M820 or M510 ?

[souftosouf]

Hello everyone,

I previously owned a Bulls EVO AM1 Bosch Performance CX (GEN 4) with a 650Wh battery, 140mm travel, 203mm discs, and Sram GX Eagle transmission. It was perfect. It got stolen. Since then, I've been using a TSDZ2B for commuting and sometimes just cruising around. It has 85Nm of torque but isn't as powerful as the Bulls.

I want to build a bike, but I can't decide between the M510 and M820.

Pros of M820:

• Lightweight in general, with good-looking frames available (CEF50)
• Newer

Pros of M510:

• More torque and power (711W peak power)
• Standard batteries and removable battery on many frames (DENGFU E82)

I'm seeking advice from people who have owned both a Bafang and a Bosch motor. My questions are as follows:

1. I was in eco mode 95% of the time with the Bosch. But I loved the fact that tour and turbo modes were available if I needed to rush somewhere. Is the M820 much less powerful than the Bosch on max assist? Does it require a lot of input to get the max power?
2. Is the M510 a good motor relative to the Bosch? Does it still have the issues it had at it beginning?
3. What is the feeling with Bafang motors? Does it feel natural when pedaling?

My TSDZ2B is quite good, but I'm looking for much more power on max assist.
I dont know if i care that much about weight, 2kg more is that bad if i get a lot of power

Thanks for your advice.

 

[lkdoido]

Hi, I'm about to enter the world of EMTB, but my wife has a Shimano E7000 with a 504W battery. I believe that the m820 is for enthusiasts who like to have control of the rhythm and will only use ECO, while the m510 is for those who want to enjoy TRAIL without worrying, the removable battery is a very interesting plus. I'm riding the m820 because I lose to the boss on the climbs, but flat, descent or technical sections still dictate the pace. Here in Brazil it is difficult to access most ebikes, some local alternatives and large specialized and trek brands.

 

[Bengy22]

My TSDZ2B is quite good, but I'm looking for much more power on max assist.
I don't know if I care that much about weight, 2kg more is that bad if I get a lot of power

I'm not able to answer most of your questions as I've never ridden both motors but from what I've read / watched online the Gen 4 CX is a beast of a motor if you are expecting the m820 or the m510 to blow it out of the water power wise (as you can tell with your TSDZ2B experience torque figures are not everything) I would say you are going to be disappointed. The m820 is a lightweight motor that doesn't have the power to compete in the full power class. The m510 seems to be close though, I've seen some still claim the CX still felt more powerful but overall very close. I believe Rob and Neeko Devinchi have videos discussing these two motors. If you want a jump in power you might need to go M560

 

[Chris999]

I've recently purchased a M510 Bafang based bike after having a Gen 2 65Nm Bosch for 8 years. Both hardtail bikes and like you I ride predominantly in ECO on the Bosch. I drank the Kool aid when buying the Bafang as it seemed very powerful but after a number of rides decided it was way over the top and I wanted to dial it down. The default m510 has 140% assist on level 1, similar to Tour mode on Bosch. There is no Eco mode on the default tuning. Ended up buying a Bafang Besst tuning kit and set the levels down. Level 1 is now 60% assist with max of 25% motor power (default 50%) and acceleration of 2 (default 4). It is like a different bike to ride. Hence if you go with the Bafang I would factor in the price of a tuning kit.

 

[souftosouf]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I wanted to correct some things that I haven't made clear yet:

My TSDZ2B is really good; I can climb 3% hills at 25kph with almost no effort. If the M820 is as good, I'm fine with that. Buying the best tool is part of the plan. I want a Bafang so I can configure it myself.

