Levo Gen 2 Warranty extension & Firmware Update for all 2019/20 Levo/Kenevo with 2.1 motors

[#lazy]

Think I’ll leave the update then as a lot are not happy with it , happy with it apart from that !

 

[RCDallas]

Likewise, if you're claiming that assistance drops off at 30% battery, you need some evidence of this at 35%, 30%, 25%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 5% otherwise it's just hearsay

To go along with what Zimmerfrane is saying, if you look at a discharge graph for a 3500mah 18650 lithium battery you will see that voltage decreases at pretty much a linear rate until around the last 20% of capacity where it starts dropping off sharply. Your perception of less power is therefore correct but is not due to software. It is a result of the battery not being able to supply a set voltage throughout the discharge.

Zimms suggestion of looking at the voltage and current will verify what you are "feeling".

 

[beutelfuchs]

Every application could also simulate every other behavior as long as it stays below that curve. Eg. It could increase output during battery discharge or whatever else. So you need to analyze the whole system instead of just looking at specific characteristics of its energy source. This only describes the theoretical upper limit.

 

[Vittorio]

To go along with what Zimmerfrane is saying, if you look at a discharge graph for a 3500mah 18650 lithium battery you will see that voltage decreases at pretty much a linear rate until around the last 20% of capacity where it starts dropping off sharply. Your perception of less power is therefore correct but is not due to software. It is a result of the battery not being able to supply a set voltage throughout the discharge.

I agree to base on evidence (see my measurements about walk mode), but if I'm pushing at about 250W (I'm 65 ) at 40% support and SUDDENLY "feel" a dramatic drop in support and then look at the battery remaining and see 15% (before this discussion, so not influenced), what should I think?
According to the manual "At 15% battery charge remaining, the system will start to reduce the amount of support", I think that the system really reduces the support.
RCDallas, the graphic you show is the discharge curve of the single cell, but the battery pack is managed by a BMS, that prevents the voltage drops at the "knee" level. The minimum battery pack voltage level is definitely above the red line, and the curve is in linear zone.
The support drop is not the result of the cell voltage and intensity current drop, but the effect of the software choices.

I think from 15-1% you get more or less linear drop of motor support, at 1% motor suport is turned off completely and remaining battery is used only to keep TCU alive.

This post suggested there is a linear drop from 15%.
Maybe, since it became increasingly hard to push on the pedals, but this one, yes, could be only a feeling due to my increasing tiredness
At 5% you get another sudden drop, less noticeable than that one at 15%, since the support is already low.

I went below 15% and 5% only another time , and didn't "feel" any drop, but I was not pushing so hard and requesting such a support.
We don't know if the support reduction is in % or absolute.
My previous Yamaha PW-X cut the support (at 10% remaining) in absolute: you wouldn't notice if you were in ECO+ or ECO, but clearly noticed if you were in STD (roughly respectively comparable to 10, 20, 40% of Brose support)
I guess the software cuts the maximum current intensity (thus the power, since the voltage drops only about 10% from fully charged to the minimum allowed by BMS) to preserve the battery, but if the motor draws less than that maximum, the support will not be reduced.
On the other hand, why sould the software cut the support in % if the motor is providing, let's say, 100W?
If you go on flat you'll never notice a drop

 

[Vittorio]

Well perhaps everybody's bike is different, but I have never had to wait longer than five seconds for walk mode to kick in at full speed after lifting the rear wheel while pressing the button. Never absolutely never had to wait 18 seconds or even nine seconds.

New experience.
Place the chain on 42T sprocket, and the magnet just after the speed sensor.
Push walk mode and time a complete turn of the crank.
On my bike 6-9", it depends on previous trials.
So a complete turn of the wheel takes a minimum of 42/32*6" = 7.9"
and if the magnet has just passed the speed sensor (2 passages before engaging full speed) the time is ~16"
Of course if the chain is on 11T and the magnet is just before the speed sensor 11/32*6" = 2"
In both cases add ~1" delay after the second passage of the magnet

While performing these experiences, once the crank rotation was slower, I waited >22"

If anyone would like to contribute, please specify on which sprocket the chain is on, position the magnet just after the speed sensor (you have to see the whole magnet holder), time a rotation of the crank and the time before full speed is engaged.
Only this way we can have comparable experiences.

