Ebike weight - does it make a difference ?

[flash]

Problem being, the OP, and I guess most of us who ride full fat eebs, haven't got a hope of getting the weight sub 22.6kg.

My older (2019) e160-900 with 170mm Lyrik ultimate, X2 shock, XT 11 speed, 4 pot brakes, pedals and computer weighs 22.8kg. This is partly helped by the external battery and the 504wH capacity. The only carbon on my bike is the handle bars which is for vibration damping not weight savings.

Bike weight matters. But in my case I need to lose weight first. Once I get closer to fighting weight then weight savings off the bike will matter more but it still helps. The bigger the rider the less bike weight savings help. I start my light weight bike build next week (eZesty) and I'll have that around 17.5-18kg when I'm finished. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to my current bikes.

Gordon

 

[Philly G]

What are you even talking about?

My E8000 504wh 170mm travel FS Eeb is 21.3kg

100%, you're right, I f**ked up ?

 

[Gary]

Getting it significantly lighter now is going to cost you a fair bit

it really doesn't always have to though. Especially if you've bought a base level bike

for instance

I changed out the wheelset and cassette and saved 1.2kg but overall cost came in at around £1200..

Can you list exactly what the component parts that cost you £1200 were?
and the OEM parts you took off?
You may actually be surprised at which component parts are significantly lighter.
eg. front 15x110 hubs are rarely any more than 20g difference between super expensive and entry level.
Even most budget spec rear 12x148 hubs these days come with sealed bearings and an alu freehub body so are no longer boat anchors but you might be able to save 90g if you're lucky by "upgrading" to a £300 hub.
OEM Eeb rims are often not much more than 550-600g each (and personally I'd be reluctant to go under 520g with the notable exception of DTs 571 or a Stans Flow). Yeah, you could go carbon, but they're rarely lighter and certainly not stronger (in some aspects)
Spokes. you're really unlikely to be wanting to use less than 32 spokes or anything lighter than DB 2.0/1.8 spokes so your only real choice is in reality is DB or plain guage. where there's a saving of around 25g per wheelset between the two.
nipples. alu nipple sare a third of the weight of brass but TBH you'd be an idiot to use Alu if you actually want to hold onto the wheels for any length of time. (Alu is soft and the threads prone to corrosion and siezing with the steel spokes and hence become a nightmare to true over time)
so what sort of weight is a £1200 wheelset really likely to save you over most OEM wheelsets? 200g? Yeah. probably/

You can lose 1.2g from a lot of OEM Eeb wheel package for considerably less than £1200
The biggest weight loss comes from Tyres, tubes. (and this will also make the biggest difference to the bike's handling with massively improved acceleration and nimbleness.
2x DH (or E-bike specific) casing tyres will weigh around 2600g. and the thick tubes a lot of manufacturers spec can weigh upwards of 300g a piece
Swapping out heavy DH casing tyres (when let's face it you're not a pro level DH racer, and may rarely even ride rough long steep DH tracks) to Exo casing tyres alone can save 1kg
Swapping out those heavy tubes to 120g of tubeless sealant per tyre and you've probably saved yet another 400g
so that 1.2kg can easily be saved for under £100

You mentioned cassettes. I still find it odd that Ebikers crave super low ratio wide range cassettes when in reality most of them rarely ride any steeper climbs than normal mtbs do. If you ride normal mtb terrain you should ideally be able to cope just fine with LESS range and a SMALLER, Lighter, more durable cassette. Which BTW will be far cheaper and lower the long term running costs of your Ebike massively.

and you need strong on an eeb

This is a huge misconception
Stronger parts are no more a requirement on an Ebike than the equivalent normal bike. ie. a bike of similar geometry, travel and intended use. ie. XC, trail, enduro or DH. rideen by the same rider.
A heavy clumsy rider will obviously benefit from stronger parts than a light precise rider same as normal bikes.

 

[TheBikePilot]

I’m heavy and clumsy, what can I say.

DT Swiss rims and a new cassette.

I’d say 90% of riders on here aren’t up to your standards Gary!!

 

[wepn]

I’d say 90% of riders on here aren’t up to your standards Gary!!

I'd say 100%.

 

[paquo]

so what sort of weight is a £1200 wheelset really likely to save you over most OEM wheelsets? 200g? Yeah. probably/

although maybe just a bit of weight loss theoretically you are also getting quicker engagement higher quality hubs not just weight loss

 

[Gary]

I’m heavy and clumsy, what can I say.

