery they are using and it is a 48V unit.

Akku Ultracore 720 FIT 48 V 15 Ah | Biketec Europe GmbH

Akku Ultracore 720 FIT 48 V 15 Ah jetzt online für Fachhändler bestellen. Technische Infos✓ Bilder✓ einfacher und umfassender Service✓ beste Qualität✓.

fit-ebike.com

That probably explains the strong power delivery the Velomotion Magazine guy was describing when he was testing it.