Trek rail rear shock upgrade ideas please

[JMD]

This one I guess..

ZyroFisher

Bit pricey for a experiment, I'll have a try if one appears on eBay a bit cheaper

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I removed the air can on my superdeluxe to check what (if any) tokens were installed. As it turns out there's a blue spacer underneath the bump stop which is clearly used to limit travel. I've no doubt this could be easily cut off and thus give full stroke. Normally i cross reference the parts catalogue in these situations to make sure things like air cans - damper body's etc are indeed the same. I wasn't brave enough to cut it off just in case something collides internally or there isn't enough clearance in the seat stay bridge at bottom out. To replace the spacer is a FULL strip down job, with all the special tools involved, the main piston is quite an intricate thing!

I was in a bit of a rush to go out riding, so didn't measure the spacer, but 5mm seems about right. Who's going to do it first ?

No volume tokens BTW...

 

[damdegraff]

You can limit travel fair more easily than a full rebuild - just do what Ohlins/PUSH/Ext do & put a plastic travel spacer under the bump stop.

You can buy nylon washers with the ride ID/OD on eBay/Amazon in various thicknesses - just pick what you want to run whatever travel you like.

FWIW I run a Push shock on mine. A 65mm stroke has clearance & takes it to ~170mm rear travel.

How's the Push work on your Rail? Any special mounting required? Any pics?

 

[Randomscruff]

Will a RS Super Deluxe 230x57.5 work on a medium Rail 7? I can get this one for 100 USD. Would it be worth it compared to the stock Deluxe Select+ shock?

TIA

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Guys with the coil shock do you feel like the suspension bottoms out to easily due to the shock being so linear? I have the Jade X and everything is great on it but i hit some chunky high speed trails and it almost seemed like it was to low in the travel to often? could just be in my head or how the Ebike rides

Yes! This is what I'm feeling!

 

[Stray cat]

Yes! This is what I'm feeling!

Maybe you need a heavier spring. Have you tried TF Tuned calculator?

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Maybe you need a heavier spring. Have you tried TF Tuned calculator?

It was set up by the local importer/tuner who weighs the same as me so he knows the tracks I ride. I will contact him tomorrow & see if he has any recommendations.

Been for 2 rides on the Jadex & not sure if I want to keep it or get rid of it before it gets dirty. It provides incredible traction climbing on the loosest shaley conditions & when descending sticks to the ground constantly on slightly rough terrain. I'm usually a rear brake dragger yet find virtually no skidding even in our current dry conditions. In those ways it performs awesomely

The cons are that on rooty & rough rocky trails it seems to buck a fair bit and can't seem to keep up with the fork (I'm off the back brake here usually & drive the front). Also riding normally in open mode makes me feel like a dashboard hula dancer toy with the constant pogoing whereas in pedal mode seems a bit harsh.

This is my first ride on a coil & after rereading the reviews & coil vs air explanations I realise that it seems to be doing what it should & maybe that is the characteristics of a coil & perhaps I didn't know it before but I'm an air shock kind of guy?

 

[Doomanic]

on rooty & rough rocky trails it seems to buck a fair bit

I'm not getting this at all. On that terrain it's so much smoother than the air shock it's almost unbelievable.

 

[Doomanic]

Have you tried TF Tuned calculator?

It was set up by the local importer/tuner who weighs the same as me so he knows the tracks I ride.

It would be interesting to see what the TFTuned calculator suggests. It's what I used and it seems spot on to me.

 

[Stray cat]

Taking into account that system is progressive enough, a coil shock in my opinion is always far better than an air shock,in terms of performance.
Better mid support,rear end is glued to the terrain etc. Definitely if you are bottoming out too easily,you need a heavier spring.

 

[Hob Nob]

Taking into account that system is progressive enough, a coil shock in my opinion is always far better than an air shock,in terms of performance.
Better mid support,rear end is glued to the terrain etc. Definitely if you are bottoming out too easily,you need a heavier spring.

That's the difficult part - the rail is not particularly progressive. The linear nature of coils will highlight this, especially if you are going down a spring rate, rather than up. I think for your average rider it probably could do with a progressive spring. For those pushing them harder & wanting a coil, it really needs something with an HBO, which makes a significant difference.

 

[Jamo]

Hob Nob what you going for now? If i’m not mistaken you’ve tried the EXT.... plus the Push 11-6.....so presumably now air of some sort?

I’m also not convinced these bikes have the right leverage for coil, for a number of reasons. Not to say there aren’t some things to like about coil, but also not optimal. Plus the hefty weight and inherent ‘planted’ feel from an e bike means the things I like about my EXT on my yeti are not really necessary on the rail. So air is the way for me.

 

[Doomanic]

How much progression is needed? The Rail is (apparently) 2.9-2.6.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Is there something about rail geometry/rear suspension setup? which makes it more sensitive to spring weights (coil) ?? Reading this it sounds like several people are running a harder spring than would theoretically suit them based on the comments - but riding style, body position and trail types will make that a variable and not an exact between individuals.