I'm heavy too bro. Age and Eebs can do that to a dude

DT Swiss rims and a new cassette.

£1200 for a couple of DT rims and a cassette?
Or did you mean a complete DT wheelset?
and what lightweight mtb cassette?
£300 XX1 is a whole 15g lighter than a (All steel) £30 Deore 11-36

I’d say 90% of riders on here aren’t up to your standards Gary!!

I'm not even really sure what that means. I'm just an old guy who used to go big and fast. I don't really do either by my standards of old anymore. and certainly not by new school young guy standards One bonus of slowing down is I generally ride smooth most of the time nowadays so even when I'm having fun getting sideways I don't really break stuff. (except motors)

 

[Gary]

quicker engagement higher quality hubs

not necessarily

eg. Plenty folk would regard Hope hubs as high(er) quality and are happy to pay a premium believing they have bought a superior product. Thing is, nothing about a Hope hub is particularly special. especially the engagement point count.
120point engagement rear hubs of similar quality/design are available for £50-80. full wheels (with quality spokes, build and rims and adecent overall weight) for £100ish.

 

[Norcalsl]

Yes, it definitely makes a difference if you have to lift it over a fence like this. One of the reasons I have a 35 lbs. Levo SL.

 

[Binhill1]

How deep is your wallet?

Getting it significantly lighter now is going to cost you a fair bit and it becomes the cost/benefit.

Light strong parts cost a lot, and you need strong on an eeb. I would say just enjoy your bike and at the next purchase look at a lighter model. If you can demo an SL or something give it a try.

I changed out the wheelset and cassette and saved 1.2kg but overall cost came in at around £1200..

Sooner we can custom build the better 1st off the shelf model I've had since 5 bikes ago .

 

[Binhill1]

Yes, it definitely makes a difference if you have to lift it over a fence like this. One of the reasons I have a 35 lbs. Levo SL.

View attachment 38722

Gets heavier the older you get . Worst bit putting it on back carrier or the dreaded deer style

 

[Hob Nob]

I've never ridden a really heavy e-bike, spent some time on a Levo SL - of which the concept is great, but the geometry & weedy components are sub optimal if you like riding with a DH bias.

Friends on SL's, which they have coil'd them & put a 36/Lyrik on & it's only a kilo lighter than my Rail. Which to be fair isn't stock & lighter than normal, but, really not much different in the real world.

The 'E'nduro SL concept could be the one though

 

[Binhill1]

I've never ridden a really heavy e-bike, spent some time on a Levo SL - of which the concept is great, but the geometry & weedy components are sub optimal if you like riding with a DH bias.

Friends on SL's, which they have coil'd them & put a 36/Lyrik on & it's only a kilo lighter than my Rail. Which to be fair isn't stock & lighter than normal, but, really not much different in the real world.

The 'E'nduro SL concept could be the one though

How light is light . Levo 21kg I think even if you could knock 5kg off it wont be light
full sus Nicolai is not light 30lbs. Son's Santa Cruz highball now that's light.

 

[Hob Nob]

How light is light . Levo 21kg I think even if you could knock 5kg off it wont be light
full sus Nicolai is not light 30lbs. Son's Santa Cruz highball now that's light.

This is true, one persons light, is another persons tank.

I'm not used to anything really sub 30lbs, because I come from a gravity biased riding world, so light doesn't last when riding & racing!

 

[Mteam]

Dont think there's much I could change on my ebike to make it any lighter without compromising on performance. A narrow range cassette might be worthwhile, as there's no way I need the full range that this cassette has (as long as I dont run out of battery) , but even then it only saves 150g. I'll wait until this one is worn out then think about getting a narrower range one.

The tyres are already tubeless, and I need doubledown casing tyres or I get punctures, so no weight to be saved there.

Before I bought it I was dithering about whether a carbon frame was worthwhile on an ebike, but now I've got it I wouldnt want anything much heavier (22 point something Kg) if only for the ball ache of lifting the thing over fences and stiles.

I guess an easy'ish way to lose a significant bit of weight is to go for a much smaller battery for those shorter rides where you dont need to be carrying around the weight of a large battery, but even this seems a bit excessive/pointless.