 

[RCDallas]

I agree to base on evidence (see my measurements about walk mode), but if I'm pushing at about 250W (I'm 65 ) at 40% support and SUDDENLY "feel" a dramatic drop in support and then look at the battery remaining and see 15% (before this discussion, so not influenced), what should I think?
According to the manual "At 15% battery charge remaining, the system will start to reduce the amount of support", I think that the system really reduces the support.
RCDallas, the graphic you show is the discharge curve of the single cell, but the battery pack is managed by a BMS, that prevents the voltage drops at the "knee" level. The minimum battery pack voltage level is definitely above the red line, and the curve is in linear zone.
The support drop is not the result of the cell voltage and intensity current drop, but the effect of the software choices.


This post suggested there is a linear drop from 15%.
Maybe, since it became increasingly hard to push on the pedals, but this one, yes, could be only a feeling due to my increasing tiredness
At 5% you get another sudden drop, less noticeable than that one at 15%, since the support is already low.

I went below 15% and 5% only another time , and didn't "feel" any drop, but I was not pushing so hard and requesting such a support.
We don't know if the support reduction is in % or absolute.
My previous Yamaha PW-X cut the support (at 10% remaining) in absolute: you wouldn't notice if you were in ECO+ or ECO, but clearly noticed if you were in STD (roughly respectively comparable to 10, 20, 40% of Brose support)
I guess the software cuts the maximum current intensity (thus the power, since the voltage drops only about 10% from fully charged to the minimum allowed by BMS) to preserve the battery, but if the motor draws less than that maximum, the support will not be reduced.
On the other hand, why sould the software cut the support in % if the motor is providing, let's say, 100W?
If you go on flat you'll never notice a drop

You are correct in that power is reduced at 15% remaining capacity by the software reducing current to the motor. IMHO This is to both protect the battery as well as extend the remaining range as much as possible. The lower the current draw the higher the voltage,. The higher the voltage the more power at a given current...it is a balancing act to get the most out of the battery without causing appreciable damage.
Also, a BMS cannot increase battery voltage, it can only limit current which goes along with the statement above.

As far as the voltage drop the BMS allows is concerned. In order for a 10s4p battery to produce 504whr it would require the entire capacity of each 3500mah cell to be used at an average voltage of 36volts...10 cells in series produces ~42v when fully charged and ~25v when fully discharged and as you can see by the graph in my last post a typical cell can produce in the range of ~3400-3500mah at the rates we discharge them at.
So 4 parallel packs of 10 cells will equal ~ 14ah @ an average voltage of 36v for a total of 504whr of energy available. Of course, temperature and discharge rates over the entire discharge cycle of the battery will vary the actual available capacity of the battery during that particular cycle. This means that it will require a voltage drop of around 60% (not 10%} before the BMS cuts the battery off in order to utilize the full capacity of the battery.

 

[James_C]

Motor failure last night. Sounds like belt slipping.

This is on the new firmware too.

New motor fitted in 30 mins after drop off time, by Berkshire Cycles! Excellent service! Clutch failure they are saying. New motor seems much quieter .

 

[Roger20]

New motor fitted in 30 mins after drop off time, by Berkshire Cycles! Excellent service! Clutch failure they are saying. New motor seems much quieter .

How many miles had you done/how old?

 

[MrSimmo]

New motor fitted in 30 mins after drop off time, by Berkshire Cycles! Excellent service! Clutch failure they are saying. New motor seems much quieter .

Hi James, Whats the build date of your replacement motor?

 

[James_C]

How many miles had you done/how old?

1400km, 8 months

 

[James_C]

Hi James, Whats the build date of your replacement motor?

E01680-100200703-2-5038

which suggests july 2020 if the decipher method mentioned earlier in the thread is correct. Berkshire had these delivered the same day so they are nice and fresh.

I wouldnt despair if you get an older date on a replacement motor, berkshire said in one of their emtb videos that specialized may well be recycling casings.

 

[MrSimmo]

E01680-100200703-2-5038

which suggests july 2020 if the decipher method mentioned earlier in the thread is correct. Berkshire had these delivered the same day so they are nice and fresh.