Not directly related, only an example, I know I should be running one spring weight lower on the Kenevo, but I'm sticking with it still just to force me to improve my riding style. Even slightly wrong and you'll almost be bucked over any drops or jumps with the slightest lip. Rock gardens/parallel root runs once you hit about 5 "objects" with similar spacing and the suspension starts oscillating, if your body position is wrong you know about it.

Only ridden one Rail. A Stock 7.... Thought it was nice .. other than the brakes being the wrong way round so almost died a few times.

 

[Doomanic]

other than the brakes being the right way round so almost died a few times.

FTFY, Frenchie.

 

[Doomanic]

Seriously, why do you lot run the brakes that way round? Are your motorcycles cack-handed too?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Seriously, why do you lot run the brakes that way round? Are your motorcycles cack-handed too?

Eeets is too keep you on your toooes ! ?! or head ...

Nope Motorcycles are normal .. I almost swapped mine around (bike), but thought if anyone else rode it , it would cause an accident ....

Having come from motorcycles, it's a hard transition. Makes sense on a motorcycle as you can't really Clutch and throttle with the same hand.

Had a lot of problems at the start. When you're thinking consciously, it's fine. When you start to relax and just let things happen, all sh1t breaks loose .. literally ..

Have adapted now as I guess everyone does. There was a long and arduous thread about it .. I think historically people braked with just the rear because in the early days of bicycles, Rob would know, he was around then ... the thought was if you used the front brake you would skid or fly off - maybe that was a wooden wheel/geometry thing ... so you used the back brake .. but in the UK you signalled with your right hand, so you needed the back brake to be on the left ..

So, it's actually us who have it on the correct side, you are wrong and motorcycles are an unfortunate anomaly which came from the throttle being on the right hand because young men had developed much better repetitive hand control with their right hands on the whole.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

I've had a few rides now & am pretty impressed with the way the rear wheel stays on the ground on slightly rough & loamy trails. I got through one trail I'd been putting off for a while with a high level of confidence. It was steep & loamy though not a rock/root fest.
I don't notice the bobbing now & ride with it fully open so I guess it was just a matter of getting used to it. I haven't been down a gnarly rocky track since the first few rides though so will see how it goes.
Another plus is I think it will extend the life of my rear tyre ?

 

[Doomanic]

@Doug Stampfer it would be useful if you could compare what your importer spec'd compared to the TFTuned spring calculator.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

The TF tuned calculator seems to recommend a 480-514 - I'm 86kgs & they say to add another 5kgs for ebike weight (which I can't see how that matters as thats unsprung weight but they're the experts) so 93kgs
I'm running a 600.

 

[Jamo]

Other way round...thats the sprung weight

 

[Doomanic]

I'm a similar weight to you and I'm running a 550.

I got slightly different results to you though, did you get the stroke and travel correct? 57.5mm and 150mm.

 

[Bomble]

I’m running 550 spring, similar weight to above with 160 mm travel. I bought my shock from TF and it’s perfect.

 

[coregrind]

View attachment 50544

@Doug Stampfer the sag option choice is a considering factor of the equation as well.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Hi all. Yes sorry Doom I got 514 for 28% & 481 for 30%
I don't think I'd be changing anything now. I realise the coil was OK it was just I was so used to a squatting basic shock that the change was very different & takes a bit of getting used to.
I thought unsprung weight was the weight below the suspension therefore not relevant to the suspension setting, not the weight sitting on the suspension however just did a google & you're correct, they've changed it on me without telling me!

 

[Jamo]

Yeah any weight that moves the ‘spring’ is the sprung weight, any weight that doesn’t is unsprung - pretty much only the wheels on a bike are unsprung.

i think the way the e bike moves the spring with all it’s additional weight must be a factor to be considered, it’s quite a ‘dynamic’ movement.

doomanic - the trek having a leverage ratio of 2.9 - 2.6 is interesting. By my sums thats around 10%, not that much. Trek never really push the boat on anything (which I actually get). Companies like Cascade Components are making links aiming for 25- 30% which i think will be more like it in terms of playing as nicely as possible with coil shocks.

obviously none of this actually matters in the real world as long as you’re loving what you have. Though i suppose might help explain some of the characteristics of different shocks

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Yes agreed. The further down the rabbit hole I travel & the more I'm learning (or relearning) about suspension & leverage ratios the more things become clearer. I kind of jumped on the band wagon getting a coil because it seemed the best option now I'm not so sure it was for the Rail. Also I think the adjustability of the air shock would maybe have been a better proposition for me.
Getting a X2 over here however is another 25% more than the JadeX & there's not many alternatives so I will get over my first world problems & enjoy the benefits of it. Interesting discussion though.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I wanted to fit a Super Deluxe, so I made this yoke to lenghten 205 trunnion to 230. Works good.

View attachment 43157

View attachment 43158

I've shamelessly nicked this idea and come up with a MK2 version that bolts straight onto the lower trunnion mount....

 

[Doomanic]

God, I miss the days that I had access to CNC lathes and mills.

I once designed and machined a progressive linkage for my Proflex 856, upping the travel to 125mm to match my RST Hi 5 dual crown forks.

 

[Mr Adam]

I've shamelessly nicked this idea and come up with a MK2 version that bolts straight onto the lower trunnion mount.... View attachment 51411

Interested in selling one of theses yoke?