So far, the information that I understand:

1. M510 is too powerful out of the box.
2. M820 can't compete with CX Gen 4.

And the question that I have now:

1. What's the purpose of the M820 when the M510 is more powerful for just 0.600g more?
2. Is the M510 reliable?

 

[patdam]

My opinion. After several month of ride with the M820, i have taken the M510 for a week of ride in spain. Finally I love the 2 bike/motor, the only criter of choice will be the guys who will ride with me. if they are assisted, the M510. Unassisted the M820. And when i'm alone, depending the track or my spirit. The M510 is more enduro with 160/170 travel, the M820 more "trail" with 150 travel. For speedy flow tracks, the M510. For slow technical, the M820. The M820 can't climb as slope so step that the M510 as able. The M510 as more hard to drive in down single, slow and hard technicaly. It's also take a little more space when braking. About capacity of the M510 regarding the other major brand motors, nothing less (may be few more ?). With my 100 kg i can follow my friends with a yamaha and shimano sin any problems. A few more consumtion, compasate by larger battery (17Ah/48V in regard of 17Ah/36V). It provide exactely the same result on the batery decreas.

 

[patdam]

About of the interest of M820 regarding M510. It's not only 0.600 gr less, but mostly 2kg. The battery needed to do +- the same thing is also more light (+- 1.5 kg).

 

[Adam Anderson]

CEF50 starts from 17.75KG according to the suppliers. They have the battery option 43v 11.4ah at 2.6kg. It's a great choice to get a super lightweight emtb.

 

[borysgo2]

I can add my 2 cents to the conversation. I have M820 motor equipped bike.
In terms of power, please BOYS and GIRLS, power is not the torque, unit of the power is Watt, the fact that motor have less torque does not mean that have less power. M820 at 43V firmware throws about 580W of power which is a lot. CX4 motor puts maybe about 100W more.

Question is how much of a time You are going to spend on max assistent mode ? If this is the main factor, than bigger, more powerful motor motor would be better.

In my case I am using only first 3 assistent modes from all 5 (M820), so the weight saved on motor can be spend on the bigger battery.

I am riding with the boys with CX4 and EP801 motors and do not feel any need of more powerful motor.

 

[patdam]

I can add my 2 cents to the conversation. I have M820 motor equipped bike.
In terms of power, please BOYS and GIRLS, power is not the torque, unit of the power is Watt, the fact that motor have less torque does not mean that have less power. M820 at 43V firmware throws about 580W of power which is a lot. CX4 motor puts maybe about 100W more.

Question is how much of a time You are going to spend on max assistent mode ? If this is the main factor, than bigger, more powerful motor motor would be better.

In my case I am using only first 3 assistent modes from all 5 (M820), so the weight saved on motor can be spend on the bigger battery.

I am riding with the boys with CX4 and EP801 motors and do not feel any need of more powerful motor.

how many wheight are you ? on which tracks do you ride (km + D+) ? In regard of my charasteristics: 100 kg wheight and moutain ride (30km 1500 d+), i'm disagre with you, i can't follow full motors with the M820. i can't climb 20% during long time, that i can do with the M510.

 

[borysgo2]

how many wheight are you ? on which tracks do you ride (km + D+) ? In regard of my charasteristics: 100 kg wheight and moutain ride (30km 1500 d+), i'm disagre with you, i can't follow full motors with the M820. i can't climb 20% during long time, that i can do with the M510.

I weight about 95kG in the pants so close to 100kG geared up.
Yesterday I have done 40km@1100m about 55% battery used (DIY battery).

''i can't climb 20% during long time, that i can do with the M510''

Please elaborate a bit if possible, is it M820 throttling and loosing power after a long climb ?
In your opinion is the m510 more battery friendly ?

Thanks.

 

[patdam]

"Please elaborate a bit if possible, is it M820 throttling and loosing power after a long climb ?"