 

[TheBikePilot]

Dont think there's much I could change on my ebike to make it any lighter without compromising on performance. A narrow range cassette might be worthwhile, as there's no way I need the full range that this cassette has (as long as I dont run out of battery) , but even then it only saves 150g. I'll wait until this one is worn out then think about getting a narrower range one.

The tyres are already tubeless, and I need doubledown casing tyres or I get punctures, so no weight to be saved there.

Before I bought it I was dithering about whether a carbon frame was worthwhile on an ebike, but now I've got it I wouldnt want anything much heavier (22 point something Kg) if only for the ball ache of lifting the thing over fences and stiles.

I guess an easy'ish way to lose a significant bit of weight is to go for a much smaller battery for those shorter rides where you dont need to be carrying around the weight of a large battery, but even this seems a bit excessive/pointless.

We had the 8 speed on the Mondraker and feedback was always felt like you weren't in the right gear for most riding. I'd say that's more downhill focussed. Some may be OK with it, but honestly, I think what you have is good.

I would just enjoy the bike and look at a lighter version at your next iteration.

A new battery is going to set you back £5-600 for a 300-400g saving. At the price you paid it's never going to be 'light' without spending enough to make it comparable in price to other 'light' bikes on the market.

@Gary Yes it was a full DT Swiss Wheelset (and lighter tyres) as I am pretty brutal on wheels!

 

[Binhill1]

This is true, one persons light, is another persons tank.

I'm not used to anything really sub 30lbs, because I come from a gravity biased riding world, so light doesn't last when riding & racing!

Yes only heavy bike I used before ebike was kona stab hired in morzine[
full blown downhill reminded me on mottocross bike. First bike a Gary Fisher Hookooekoo hardtail before down hill bikes invented 86 /87 that's about 15 years ago . Amazing what is on offer now QUOTE="Hob Nob, post: 204412, member: 10057"]
This is true, one persons light, is another persons tank.

I'm not used to anything really sub 30lbs, because I come from a gravity biased riding world, so light doesn't last when riding & racing!
[/QUOTE]

 

[Waynemarlow]

20 -22kg is fine to lift over stiles, fences and logs etc, 25.5kg like the Rail and Scott is a pain and just tips the scales enough to have to look only for paths with no or opening gates, in our area that limits you.

Quite funny to watch all of us who have converted our old full suspenders like our 29ers with the TSDZ2 engine ( about 21kgs with 400Wh battery ), simply lift them over our head and walk through the styles or restricted swing gates and then turn around and see those on commercial Ebikes discussing how they are going to help each other through. Usually 2 on the lift side and one on the other side, doable but a pain.

 

[jcmonty]

In my personal experience, eliminating weight at the wheel/tires/cassette makes the most noticeable difference in handling and acceleration. The is obvious - as it’s rotating, unsprung mass. Suspension starts to work a bit more effectively as well.

 

[Gary]

We had the 8 speed on the Mondraker and feedback was always felt like you weren't in the right gear for most riding.

Remember 8 speed cassettes were generally 11-28t and paired up with a double or triple chainset and a front mech.
An 8 speed 11-28 and a 24/36 chainset gave pretty much gave the same range a single 32t ring and modern 12 speed wide ratio cassette does today. (albeit with a few overlaps and gears you wouldn't actually use because of cross chaining)

I agree 8 speed cassettes with a super wide ratio and single ring is a completely stupid idea for any sort of mtbing.

 

[Varaxis]

All the extra weight on my ebike goes to draining the battery and wearing out the brake pads.

I've been choosing reliability over weight savings, since I've been wanting to push the prospect of exploring more with the help of the battery.

 

[steve_sordy]

How deep is your wallet?

Getting it significantly lighter now is going to cost you a fair bit and it becomes the cost/benefit.

Light strong parts cost a lot, and you need strong on an eeb. I would say just enjoy your bike and at the next purchase look at a lighter model. If you can demo an SL or something give it a try.

I changed out the wheelset and cassette and saved 1.2kg but overall cost came in at around £1200..

I have been saying for ages that saving weight costs £1/gram. Nice to see someone else having that experience.

 

[Varaxis]

Off-topic: Does anyone else just "lift and drop" their emtb when dealing with fences?

