Fuel EXe Trek Fuel EXe Megathread!

[volts]

Some interesting follow-ups....Since my GX AXS appeared straight enough(although missing a large chunk of plastic) I did some experimenting to see if it could be salvaged.

• Cages are not interchangeable between cable-actuated and AXS GX derailleurs. I had a spare/donor cable-actuated GX, so I figured I'd try- but no dice.
• Since the GX AXS appeared straight, I tried it on another bike. First thing I noticed was that, on my Propain Tyee, it required nowhere near as much B-tension screw as it did on my Fuel. And behold, it works acceptably well- with a shimano cassette & chain even. I definitely could not get it to work on my Fuel. I don't really understand why it works on one bike, but not another- Fanatik checked & straightened my hanger so I don't think that's it. Maybe a kink in the old chain....Just happy it's not in the garbage.

I have noticed that some hangers have the stop part of the hanger is very different places than others. For example I had a yeti sb150 and it had such a weird hanger compared to any other bike I have owned, and b tension was vastly different.
Maybe it's something like that?

 

[DancingWithMyself]

Kaz on PB rode the new SRAM tranny on his EX for quite a while. I suspect that SRAM would not disqualify Trek from its potential customer list as well.

Agree with those points and not searching for something to criticize. Would just like to hear trek address it and explain why it’s not an issue.

 

[Swingset]

In my line of work the customer is privy to almost all of our work product. They approve/critique our design throughout the process and we have to show that it works with the requirements they impose upon us. When the product is delivered we ship them the complete hardware, traceability, and analysis package along with it. The paper side cost far exceeds the cost of the product. Its a brutal way to do business.

On the consumer side the bike company just asks you to walk in the door, make a value judgement and you either buy it or don't. I would never buy a Pole product for these reasons. Toyota and Honda get to charge more for their perceived reputations.

I am not huge fan of the ABP system but Trek certainly has used it forever and that joint is well known. The beauty of the the new SRAM stuff is that it relies on the 12mm axle in double shear. It really distributes the loads better.

Anyway, food for thought.

 

[volts]

In my line of work the customer is privy to almost all of our work product. They approve/critique our design throughout the process and we have to show that it works with the requirements they impose upon us. When the product is delivered we ship them the complete hardware, traceability, and analysis package along with it. The paper side cost far exceeds the cost of the product. Its a brutal way to do business.

On the consumer side the bike company just asks you to walk in the door, make a value judgement and you either buy it or don't. I would never buy a Pole product for these reasons. Toyota and Honda get to charge more for their perceived reputations.

I am not huge fan of the ABP system but Trek certainly has used it forever and that joint is well known. The beauty of the the new SRAM stuff is that it relies on the 12mm axle in double shear. It really distributes the loads better.

Anyway, food for thought.

I'm not totally convinced it's a good idea to have the derailleur shear the carbon.
I watched the promo videos and wasn't really convinced and this guy pretty much sums up my hesitation with the system.

 

[Mteam]

I'm not totally convinced it's a good idea to have the derailleur shear the carbon.
I watched the promo videos and wasn't really convinced and this guy pretty much sums up my hesitation with the system.

It's not shearing the carbon unless the axle isn't in place, with the axle in place, the axle takes the loads.

It does pass the loads down the chain/seatstays and I guess there's a chance these could get damaged ,but bikes are designed to take some pretty large forces from the back wheel, eg someone landing whips a bit off center.

It's too pricey for me right now, and I'd like to give it a few years just in case frames are not actually strong enough , but my gut feel is that it'll be ok

 

[Canyon Shawn]

I'm not totally convinced it's a good idea to have the derailleur shear the carbon.
I watched the promo videos and wasn't really convinced and this guy pretty much sums up my hesitation with the system.

So, what you’re saying is that this guys knows better than SRAM’s engineers. Oh, I’m rolling!

 

[volts]

It's not shearing the carbon unless the axle isn't in place, with the axle in place, the axle takes the loads.

It does pass the loads down the chain/seatstays and I guess there's a chance these could get damaged ,but bikes are designed to take some pretty large forces from the back wheel, eg someone landing whips a bit off center.

It's too pricey for me right now, and I'd like to give it a few years just in case frames are not actually strong enough , but my gut feel is that it'll be ok

It's not those kinds of loads that will shear. Those will pass to the stays. But if the derailleur rotates upwards like in the case you get a stick in the wheel something have to give and it is designed to rotate up, but now there is a shearing shim clamped to the frame with 35nm.

