One of the way to overcome this is to change the riding style and start using the rear brakes like a clutch to control the surging. It helps when you are climbing steeps or over obstacles to modulate the torque.
Bafang M500 and M600 motors
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
Baja Rick
New Member
Thanks for the idea. I live in an area with some quite technical trails that require a lot of delicate maneuvering when climbing. I was hoping find a solution that does not add another new response from me like braking while climbing. After my ride today I have switched from 5 to 3 assist levels so I am hoping that may help a bit and I will not need to move between the assist levels as much as I was doing to try and manage the motor.
Use PAS 9 levels. It will tame the torque by a bit.
Baja Rick
New Member
Thanks. I will test the various PAS modes. During more research last night I came upon one piece of information that indicated that it was important to use the provided 170mm Bafang crank arms as they somehow delivered a message to the torque sensor. I like shorter cranks and was hoping to ride a 160mm or 165mm but being unable easily find those, I installed a very short set of 150mm set made by Luna which had the proper spline for the Bafang motor. Last night I put the stock Bafang cranks on and took a very short test outing and it may be working better. A real test ride is next. Hopeful. I shall report. I also installed a 34T chainring but I would not think that would make a difference in feeding information to the torque sensor. Thoughts?
As far as I know the Bafang arms are nothing special. There are plenty of people who have either replaced them as you did, or even cut the originals down (which I'm thnking of doing as 1: I'm short and 2: I'm sick of bashing cranks). That said, it is conceivable that changing the crank length does result in increased cadence, and pedalling faster does definitely cause the motor to output more power.
I've just learned to live with the surge now. Though it does occasionally result in the tip of my saddle ending up somewhere unpleasant as I attempt to mount my bike!
I've just learned to live with the surge now. Though it does occasionally result in the tip of my saddle ending up somewhere unpleasant as I attempt to mount my bike!
Do you have a cadence sensor?
Compare the average / maximum cadence on short and long cranks
Baja Rick
New Member
I do not have a cadence sensor. I will take a ride on the same trail today with the 170mm cranks that I rode the 150mm on a couple days ago and report. Thanks.
Baja Rick
New Member
Wow, What a difference! The 170mm cranks really seems to engage the torque sensor compared to the 150mm cranks. The motor gave me much more back exactly when asked for. Different leverage angles? Not sure why this is, but happy with the change. With the 150mm set on, the motor felt almost exclusively cadence driven. Before this change, I was not sure the M600 was the motor for me, now I know it will be OK. I do not think the torque feedback is quite as good as my E8000 was, but very workable now and I am sure as I ride it more, it will become increasingly more comfortable. I rode 160mm cranks on the E8000 so the 170mm I now have on the M600 had more rock strikes, but that will change as I adjust to the longer cranks. Does anyone know if the BESST tool works with Mac and PC. I have a Mac system and would like to stay on top of the latest firmware available. Sounds like the 14.6 version improves torque feedback a bit.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Basic sum of Power equals torque times cadence. Are you simply having to apply extra torque of the longer cranks on a motor that likes lower cadences compared to your previous motor that likes higher cadences but less torque to obtain the same power, Remember this is a much more powerful motor than the E8000 and will have much larger copper windings and will / should be much more torque biased .
Sorry I’ve not ridden an E8000 to get comparable data but I’m getting completely a different feedback than yourself where I’m finding the shorter cranks suiting this motor better than longer.
I am a bit of an outlier here though as I use 52 volt batteries which pushes the max cadence up somewhat into more what I’m used to on my analogue and hence the likeness of the shorter cranks.
Sorry I’ve not ridden an E8000 to get comparable data but I’m getting completely a different feedback than yourself where I’m finding the shorter cranks suiting this motor better than longer.
I am a bit of an outlier here though as I use 52 volt batteries which pushes the max cadence up somewhat into more what I’m used to on my analogue and hence the likeness of the shorter cranks.
Baja Rick
New Member
Maybe a style difference as well. I am a big guy and used to ride a 177.5mm crank set on my road bike at a moderate cadence but with lots of climbing power. Maybe I am able to power up the longer cranks easier than the shorter ones because of the way my body is configured.
I had before an canyon spectral on (E8000) and clearly i found the M600 a lot of more powerful and stronger. I've not the same feelings than you I find same the first level (of 9) too powerfull and wil appreciate if i can reduce a few the 1st level assist.