For me, once the e-bikes wheels are over the fence, I let it fall straight so it lands on its wheels. If it's a short fence, sometimes I catch the handlebar, but usually I make it so the bike lands on its side (away from the fence/barrier), where the handlebar hits on its end and the bike is propped up by the pedal. I expect the pedal to spin upon bouncing, so no point in aligning it at 12 o'clock.

My e-bike's just too heavy to be arsed with bending over while reaching, and straining my back in the process, to place the emtb down gently. I don't have parts on the ebike to baby really though, besides the brake levers.

Also, does anyone else practice lifting their bike? Like as a form of weight/resistance training, while at the trailhead while waiting for ride buddies? Tallest I've had to deal with is loading onto a tall pick-up truck.

 

[Binhill1]

Off-topic: Does anyone else just "lift and drop" their emtb when dealing with fences?

For me, once the e-bikes wheels are over the fence, I let it fall straight so it lands on its wheels. If it's a short fence, sometimes I catch the handlebar, but usually I make it so the bike lands on its side (away from the fence/barrier), where the handlebar hits on its end and the bike is propped up by the pedal. I expect the pedal to spin upon bouncing, so no point in aligning it at 12 o'clock.

My e-bike's just too heavy to be arsed with bending over while reaching, and straining my back in the process, to place the emtb down gently. I don't have parts on the ebike to baby really though, besides the brake levers.

Also, does anyone else practice lifting their bike? Like as a form of weight/resistance training, while at the trailhead while waiting for ride buddies?

Nice one , training yes and remember to do your stretches before and after. I drop it but not from top of deer fence.

 

[Gary]

I have been saying for ages that saving weight costs £1/gram.

Yeah. you have.
It's still not actually true, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Reducing the weight of my Eeb by 2kg cost around £90. I've no idea what you'd spend the further £1910 on.

 

[steve_sordy]

Its a range. On another thread I read this evening someone showed the cost of all the SRAM 12-speed options and how much they weighed. I looked at the GX and the cost vs weight saving was £1.50/gm (vs the top of the range). I agree that you can save weight more cheaply by tyre selection, going tubeless etc. What set me off on this £1/gm thing was when I was going to replace a saddle that had been OE on the bike. The saddle was part of a range from WTB and the saddle I bought eventually was £60 cheaper and conveniently was 60gm heavier. I have noticed this before many times. The psychologists would call this confirmation bias, ie that I only look for / see / notice examples that confirm my assumption. That may be true, but I have been expecting to see the £1/gm rising steadily over the years, if only though inflation.

What I'm talking about is not the base cost per gm of the item, but the different cost per gm of a similar item from the range (like the WTB saddles example above).

I am not claiming £1/gm is a universal law, it's just a bit of fun is all.

I mean, like wow, it's £1000/kg!!!

Look at the cost difference between a range of bikes by one manufacturer and then look at the weight saving you get by moving up the range paying more and getting a lighter bike. £1000/kg or what? (ish)

 

[neiloxford]

It would be good if Rob or somebody else could compare say the Trek Rail 5 with the Trek Rail 9.8.

With the rear and front suspension being the same components, and with the tyres being made to be the same as well. Means its a weight comparison not a supension/grip comparison.

Compare times to go up a hill, average of 3 runs each. Then the same for downhill.

 

[Mteam]

It would be good if Rob or somebody else could compare say the Trek Rail 5 with the Trek Rail 9.8.

With the rear and front suspension being the same components, and with the tyres being made to be the same as well. Means its a weight comparison not a supension/grip comparison.

Compare times to go up a hill, average of 3 runs each. Then the same for downhill.

It probably wont make that much difference to times just riding uphill, its more about how the weight affects the handling of the bike, eg the ease of change lines/direction, the ease of hopping over things, lifting the front wheel etc etc. All this is pretty subjective though , so difficult/impossible to measure.

The difference in speed going up a smooth hill between a 25 kg bike and a 21kg bike would be negligable I would expect .

 

[Shjay]

I mulleted my e-Sommet & it feels lighter at front main reasons the Mezzer is lighter than Yari with Smashpot & Yari up, also the tyre on 29er rim although a MM is lighter casing, the front end is also slightly higher 170mm 27.5 to 160mm 29er have lowered bars 5mm but higher front end makes front easier to lift still need to Set up suspension more which can’t do with a tag along attached as not pushing it ?

 

[Gary]

Lighten the rear end too.
Eventually you'll have an overall lighter well balanced bike ?