In fact as i have quickly power variations in boost (cause too hot following bafang ?), i have adjust my level assist to 20%, 40%, 80%, 90%, 100% and as the differency between S (80%) ans S+ (90%) is very low, i mostly use S to climb hard, never boost. but M510 can provide clearly more power on high level with less torque on cranks, i could said +- 1/3 more. that allow i can climb that i can't with the M820


"In your opinion is the m510 more battery friendly ?" i don't understand that you would mean by "friendly" ? that i can said is that for same use (M820 in S 80% and M510 in T 50%), the M820 consume a lot off less. in the same travel, where i consume 50% with the M510, i consume 30% with the M820 (aproximatively)

Clearly, i can repeat several days in the row the track that your show with the M510. not with the M820, i can do that 1 time, but i need to recuperate physically in following

It's my feeling and i know, it's ofen different than other users.

 

[souftosouf]

Thanks everyone for your replies !

i think i need to try a lightweight motor to make my final decision.
I like the M510 but it seems to have a lot of problems, and i cant find a fork that allow tapered 170mm fork
CEF 50 seems to be the best frame so far

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Personally, I am leaning more towards the M820 system nowadays.
But I still enjoy the power and feel of the M510 when riding with other full-fat emtbs. Especially if everyone rider just sticks the bike into turbo/boost mode

Ultimately, the system is only as good as the implementation and the frame' geometry.
The above being 2 good examples.

With more options to look forward too

 

[LAnton]

Personally, I am leaning more towards the M820 system nowadays.
But I still enjoy the power and feel of the M510 when riding with other full-fat emtbs. Especially if everyone rider just sticks the bike into turbo/boost mode
View attachment 140349
Ultimately, the system is only as good as the implementation and the frame' geometry.
The above being 2 good examples.
View attachment 140353
With more options to look forward too
View attachment 140354

It doesn't seem strange to you. Earlier, dengfu wrote that the stroke of the rear suspension is 170mm. And now he writes 160mm and 150mm.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

It doesn't seem strange to you. Earlier, dengfu wrote that the stroke of the rear suspension is 170mm. And now he writes 160mm and 150mm.

I reserve judgement until I've built up both and have my suspension chap determine the rear wheel axle path and measure the vertical rear wheel travel

 

[souftosouf]

Thanks everyone for your reply, i think i'll get a M820 since i almost never used neither turbo with my previous bike.
I'll compensate the 75NM by getting a biger crank length if needed.
I'll update this thread once i finish my bike.

 

[lkdoido]

HI, I made the same considerations and here in Brazil, in the region where I travel, there are few climbs over 100m and a 20% gradient, today I already do these XC sections without a motor, so a little help is enough. As I'm not a jumper I'll keep the 170mm crank. Big hug and happiness in your choice.

 

[temon10]

Been using some bafang motors, from BBS02 750W, M600, M500, M410, M510 and now build 2 M820 system. I think for now and for me M820 is the best for riding eMTB. Less weight make different handling for thin person like me (55kg).
This are my 2 build of M820.

 

[azure]

The main question is: what about the weight of the bike? If you want a lightweight bike and it is the most important parameter for you, choose the M820. Otherwise, the M510 will provide a wider range of options.

I have two bikes with Bosch CX 4gen motors, one with 75 Nm soft, the other with 85 Nm. The one with 85 Nm is too powerful for me in Tour mode.
My new bike with the M510 seems to be similar in feel to the Bosch CX4, but I can set the power steering as I want.
So for the first level I set it to 10% with a legal speed limit, the second to 20% and the third to 50%.

This results in a range of more than 150 km using the first level of assist(840 Wh). After 140 km I had 40% energy (I'm about 95 kg).

 

[hathro]

I've recently purchased a M510 Bafang based bike after having a Gen 2 65Nm Bosch for 8 years. Both hardtail bikes and like you I ride predominantly in ECO on the Bosch. I drank the Kool aid when buying the Bafang as it seemed very powerful but after a number of rides decided it was way over the top and I wanted to dial it down. The default m510 has 140% assist on level 1, similar to Tour mode on Bosch. There is no Eco mode on the default tuning. Ended up buying a Bafang Besst tuning kit and set the levels down. Level 1 is now 60% assist with max of 25% motor power (default 50%) and acceleration of 2 (default 4). It is like a different bike to ride. Hence if you go with the Bafang I would factor in the price of a tuning kit.

