New Nicolai with Pinion gearbox announced

[Rando_12345]

Cheers! You sound a lot fitter than me, but I am a bit lighter at 75kg.

My point of comparison is that I recently did a big ride with some friends. I was on my giant/Yamaha and used up all 800Wh of the battery to do 1600m of climbing over 40km, but my friends on Bosch bikes only needed 720Wh batteries (we are all roughly in the 75-85kg range.

So if the pinion has the same efficiency as the giant, your numbers are about what I would expect, but I was a bit optimistic that the motor was closer to a Bosch, so would expect closer to 2k vertical climbing with the 960Wh, especially if not using the highest assistance. That said, the terrain, tyres etc all play a part. Also Rob insinuated that the pinion was more powerful than his bosch race motor. Would love some more stats from you after a few rides!

 

[rastablondi]

Could kindly take more detailed pictures please? I am interested in seeing how Nicolai designed the rear sprocket to go without the stubber.

I think they call it "snubber", See here

The new rear sprocket contains "side guidance" instead of "middle guidance" compared to the old one. The belt is the same, I guess. The pictures show that the belt still has the nut in the middle, because the front sprocket still uses the "middle guidance".

Some pictures:

 

[madre]

Cheers! You sound a lot fitter than me, but I am a bit lighter at 75kg.

My point of comparison is that I recently did a big ride with some friends. I was on my giant/Yamaha and used up all 800Wh of the battery to do 1600m of climbing over 40km, but my friends on Bosch bikes only needed 720Wh batteries (we are all roughly in the 75-85kg range.

So if the pinion has the same efficiency as the giant, your numbers are about what I would expect, but I was a bit optimistic that the motor was closer to a Bosch, so would expect closer to 2k vertical climbing with the 960Wh, especially if not using the highest assistance. That said, the terrain, tyres etc all play a part. Also Rob insinuated that the pinion was more powerful than his bosch race motor. Would love some more stats from you after a few rides!

Only for comparison: The bosch battrie is an 750 , there is no 720 Bosch Batterie

 

[Rando_12345]

Only for comparison: The bosch battrie is an 750 , there is no 720 Bosch Batterie

Lapierre glp3

"Bosch Performance line CX-R “25kph” / Powerpack battery 725Wh/ Mini remote + integrated KIOX 300"

It uses external batteries normally used by cargo bikes.

 

[madre]

Lapierre glp3

"Bosch Performance line CX-R “25kph” / Powerpack battery 725Wh/ Mini remote + integrated KIOX 300"

It uses external batteries normally used by cargo bikes.

Ok you got me !!

 

[slickrock]

I think they call it "snubber", See here

The new rear sprocket contains "side guidance" instead of "middle guidance" compared to the old one. The belt is the same, I guess. The pictures show that the belt still has the nut in the middle, because the front sprocket still uses the "middle guidance".

Some pictures:

View attachment 145497 View attachment 145498 View attachment 145499 View attachment 145500 View attachment 145501

I think they call it "snubber", See here

The new rear sprocket contains "side guidance" instead of "middle guidance" compared to the old one. The belt is the same, I guess. The pictures show that the belt still has the nut in the middle, because the front sprocket still uses the "middle guidance".

Some pictures:

That the rear sprocket has end ridges would not change the requirement to obviate a snubber. I think the reason why the ridges are there is for strength reasons, as the sprocket appears to be synthetic. The most likely reason there is no snubber is because the rear sprocket is pretty large (can you count the teeth back there?), where there is enough teeth to keep the the belt from skipping and the moment arm is increased as well, which requires less belt force to achieve sthe same torque.

The snubber really grew out of usage from Rohloff geared hubs, due to torque constraints and the location position of the 1:1 gear, the largest Gates sprocket allowed is 22T, and is small enough to require a snubber to keep the belt from jumping, especially with dual suspension rigs.

I wonder where Nicolai sourced this sprocket or if they home-grew it or subcontracted it out (perhaps to Universal Transmissions?). Does anyone know what gear is 1:1 on the Pinion MGU?

 

[rastablondi]

Nicolai calls it "ANTISKIP".

See official letter attached - sorry I own it only in german language.

The number of teeth are mentioned in the bill of material, screendump attached.

