New Nicolai with Pinion gearbox announced

[whitymon]

Damn I want one, still bit expensive. I also have no clue if anyone near me could service the motor

 

[Gandalf]

NICOLAI GmbH PRICE: priceless

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

As well as a ‘Normal’ charging mode, it also has a Storage setting and Fast charging. Pressing the down button cycles through the charging modes.

 

[CarolinaCrawler]

it also has a Storage setting

I've often wondered why more bikes don't offer this option either on the bike or charger. It seems like it wouldn't take much to add it at this point.

 

[Suns_PSD]

What compromises? A gearbox and belt drive have virtually 0 maintenance, (only an oil change once a year) unsprung weight is moved from the rear wheel to the BB. So better suspension and weight balance , no derailleur exposed to break, no chain, cassette or chainring to wear out and replace. Also no chain slap/noise. All win/win in my book.

Rando covered some of them, but like he said, everything has compromises.

Gearboxes currently are loud, heavy, clunky shifting, unknown/ more parts to break, expensive, geo limiting, inefficient and therefore use more power, etc.

On the MTBR forum I visit daily there are always a loud contingent of pro Pinion people, most who don't ever buy one. One member in particular did and he is a fan. He also made it about 1 month before a rock poked a hole right through his Pinion case and now he has to spend $800 for a new one and manufacturer a case guard so it doesn't happen again.

I like the idea of gearboxes, but the implementation isn't there yet for my needs. Since I run 11 speeds anyways on mid power e-bikes, I don't experience any issues with my drivetrains.

Something about e-bikes often makes some people just instantly go all in on the hype, mostly based on ad copy and not real-world long-term testing.

 

[rastablondi]

As well as a ‘Normal’ charging mode, it also has a Storage setting and Fast charging. Pressing the down button cycles through the charging modes.

Additionally the system offers a LONG LIFE charging mode, by pressing the light-button.
Charging stops at about 80% then, to reduce battery degradation.

 

[rastablondi]

Gearboxes currently are loud, heavy, clunky shifting, unknown/ more parts to break, expensive, geo limiting, inefficient and therefore use more power, etc.

The MGU is not too loud. In gear 9-12 it is nearly not hearable. In lower gears you hear it. But I would not say "loud".

Heavy? What does a deraillieur weight? and a chain? And a cassette? Plus a regular motor? And where is it all the drivetrain stuff placed? In the middle of the bike, for a good balance?

There is no clunky shifting with a MGU. It is a precise electrical sequencial shifting, fast and with really good performance.

Expensive? The MGU costs about 1500EUR.
How much is a SRAM AXS group? Plus BoschCX Motor?

Geo limiting?? I don't know what you mean?

Inefficient? No, it has nearly the same power consumption as BoschCX 4th gen. In several EMTB magazines comparison was already done.

I like the idea of gearboxes, but the implementation isn't there yet for my needs. Since I run 11 speeds anyways on mid power e-bikes, I don't experience any issues with my drivetrains.

The Nicolai is my first ebike.

My friends have ebikes since ten years now. Several models from several manufacturers. For a lot of them it is absolutely normal that they spend one drivetrain replacement per year! Chain and cassette does not withstand the motor power longer than a season. Even with intense drivetrain cleaning rituals it does not last longer.
This kind of material waste is unacceptable for me.

This was the reason why I planned to wait for the right model with a belt.

The Pinion MGU is the perfect match for my needs.

I am very happy with this lovely piece of german engineering! And I enjoy it with each ride.

 

[DirkWisely]

The MGU is not too loud. In gear 9-12 it is nearly not hearable. In lower gears you hear it. But I would not say "loud".

Are 9-12 the easy gears or the hard ones? I barely care how a motor sounds on the hard gears because I basically don't use them.

 

[whitymon]

The MGU is not too loud. In gear 9-12 it is nearly not hearable. In lower gears you hear it. But I would not say "loud".

Heavy? What does a deraillieur weight? and a chain? And a cassette? Plus a regular motor? And where is it all the drivetrain stuff placed? In the middle of the bike, for a good balance?

There is no clunky shifting with a MGU. It is a precise electrical sequencial shifting, fast and with really good performance.

Expensive? The MGU costs about 1500EUR.
How much is a SRAM AXS group? Plus BoschCX Motor?

Geo limiting?? I don't know what you mean?

Inefficient? No, it has nearly the same power consumption as BoschCX 4th gen. In several EMTB magazines comparison was already done.


The Nicolai is my first ebike.

My friends have ebikes since ten years now. Several models from several manufacturers. For a lot of them it is absolutely normal that they spend one drivetrain replacement per year! Chain and cassette does not withstand the motor power longer than a season. Even with intense drivetrain cleaning rituals it does not last longer.
This kind of material waste is unacceptable for me.