@Chris999 - I recently purchased a Rever Sport too.

Can you please let me know which tool you purchased and which software you used/settings to get your bike to behave the way you wanted?

I agree, level 1 is still too much assist!

Thank you.

 

[kaaskopf]

As a heavier rider, i prefer the m510.

You talk about problems, i do not have seen any for the last 2 years so what are we talking about ?

i ride mostly in eco trail and sport. the m510 might be a little heavier but is also more quiet.
im 105kg and when i want i can drive in boost for 2 hours without overheating on a hot day.

i have multiple bikes and all with m510 motor. for me it has been very reliable for some years now

i ride with non assisted friends on eco, or sport+ with other full emtbs.
in boost its faster than anybody else. my e10 has 840wh which is bigger than most and i always finish around 30-40%

 

[Rosz]

New guy here ...looking to get my first eMTB. So far only using my legs uphill ...

From all the research I've done I came across 3 options:

1. Convert my XC bike with tsdz2. Cheap, easy to self maintain but potentially bad chain line and overheating issues. Less powerful. Will look ugly ...

2. Berria ebike with M510. Very well specs for the price. A bit afraid of the bad M510 reputation (at least for the first versions). I am not expecting huge support from Bafang ... basically you are on your own.

3. Cube with Bosch CX 4 smart system. Same price as Berria but maybe just a little less on specs (wouldn't be noticed really). Proven motor. Warranty most likely will be respected for the 2 years period. But closed system ...after the 2 years period you are on your own ..and more expensive parts.

I must say the possibility to unlocking the speed of M510 is tempting .... (I have always wonder why if EU restrictions are sooo important they keep selling cars that can drive more than 200 km/h ...in a 140 km/h max allowed speed in my country...a bit of double standards)


I hope this form will help me make the right choice

Thanks

 

[temon10]

New guy here ...looking to get my first eMTB. So far only using my legs uphill ...

From all the research I've done I came across 3 options:

1. Convert my XC bike with tsdz2. Cheap, easy to self maintain but potentially bad chain line and overheating issues. Less powerful. Will look ugly ...

2. Berria ebike with M510. Very well specs for the price. A bit afraid of the bad M510 reputation (at least for the first versions). I am not expecting huge support from Bafang ... basically you are on your own.

3. Cube with Bosch CX 4 smart system. Same price as Berria but maybe just a little less on specs (wouldn't be noticed really). Proven motor. Warranty most likely will be respected for the 2 years period. But closed system ...after the 2 years period you are on your own ..and more expensive parts.

I must say the possibility to unlocking the speed of M510 is tempting .... (I have always wonder why if EU restrictions are sooo important they keep selling cars that can drive more than 200 km/h ...in a 140 km/h max allowed speed in my country...a bit of double standards)


I hope this form will help me make the right choice

Thanks

Last version of M510 is very good and reliable.

 

[Rosz]

Last version of M510 is very good and reliable.

The problem is that I have no way to know which version of M510 is in the bike ...

 

[kaaskopf]

its written on the motor fc1.0 was troublesome and is old now.
fc2.0 is decent
most recent is fc 2.1 and this feels the best

i have 4 bikes with m510. 1 with newest engine and i love it


before i had a tsdz2 bike
the build quality of this engine is extreemly low
- when it works it works fine
but in 9 months i cracked 4 casings, broke 3 axles and fried 3 controllers
it works fine for a city bike but not for mtb...

m820 is for the lighter guys, as im 100kg dude myself i prefer the power of m510. its a nice and balanced engine with good build quality.
been using them for 4 years and no problems yet

 

[Rosz]

What about the Bosch CX 4....isn't this the "safe" choice? I mean it's been around quite some time and it will likely be more reliable