I have limit speed to 27 km/h to limit the powerfull increase too higher for my pleasure
About crank length, i have built one pair in 155, but never used. I don't see necessity, i knock ground a lot less than spectral with rear schock in lower position, +- same with schock high and 170 fork, but i have 216x63 and 160 fork on the E10.
Clearly for my point of vue and my practice (long ride on moutain) the E10/M600 is a lot of more appreciable than spectral/e8000, good bike, more fun but too physically exhausting and less safety than E10
I have limit speed to 27 km/h to limit the powerfull increase too higher for my pleasure
About crank length, i have built one pair in 155, but never used. I don't see necessity, i knock ground a lot less than spectral with rear schock in lower position, +- same with schock high and 170 fork, but i have 216x63 and 160 fork on the E10.
Clearly for my point of vue and my practice (long ride on moutain) the E10/M600 is a lot of more appreciable than spectral/e8000, good bike, more fun but too physically exhausting and less safety than E10
Yes, there are screw threads for the chain guard bracket that came with the motor
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Not sure where Rob is with his order of the new M510 motor, but in conversation with Melody ( Dengfu ) she is not expecting to be able to dispatch the M510's until April 2022.
Baja Rick
New Member
Do we know if the M510 will fit in the frame correctly to provide an alternative to the M600?
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
As far as preliminary briefings from Bafang go, the M510 is a direct replacement for the M500. As both the M500 and M600 share the same frame bolt dimensions then you would have to sort of think that it will just fit straight in.
Baja Rick
New Member
That's what I was guessing. It sounds like the m510 might be somewhere in the middle between the M500 and M600 in terms of deliverable power and, I am hoping, perhaps superior torque sensing than I experience with the M600. I could use a bit less high speed power than the M600 has if I can find an option (M510 possibly) that gives me greater control at reduced speed on areas requiring trail agility. It sounds like Bafang will not be releasing the 510 for open sale until spring 2022 as far as I can discern. Would like to give one a try when possible.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Sort of agree but I'm not sure you will get the torque sensing in the way you hope for. The M600 actually measures torque really well, its just the initial ramp up of the motor on even the lowest settings ( mine will pull 450 - 500W's in the ramp up momentarily from zero cadence in level 1 ) and a slow ramp down once there's no torque input. That over eager ramp up gives the impression of very little torque sensing as you back off on the peddles to compensate and the motor momentarily continues to ramp up. You can test this by putting pressure on the peddles and let the motor ramp up and then settle back ( the App has a Watt metre to watch ) and then reapply pressure again, you can see the motor now reacts in a more civilised way without that fast ramp up as it now has some cadence to work with.
I think the firmware programmers have done this to make those who like the sensation of " initial blast off " power ( talk to any US owner who wants even more takeoff oomph ) happy without realising out on the tighter trails they will be unhappy. I've seen this before when very very experianced riders are used to set the parameters, rather than the more usual rider who tends to ride slower through the tight stuff.
One thing I have found is that shorter cranks helps a lot and once you can get used to the slightly long over run on the motor ramp down it's actually a motor that can be used even in very tight trails. I think it also has a brake cutoff which will give instant reset of the motor if the run on is creating a problem for you. On the original BBS02 I had, I put a cutoff on the rear brake and that worked a real treat in the tight. Here in the UK locally I encounter a lot of uphill steps and mud, that run on is desirable and I wouldn't want to change it.
If Bafang could bother to actually get their App working properly and let us the riders set the ramp up and levels then they would have a pretty good motor to play with. The same App will even upgrade the firmwares on some of the screens, but as yet Bafang haven't integrated that fully.
If the App was sorted and could talk properly to the motor and allow riders to play with the motor parameters as almost every other manufacturer now does, would there be any advantage of the M510 over the M600 other than weight, with the downside of the M510 will be set to 25kph cut off.
I think the firmware programmers have done this to make those who like the sensation of " initial blast off " power ( talk to any US owner who wants even more takeoff oomph ) happy without realising out on the tighter trails they will be unhappy. I've seen this before when very very experianced riders are used to set the parameters, rather than the more usual rider who tends to ride slower through the tight stuff.