 

[Gandalf]

My new customized Nicolai Saturn 16 MGU in candy red

Intend Edge
Intend Trinity
Rockshox reverb AXS
Punchdisk brake discs
Airtime pedals

Info from the test ride with Vincent in June

Super quiet downhill, no rattling, no chain slap, not audible
Gear changes are very smooth and very fast, shifting under load and when stationary is no problem.
Uphill at high cadence you can hear the gearbox and the motor in gears 1-4

The Saturn 16 MGU is perfect for long tours as well as uphill and downhill single trails, even a visit to a bike park or trail park should work very well. (will catch up )

I was out on a few trails in Schweinfurt Forest today and have to say that the bike goes over roots really quickly. In tight bends up and down you notice the length of the bike, but if you're used to it like I am with the Voima or the EBOXX, it works great. There is nothing to criticise about the built-in suspension (FOX), 160 at the front and 160 at the rear. It absorbed the small jumps like nothing. You also notice that there is less moving mass on the rear wheel.

The right way forward!

Conclusion:
Not a light eMTB with its >27 kg, but perfect for long tours and singletrails
Unfortunately still a little noisy in the lower gears with a high cadence

 

[rastablondi]

I think the reason why the ridges are there is for strength reasons, as the sprocket appears to be synthetic.

The sprocket is made of steel.
I tested it with a magnet.

Only the sprocket cover with the mentioned "end ridges" is made of hard-plastic.

All Gates sprockets seem to be made of "stainless steel", at least the CDX ones which I have found on the Gates webpage
But the new one, which I have on my bike, seems not to be listed there yet.

 

[slickrock]

Nicolai calls it "ANTISKIP".

See official letter attached - sorry I own it only in german language.

The number of teeth are mentioned in the bill of material, screendump attached.

View attachment 145541

Dear Saturn-16-MGU customer,
Within Nicolai GmbH we cultivate a culture of “rapid innovation”. We continuously develop, test and implement new products and features within Nicolai products.
As soon as we are satisfied with the new solutions, we would like to quickly make these innovations available to our customers. Especially when it comes to real innovations.
The latest innovation is called “ANTISKIP”. This is a rear pulley that does not allow the belt to jump. Sounds crazy, but it's reality. Over the last 2 years we have developed a tooth geometry in which the belt hugs the pulley more and more under load.
A snubber (plastic jump protection) is no longer necessary. Wheel removal is simplified.
We are pleased to inform you that your bike is now equipped with this ANTISKIP pulley and hope you enjoy the bike
Kind regards...

So the ridges are there by design; interesting, and looks to be proprietary. May affect efficiency more than a snubber but who cares with an ebike. At 32T in the rear, would only really work with Pinion gearboxes and also 3X3 NINE, possibly. No go with Rohloff.

So what hub is used in the rear wheel and what standard is used to connect the sprocket? Shimano Surefit or Inter 5E or something else?

Nicolai already has the best belt tensioner out there and you can add this new rear sprocket to the list.

 

[rastablondi]

So what hub is used in the rear wheel and what standard is used to connect the sprocket? Shimano Surefit or Inter 5E or something else?

The new Hope Pro 5 hubs are installed there, in the rear in the powerful version for e-bikes. This means 54 engagement points instead of 108, but the locking blades are more robustly dimensioned.

The complete rear wheelset setup, taken from BOM:
"HOPE Rear - FORTUS 30W 29 - Pro 5 E-BIKE 32H - 148mm - HG STEEL"

It is Shimano HG freehub standard, 9-spline.

 

[rastablondi]

I had the bike now on a few trails here on summer vacation in Ossiach Austria, ("Matchy Trail", "Pathy Trail", etc.).
It feels so handy and fat, connected to the ground, traction everytime & everywhere.
A few tree-rollover - works very nice.
And slicky roots, stones and muddy downhill paths are incredibly easy managable. Also rockfields and steps.
I do no jumps - I am too old for it jump time is over for me.
But I would expect it is also good for it.
I never felt it as "too heavy". The opposite is the case: it gives always a feeling of security. What is also a task: never override, keep calm and do not overpace your own limits with this lovely piece of tech.

One little thing is a bit annoying:
Sometimes on uphill when you're in a full power situation and you shift down, it stops shifting and shows "shift error" ("Schaltungsfehler" in german). Then you have to lift your powered foot a bit, klick OK and you can go. But you need to stop completely, because motor stops as well in the error situation.
I had it five times or so in the last 2 days. I hope they will fix it with the next update. Other reported the same as well in other forums.

These were my thoughts of the last 2 days of trail riding. You asked for it - you got it

 

[megabobra]

What's the thought on derestricting the MGU? It looks like it has a standard magnet pickup on the rotor for a speed reading, but surely the fixed gear ratio between the MGU and the wheel will make it difficult?

On a bike with a derailleur you can hide a delay of the reported speed signal (say by 1.4x, increasing limit from 25kph to 35kph for example) since the motor doesn't know what gear you're in and thus doesn't know true relationship between cadence and wheel RPM. But on the MGU, the motor always know what gear its in and knows that the ratio between cadence and wheel RPM is fixed for that gear. So if you pass a delayed speed signal to it, it wouldn't take the MGU long to know that something isn't right...