This was the reason why I planned to wait for the right model with a belt.

The Pinion MGU is the perfect match for my needs.

I am very happy with this lovely piece of german engineering! And I enjoy it with each ride.

Do not confuse the price of MGU, which is still not cheap, expensive still, not all people like or require to have electronic wireless shifting, with the price of the Nicolai MGU.

Nicolai Staturn is expensive as hell, that does not mean it is a bad bike or that it does not comes with good parts, just that for the price, tons of people will never jump on it. I fall and crash a lot due to my type of riding and I cannot fantasize doing this on such an expensive bike, it will break no matter what, it is what it is.

Then I will end us in tears as my wallet would already have a big hole in it - I would also still be in recovery mode from having bought it against my wife.

The frame itself is cool but not especially something that I would say worth this amount of money, nothing magic, plus I do not deserve to spend that much.

Let's also be honest, unless it is the last bike of your life, you will buy another one, surely in max 5 years if not before and loose tons amount of money here for the next big thing.

I would be more interesting to see a pinion motor on YT, Canyon, Commencal and even Propain to a point.

So yeah MGU might be the future, Nicolai MGU just a pioneer, people are free to jump and welcome to as it might help bringing it to other brands.

 

[shib]

Hi all! Registered here coming from Rob's YT channel. I have a frameset on order and can't wait for it. Have binge-watched the build video 374 times or so. Five more weeks to wait...

Nicolai is only 1.5 hours of a drive from here, so I was able to testride the bike before buying. This was the first Nicolai bike that I did not want to buy by the numbers alone, and I absolutely wasn't sure if I will take the plunge on it at all, also for the first time... you know, when you know you really want something, you just find reasons to justify and go for it, but here I wasn't sure if I actually wanted it, it was more of a possibility that "might work" than "I want this, shut up and take my money" kind of thing.

Anyways, I was totally amazed by the shifting performance, and being able to shift while not moving is a real game-changer you didn't know you want. I have (had) many Nicolai bikes, my wife also rides one etc. - yes, they are expensive as fudge, but despite being a very heavy rider I never broke anything (but myself ), and their customer service is second to none. Have a problem or question? Call them, and if you don't reach an aftersales supporter right away, they will call you back and talk you through everything. Have been on the phone with Claus for more than one hour tracking down a creaking seatpost with the new integrated seat clamp, and finally finding the solution - he still sent me a spare part, free of charge, just in case. I wonder if you will get the same with a <insert big name> frame. I waited four months for a warranty replacement of a Santa Cruz frame and went to Nicolai then.

Still, they're expensive. You can get a Bulls Vuca or Simplon Rapcon with the MGU for one to a a few grand less. If that floats your boat, and you like carbon frames, cool! For me, I do not want carbon, and getting a frameset is the only option because I choose all components to last and to my own liking, and getting the Simplon for example and then replacing wheelset, cockpit, brakes and suspension will set me back more than buying the Nicolai framset and use components I have... of course, I also paid for them at some point and the resulting bike will still be expensive. There's no way around it.

My current daily ride is a Saturn 14 Swift with the Bosch SX motor. I like that bike a lot, but upgrading to the MGU will enable me to reduce my bike stock by two - the Swift and the G1 will go and the MGU will replace them both. I hope! The build will be heavy, coil front and rear, but I am too, so I guess it's fine. My G1 weighs 18.5kg and doesn't have a motor. But it surved Finale and me.

The wired shifting of the MGU is actually something I really like too - have AXS shifting on the Swift and always forget to take out the battery when driving by car to my riding spots. Left me with a dead battery on arrival for a few times. Yes, got a spare battery in the car for that. Still annoying. My XC rig is battery-less for that reason. All mechanical. Can't go wrong and if it does, I can fix it trailside.

Regarding drivetrain durability, I'd say it depends a lot on the user... coming from and still also riding acoustic bikes I always unload the cranks before shifting, and don't use the full power modes very often, so wear and tear on my Swift isn't much worse than on my meat motor bikes.

Furthermore, if you combine the weights of a budget drive train, the MGU might be in advantage here, but when comparing weights (and prices) I'd say it would be more reasonable to compare it with top-tier SRAM stuff, and then SRAM wins, weight-wise. Money-wise, I don't know - I know what I paid for the Swift frameset and I know what I pay for the MGU frameset, and the difference gets me quite a few good SRAM drive train components and then something. Haven't done the exact math though.