I wouldnt despair if you get an older date on a replacement motor, berkshire said in one of their emtb videos that specialized may well be recycling casings.

Thanks James ?

 

[Paceman]

E01680-100200703-2-5038

which suggests july 2020 if the decipher method mentioned earlier in the thread is correct. Berkshire had these delivered the same day so they are nice and fresh.

I wouldnt despair if you get an older date on a replacement motor, berkshire said in one of their emtb videos that specialized may well be recycling casings.

Looks like it’s a 2020 motor, either 3rd July or 7th March 2020. I’m not sure which way around it works with the serial number.

 

[kawamaha]

Looks like it’s a 2020 motor, either 3rd July or 7th March 2020. I’m not sure which way around it works with the serial number.

my motor has 171023. I guess there are only 12 months, so its year-month-day

 

[NIBW]

Really poor service from your lbs, shouldn't really be selling them if they can't fix them

Finally heard back from the shop and as expected it took a week just for them to run a diagnostic they showed a bad motor. Now it’s wait on a claim approval and then wait on a new motor. Really disappointed that the lbs wasted a week on this. I really hope motor failure isn’t as common as it seems. Would hate to go through a month or half a month without a bike.

 

[Paceman]

my motor has 171023. I guess there are only 12 months, so its year-month-day

July 2020 motor then... perfect ?

 

[Jsmithjr732]

July 2020 motor then... perfect ?

Would be nice to hear that the motor date isn’t the deciding factor in old/new parts from @Specialized Rider Care directly and not an LBS.

I have a 2021 Levo Comp with a Dec 2019 motor build. No issues so far but would like confirmation. Haven’t seen them on this thread in a while.

 

[ScratG]

Would be nice to hear that the motor date isn’t the deciding factor in old/new parts from @Specialized Rider Care directly and not an LBS.

I have a 2021 Levo Comp with a Dec 2019 motor build. No issues so far but would like confirmation. Haven’t seen them on this thread in a while.

Yes, would be interesting to hear from which motor date on they speak about imroved motors.

 

[eagerly]

There is no fixed date after which you have an "improved" motor, that's what specialized said...otherwise there would be a replacement campaign. But if I had a 2019 motor on a 2021 model, with no extension of warranty, I would be a little concerned...

 

[NIBW]

Finally new motor on the way. God knows how long it’ll take to ship - hearing so many shipping horror stories. No idea on build date till it arrives.

 

[Jsmithjr732]

There is no fixed date after which you have an "improved" motor, that's what specialized said...otherwise there would be a replacement campaign. But if I had a 2019 motor on a 2021 model, with no extension of warranty, I would be a little concerned...

Where did specialized reference this? I don’t recall reading that. Seems a simple update or reply from Rider Care would clear this up.

 

[jimsydney2000]

Hi All, I love my 2020 Levo comp but as part of this thread I have some concerns.

The motor makes a nasty grinding / scratching noise when in Turbo and usually when I first get on the bike.

If you look closely at the video it stops once I change to trail mode.


Its starting to happen more frequently and occasionally in trail mode.

I have asked a couple of Specialised dealers and they say just bring it in for the firmware upgrade and it will sort it out.

Im concerned it might be a sign of future problems and the motor may require replacing.

Has anyone had a similar experience or know what it might be, or what to suggest at the Specialised LBS.

PS yes unfortunately the right hand side of the frame has a few nasty scratches.

 

[eagerly]

Where did specialized reference this? I don’t recall reading that. Seems a simple update or reply from Rider Care would clear this up.

read here:

Levo Gen 2 - Warranty extension & Firmware Update for all 2019/20 Levo/Kenevo with 2.1 motors

To all owners of 2019/20 Turbo Levo & 2020 Kenevo featuring the Specialized 2.1 motor, here's a letter to you from Mike Sinyard - our founder and CEO. Thanks for all of your support & feedback on this forum. We'll keep a close eye on this thread and do our best to answer any questions.

www.emtbforums.com

 

[MrSimmo]

Finally new motor on the way. God knows how long it’ll take to ship - hearing so many shipping horror stories. No idea on build date till it arrives.