Thoughts?

 

[Onetime]

What's the thought on derestricting the MGU? It looks like it has a standard magnet pickup on the rotor for a speed reading, but surely the fixed gear ratio between the MGU and the wheel will make it difficult?

On a bike with a derailleur you can hide a delay of the reported speed signal (say by 1.4x, increasing limit from 25kph to 35kph for example) since the motor doesn't know what gear you're in and thus doesn't know true relationship between cadence and wheel RPM. But on the MGU, the motor always know what gear its in and knows that the ratio between cadence and wheel RPM is fixed for that gear. So if you pass a delayed speed signal to it, it wouldn't take the MGU long to know that something isn't right...

Thoughts?

That’s my only concern about the Pinion MGU. Everything sounds great about it, but will it be able to be derestricted? I plan on running 27.5 wheels so it would need to be configured for that to start so I don’t lose even more speed.

 

[DirkWisely]

That’s my only concern about the Pinion MGU. Everything sounds great about it, but will it be able to be derestricted? I plan on running 27.5 wheels so it would need to be configured for that to start so I don’t lose even more speed.

Don't know about derestriction, but you can order it mullet.

 

[rastablondi]

One little thing is a bit annoying:
Sometimes on uphill when you're in a full power situation and you shift down, it stops shifting and shows "shift error" ("Schaltungsfehler" in german). Then you have to lift your powered foot a bit, klick OK and you can go. But you need to stop completely, because motor stops as well in the error situation.
I had it five times or so in the last 2 days. I hope they will fix it with the next update. Other reported the same as well in other forums.

Today I got an email from Pinion Support:

(Translated from german)
The Software-Release for "Auto Shift" update is planned for 24. Sept. 2024.
It includes a bugfix for the "shift error".
Next week a bugfix update will be released which fixes the " shift error" only.

Good to see that Pinion is able to react quick on bug reports.

 

[jsvnm]

Am i the only one tempted to get one with the explorer kit, then hit some jumps in a bikepark with the bags on the bike just because that would look so wrong?

 

[Dirtnvert]

N+1 is the way. Get 2

 

[Madmountainman]

I questioned Sarah about the available finishes on the bike, but she wasn't able to answer my question with a reasonable level of confidence, so i'll ask it here.
Regarding the £400 upgrade to an Anodised Finish, does anyone know if this is a Hard Anodised Finish or the less hard wearing Decorative Finish?
Sarah only mentioned that the extra hard parts were decorative, but was unable to confirm what finish was on the frame if you order it anodised.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Shiny

 

[Paulquattro]

Shiny

View attachment 146177

Nice

Is that clear coated or bare alloy reason i ask is future corrosion issues .

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Nice

Is that clear coated or bare alloy reason i ask is future corrosion issues .

Raw.

From Nicolai:

“You get your frame without coating (also no clear lacquer). Over time, an oxide layer/patina forms on the frame, causing the shine of the raw aluminium to fade slightly. With the help of a polishing fleece, however, the old shine can be restored in a few easy steps. In addition to the unmistakable look, the “factory raw” look best reveals the manufacturing quality and technical charm of the frame.”

 

[Onetime]

Nice

Is that clear coated or bare alloy reason i ask is future corrosion issues .

Raw without a clear coat is fine. It won’t have corrosion issues, just a slight patina that you can leave, or you can polish it off. This is the same as old raw fighter planes or raw intense frames which I still have . Unlike most clear coats which yellow over time and can get all scratched up. The raw is much better looking and lasting. If I end up getting a Nicolai, that’s what I’ll get 100%.

Your bike looks great so far Rob!

 

[Paulquattro]

Thanks for the reply Both of you
My head goes towards a raw finish so thats good just need a Uk dealer now

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Fillet Pinion

 

[DirkWisely]

It's a chonky boy, but still impressive considering what it does in that package.

 

[madre]

Thanks for the reply Both of you
My head goes towards a raw finish so thats good just need a Uk dealer now

4 Years old Raw Nicolai Eboxx . Only cleaned with water and Spüli

 

[GregoryP]

Think this will be my POLE Voima replacement...only thing that worries me a bit is the 160mm rear travel coming from 190.?

Pic for reference

 

[madre]

Think this will be my POLE Voima replacement...only thing that worries me a bit is the 160mm rear travel coming from 190.?

@Gandalf also have both , the Nicolai Pinion MGU and the Pole Voima . Maybe he can give a Feedback ?

 

[jsvnm]

Think this will be my POLE Voima replacement...only thing that worries me a bit is the 160mm rear travel coming from 190.?

it was my second option if i hadn’t found a used voima.