One thing I have found is that shorter cranks helps a lot and once you can get used to the slightly long over run on the motor ramp down it's actually a motor that can be used even in very tight trails. I think it also has a brake cutoff which will give instant reset of the motor if the run on is creating a problem for you. On the original BBS02 I had, I put a cutoff on the rear brake and that worked a real treat in the tight. Here in the UK locally I encounter a lot of uphill steps and mud, that run on is desirable and I wouldn't want to change it.
If Bafang could bother to actually get their App working properly and let us the riders set the ramp up and levels then they would have a pretty good motor to play with. The same App will even upgrade the firmwares on some of the screens, but as yet Bafang haven't integrated that fully.
If the App was sorted and could talk properly to the motor and allow riders to play with the motor parameters as almost every other manufacturer now does, would there be any advantage of the M510 over the M600 other than weight, with the downside of the M510 will be set to 25kph cut off.
@Waynemarlow did you buy shorter cranks, or cut a set down yourself?
Baja Rick
New Member
The only set of shorter cranks I initially found with the proper spline that I have tried was the Luna 150mm and for me they were way too short. Would be happy to try a set of 160 or 165s
How tall are you?
the luna shorter crank are built on the original cranks, it is impossible (cranks design) to have more than 152.5 by modified the original cranks. i have built one pair whold i never use, if somebody interessted, i cann exchange it for standard cranck.
About max power of the M600, with mine i have limit the speed to 27 km/h and the functioning satisfy me, i will appreciate a 1st level (on 5 used) a little bet less powerfull, but it is not for a problem on technical trail, just to stay with my friends whitout e-bike when uphill.
About max power of the M600, with mine i have limit the speed to 27 km/h and the functioning satisfy me, i will appreciate a 1st level (on 5 used) a little bet less powerfull, but it is not for a problem on technical trail, just to stay with my friends whitout e-bike when uphill.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
I bought the Luna 150's which sounds so short, but in practice they seem to suit the motor and the E10 which has a somewhat low bottom bracket height on the 150mm travel at the back. You can read a lot of the American Emtb forums where they have had the M600 for what is it, 3 years now and its almost universal to go over to the short cranks. The Lunar cranks are not expensive and rather than butcher your own cranks, they are a good alternative if you take into account the time to machine your own.
I had thought personally 150mm was way to short, but was pleasantly surprised how quickly my riding adapted to the shorties. I was also surprised at a recent meet up here of 20 various Ebikes, just how many bikes had short cranks fitted. Also quite a few bikes are now being factory delivered with shorties on so some of the manufacturers are also thinking along these lines. One thing is for sure though, the M600 is way more powerful than even the Brose 1.3 and the reduction of perhaps say 30W's of useful leverage from the longer cranks is going to be insignificant to the M600.
Perhaps you may be brave enough to start a thread out on the General forum on the pros and cons of short cranks on an Emtb, I'm sure it will be a love or hate them experience for the posters, but in amongst them you may get a few nuggets of info.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Sadly so in regards to the Bafang only spline on the crank.
Perhaps do a deal with PatDam on his modified cranks, genuine Bafang cranks are available on AliExpress at a lot less cost, just replace his with the longer standard cranks.
Perhaps do a deal with PatDam on his modified cranks, genuine Bafang cranks are available on AliExpress at a lot less cost, just replace his with the longer standard cranks.
@Waynemarlow I can't for the life of me find any m600 cranks on AliExpress, do you have a link?
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Apologies, just had a quick look myself and they seem no longer on there. I last looked about a couple of months ago when I was looking at ordering the Luna cranks and the standard cranks showed up. The time involved in machining the standard cranks + having the pedal taps which are handed and quite expensive, meant I went with the Luna cranks.
There's a couple of suppliers on AliExpress which seem to have most other bits of the M600, maybe it would be worth dropping a line.
There's a couple of suppliers on AliExpress which seem to have most other bits of the M600, maybe it would be worth dropping a line.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Just googled the cranks and up pops a UK machinary shop, not sure what that is all about.
Bafang Electric Bike Pair of Crank Arms 170mm - G510/M620 Motor E-Bike Bicycle Replacement Part
A replacement crank arm for the Bafang electric bike motor.
www.titan-pro.co.uk
it is these i have modified
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