Time will tell how durable the MGU itself will be. I am aware of a few software problems with uphill downshifts under load that apparently have been solved with the new firmware coming out these days. No idea where and how you can get the firmware though, i.e. find a dealer who does Pinion, or do it yourself via smartphone... we'll see. Owners say that the gearbox part gets (a lot?) quieter after 1000km. We'll see. Gears 1-4 (easiest) are supposed to be loud like hell, depending on who you ask, what mode you're in and how you record the sound... we'll see.

Can't wait anyway.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

First ride.

It’s epic. Coast shifting down the trail automatically is great. Climbing power is very good (more than Bosch in gear 1-4).

No noise going down!! I now need a silent hub!

Gear noise in 1-4 is noticeable and I wish it was not quite as noisy. Kinda like Gen 1 SL noise but slightly louder.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The MGU is not too loud. In gear 9-12 it is nearly not hearable. In lower gears you hear it. But I would not say "loud".

Heavy? What does a deraillieur weight? and a chain? And a cassette? Plus a regular motor? And where is it all the drivetrain stuff placed? In the middle of the bike, for a good balance?

There is no clunky shifting with a MGU. It is a precise electrical sequencial shifting, fast and with really good performance.

Expensive? The MGU costs about 1500EUR.
How much is a SRAM AXS group? Plus BoschCX Motor?

Geo limiting?? I don't know what you mean?

Inefficient? No, it has nearly the same power consumption as BoschCX 4th gen. In several EMTB magazines comparison was already done.


The Nicolai is my first ebike.

My friends have ebikes since ten years now. Several models from several manufacturers. For a lot of them it is absolutely normal that they spend one drivetrain replacement per year! Chain and cassette does not withstand the motor power longer than a season. Even with intense drivetrain cleaning rituals it does not last longer.
This kind of material waste is unacceptable for me.

This was the reason why I planned to wait for the right model with a belt.

The Pinion MGU is the perfect match for my needs.

I am very happy with this lovely piece of german engineering! And I enjoy it with each ride.

I'm stoked, that you are stoked. Still, I stand by my comments based on reviews and just general bike knowledge.

There is no 'perfect' product, and that includes the new Nicolai.

Congrats!

Now I'm off to the DJI thread where that group will proclaim that new technology is absolutely the best thing that exists. The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

 

[shib]

Even though I am a total Nicolai fan boy, I second that. Certain flaws will have a bigger influence for one rider than for another maybe, and for some people, the Nicolai MGU implementation will be perfect, and for others the new DJI thing is perfect... but there is no universal perfect. Looking forward to see how close it gets for me.

@Rob Rides EMTB , thanks for sharing! Looking forward to a possible full review video.

One note, there is this video from a german magazine showing the MGU noise. They start in eco mode and shift through the whole range, then flex, etc. - it is difficult to find, mainly due to a) being german and b) having a SEO un-friendly title and c) because apparently the YouTube algorithm does not like it, but I found it helpful.

Here it is:

 

[whitymon]

I do not think you can compare the two bike because they offer something new.

Totally different geometry and purposes.

Saturn a good Enduro bike, with a feel of 170mm rear and I would definitely put a fox38 170mm up front to complete it.

Amflow, is `just` a trail bike with good range - torque will be irrelevant for a lots of people blablabla.

@shib you killed part of my dream, I hear a motorbike ...

 

[shib]

I'm genuinely sorry! There is no perfect.

Edit: this coming weekend, Nicolai will be holding a "house fair" and being a true fan boy, I will be around of course. I will absolutely swing my leg over a Saturn 16 MGU and ride it up the local dirt hill to get a first person impression about the noise. I rode it on their local test track (which doesn't have elevation) and found the eco mode almost inaudible - for me, only eco and the second weakest mode are relevant, for crawling uphill on long fire roads. When blasting up a technical uphill in turbo mode, motor noise is my smallest problem... not dying due to lack of skill is a bigger one!

Here is another recent video of a real world race on the Saturn MGU, also helps to get an idea about sound:


The guy says he rode in "fly" mode the whole time.

 

[madre]

I dont get the point for a „ Race „ between mgu and dji which one is better. They are only different Technologies. There is no „ better „.

 

[whitymon]

I'm genuinely sorry! There is no perfect.

Edit: this coming weekend, Nicolai will be holding a "house fair" and being a true fan boy, I will be around of course. I will absolutely swing my leg over a Saturn 16 MGU and ride it up the local dirt hill to get a first person impression about the noise. I rode it on their local test track (which doesn't have elevation) and found the eco mode almost inaudible - for me, only eco and the second weakest mode are relevant, for crawling uphill on long fire roads. When blasting up a technical uphill in turbo mode, motor noise is my smallest problem... not dying due to lack of skill is a bigger one!

Here is another recent video of a real world race on the Saturn MGU, also helps to get an idea about sound:


The guy says he rode in "fly" mode the whole time.

Nice video!