Glad to hear its on the way, awful experience youve had. Not sure where you’re based but may be worth ditching that bike shop for another one if you can.

 

[MrSimmo]

Hi All, I love my 2020 Levo comp but as part of this thread I have some concerns.

The motor makes a nasty grinding / scratching noise when in Turbo and usually when I first get on the bike.

If you look closely at the video it stops once I change to trail mode.


Its starting to happen more frequently and occasionally in trail mode.

I have asked a couple of Specialised dealers and they say just bring it in for the firmware upgrade and it will sort it out.

Im concerned it might be a sign of future problems and the motor may require replacing.

Has anyone had a similar experience or know what it might be, or what to suggest at the Specialised LBS.

PS yes unfortunately the right hand side of the frame has a few nasty scratches.

Ive not had a similar sound but that sounds way louder than my motor in any mode (mine has a build date sticker of April 2019 if that means anything) and the older firmware.

I honestly dont think the firmware update will fix that, sorry to say.

Might be something simple like mud in the motor plastic casing, worth having a look just in case.

 

[jimsydney2000]

Ive not had a similar sound but that sounds way louder than my motor in any mode (mine has a build date sticker of April 2019 if that means anything) and the older firmware.

I honestly dont think the firmware update will fix that, sorry to say.

Might be something simple like mud in the motor plastic casing, worth having a look just in case.

Hi thanks for the support and idea about the mud andI will ask the LBS to take a look , but think it would still make the noise in other modes.
will let you know what I find out.

 

[Jsmithjr732]

read here:

Levo Gen 2 - Warranty extension & Firmware Update for all 2019/20 Levo/Kenevo with 2.1 motors

To all owners of 2019/20 Turbo Levo & 2020 Kenevo featuring the Specialized 2.1 motor, here's a letter to you from Mike Sinyard - our founder and CEO. Thanks for all of your support & feedback on this forum. We'll keep a close eye on this thread and do our best to answer any questions.

www.emtbforums.com

Thanks! Yep, read that and it states that 2021 motors have the updated improvements. My concern is that motor build date is from a time possibly before the parts were available. For example, a 2020 Levo could have a 12/2019 motor build date as could a 2021 (like mine). I/we notified Rider Care of the motor build dates for some early 2021 Levos and they were going to look into this. Have not heard back from them after a few weeks.

Some have theorized that the older date is due to returned motors being re-built. While possible, I bought a new bike and expect all new parts. If it’s when the case and serialization is done, I can understand that. Just want clarification.

I don’t want 2021 Levo owners to be in a limbo state - older motors but only a 2-year warranty. May not be an issue per their announcement, but it would be great for Rider Care to respond back on this point.

 

[jimsydney2000]

Hi thanks for the support and idea about the mud andI will ask the LBS to take a look , but think it would still make the noise in other modes.
will let you know what I find out.

Hi @specialisedridercare

Specialized Rider Care

www.emtbforums.com

Can you please respond with some advice.
Thanks James.

 

[Jeff McD]

Jim Sydney 2000 that's the exact same sound my bike started making a 2020 levo which had the motor replaced under warranty one month ago, but I'm not sure what the problem was. Others have posted videos with a similar sound and eventually the motors failed. It apparently is either due to a deterioration in the belt or the Sprague clutch, I have read on this forum.

 

[FlowDough]

I'm on the new updated motor in my 2020 Kenevo and it's working goid so far. The big difference I see is the push assist. Compared to the 2019 Kenevo, my original 2020 Kenevo motor felt like it had turbo level push assist. It engaged very quickly and practically pulled you up the trail while walking. It was amazing to use in the snow with a 3" rear tire, I could just push the button and the bike practically dragged me up the road and made a trail in the snow.

My new warranty motor feels more like the 2019 Kenevo in push assist mode, except even slower and less powerful. On 2 occasions pushing up an extremely steep terrain it has basically stalled out and flashed the red and blue lights. Oh well, I don't push up terrain that steep very often. I'm guessing they de-tuned to minimize damage from having it being over- stressed and damaged while in the push- assist mode. For me the trade-off is worth it for the increased reliability and warranty extension. Thanks Specialized, I love my Kenevo.