Definitely motorbike in some section, I also could not stop myself thinking that it was an overbike choice to take the ST16 overthere

 

[shib]

I mean, without wanting to open a can of worms here, a bike with a motor somehow is a motorbike, no? I understand how one would want a emtb that's as quiet as possible, and I enjoy my Bosch SX bike which is barely audible in Eco mode - but one "problem" that comes with an internal gearbox is that the motor rpm isn't coupled to the spindle/crankarm rpm, but to the output rpm to the rear sprocket, which results in motor noise not being "in sync" with crankarm movement - unlike a normal middle motor, which always is in sync with the crank movement no matter what happens at the rear wheel. Hence the weird noise change from 4 to 5 and 8 to 9, where the internal "front sprocket" changes (when thinking of the gearbox as a 3x4 system with front and rear derailleur), resulting in a different coupling, requiring the motor to spin at a higher rpm. I guess the motor could have been chosen quieter, but that doesn't change the "problem" - even a quiet(er) motor will be loud in gear 4 and not as loud in gear 5. It's a quirk that comes with a internal gearbox. Putting the motor "before" the gears, coupled to the crank/spindle movement like on normal middle motors, would probably have induced too much wear on the gearing, so they put it "after" the gears... technically, I totally understand why they did it. But it's loud.

@madre, I think no one was talking about the MGU being a direct competitor to the DJI motor. We kinda got to that DJI thing due to Suns_PSD jokingly mentioning they would go to the DJI thread and tell them "theirs" just is as imperfect as the MGU is

 

[whitymon]

@shib I honestly do not know what to say. What I meant is that the noise, some, were really close to what I hear with a surron so yeah that made me laugh a bit.

I am not used to have something that make some noise and it is hard to know if it would be of an issue or not. I want to think that I would only hear the motor uphills where no matter what I take no joy, on downhill I do not think I would need much more of it and it seems the noise would be close to none?

This is where I stand, any kind of noise would be catastrophic DH for me as I need to hear everything else.

 

[shib]

I think it's just like that - you hear the motor uphill, with the volume/loudness varying depending on what mode you're in and what cadence you pedal in what gear. Downhill, I don't see a reason why you should be hearing anything at all (from the motor). That's what everyone mentions after riding the Saturn (or in fact any MGU bike). It even made me get a new rear wheel with a silent Onyx hub for total downhill silence.

*edit* I just searched for a few Surron videos. Haha, I know what you mean!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

That's what everyone mentions after riding the Saturn (or in fact any MGU bike). It even made me get a new rear wheel with a silent Onyx hub for total downhill silence.

It’s totally silent. I need that hub, all I could hear was the tick of the DT 350 and it was annoying haha!

 

[whitymon]

It’s totally silent. I need that hub, all I could hear was the tick of the DT 350 and it was annoying haha!

I just switch for the DT 370 and it is damn silent in comparison.

 

[RichMorr]

It’s totally silent. I need that hub, all I could hear was the tick of the DT 350 and it was annoying haha!

Try adding some the DT Swiss special hub grease this will really quieten it down

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Try adding some the DT Swiss special hub grease this will really quieten it down

Yes, I do have a tub, and I use it quite often. However, it doesn’t last very long before it gets noisy again!

 

[shib]

I have the Onyx hub on my XC rig, absolutely love it and the Hope Pro5 (which really isn’t that loud) on my Saturn Swift SO annoys me when I did a few rides on the XC rocket, and switch back to the Swift for some trail riding. Once you tried a silent hub, you‘re spoiled… that’s why I have my wheelbuilder lace up a rear wheel with a Onyx Singlespeed hub for the Saturn MGU.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

that’s why I have my wheelbuilder lace up a rear wheel with a Onyx Singlespeed hub for the Saturn MGU.

Nice! Can you link this please? Interested

 

[Marshall Willanholly]

I love my Onyx, and it has been faultless for a few years now.

Just got one of these, and it’s promising so far:

Silent - Shogun Rear Hub | tairinwheels

**Sept 2023 - The Silent version of the Shogun is here!** With 4 years in the making, we are finally releasing the silent version for the current Shogun MK4, made possible through our research and development testing of different silent clutches. Culminating with a clutch platform developed from...

www.tairinwheels.ca

 

[whitymon]

Impressive!

 

[shib]

Nice! Can you link this please? Interested

Sure: Onyx MTB MFU BOOST ISO HGSS 148/12 Thru-bolt Rear Hub

You can put the normal rear belt sprocket on, it just needs fewer spacers. The freehub tech is great for ebikes as it is super sturdy - no ratchet or pawl interface but sprag clutch. Another benefit is a better driveside spoke angle. And you can get it in all colors. Expensive though…