 

[Zimmerframe]

So, what you’re saying is that this guys knows better than SRAM’s engineers. Oh, I’m rolling!

There's a thread already discussing this so I won't say much as it's then running in parallel and off topic for this thread, but ..

It's a compromise. The derailleur is far more robust, which is fantastic and will significantly reduce a lot of derailleur failure moments. There's lots of other advantages too. The problem is there will still be those freak occurrences we have. It's one of those which means there will be some enormous amount of energy levered through the axle mount which has to go somewhere. The axle isn't a magic springy energy conversion device. Potentially down the line we'll see it as a trade off we're happy to accept (in most cases) ..

Engineers can only do so much .. if hangers were perfect and derailleurs were engineered for every possible impact scenario, you'd never have a broken derailleur ! We do, so they're not - it's the same here.

Original thread :

SRAM's new 2023 Drivetrain allows full power shifts

🔥 2023 SRAM Eagle Key Features: 1️⃣ Robustness & Reliability - The toughest drivetrain ever 2️⃣ Shifting Under Load - The harder you pedal, the better it shifts 3️⃣ Ease of Use - Simplified maintenance, fitting, and operation

www.emtbforums.com

and my silly article, which doesn't really cover much but adds a few links at the start :

Not sure the new SRAM Eagle Transmission is for you - What other options are there ?

SRAM recently released the New Eagle Transmission system. Rumoured and talked about for 4 years and shown in Patents for 6 months now, ridden extensively by Nino Schurter last season, it's finally released into the real world. Originally...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Swingset]

This one is more fun. Its mind boggling how much punishment the 'old' stuff can take.

 

[Mteam]

It's not those kinds of loads that will shear. Those will pass to the stays. But if the derailleur rotates upwards like in the case you get a stick in the wheel something have to give and it is designed to rotate up, but now there is a shearing shim clamped to the frame with 35nm.

Yes it could rotate,but that the same risk as you have now with the udh. There's a few trek rails that have damaged the seat stay when the derailleur rotated round and the udh didn't break away. Not seen any fuel exe suffer from this yet....

 

[Canyon Shawn]

I'm not totally convinced it's a good idea to have the derailleur shear the carbon.
I watched the promo videos and wasn't really convinced and this guy pretty much sums up my hesitation with the system.

His argument about alignment is bogus. Number one if your frame is out of alignment, you would know that ahead of time. And, number two, even if it is slightly out of alignment once you put the axle through everything and tighten it up, the derailer will become aligned with the cassette. And, it would take an Infiniti of wheel removals for that washer to do any damage to the carbon. This clown is just trying to get YouTube hits.

 

[volts]

Yes it could rotate,but that the same risk as you have now with the udh. There's a few trek rails that have damaged the seat stay when the derailleur rotated round and the udh didn't break away. Not seen any fuel exe suffer from this yet....

it's supposed to rotate by design, but I guess it doesn't get stopped correctly on some models.
I think it is meant to do that in those cases where you get too close to a rock, it wouldn't help much in the situations with a stick stuck in there.

This one is more fun. Its mind boggling how much punishment the 'old' stuff can take.

That one certainly have some entertainment value and I think they do a good job, but I suspect it is these guys PT was referencing in regards to the shearing of the frame at the axle, in his video.

 

[Emailsucks98]

I have noticed that some hangers have the stop part of the hanger is very different places than others. For example I had a yeti sb150 and it had such a weird hanger compared to any other bike I have owned, and b tension was vastly different.
Maybe it's something like that?

That was my first thought- and that the more you screw in the B-tension, maybe it exaggerates any alignment issues.
But then I wondered, shouldn't the B-tension screw just adjust to get the derailleur in the same location on every bike (relative to the cassette) regardless of the hanger? I don't know!

If I could go back a week, I would have tried replacing the hanger & chain before rushing into replacing the derailleur ($$$). It may just have been a damaged chain. But I'm happy enough with cable-actuated.

 

[playboater15]

Well I've loved the bike so much, that I've ridden about 700km in 3 months and the chain is knackered. I've replaced with a KMC E12, but now looks like the chainring is also worn out. Please can someone point me in the direction of a suitable steel chainring to replace it with? I'm hoping the cassette isn't toast as well, as I've been using a much bigger range of gears than on old acoustic bike, but if needs must, i guess that'll need foing as well.. Thanks!

 

[Swingset]

I am not finding work to be of much interest today.....

Started off as a 9.7 in November. Plan was to ride it stock for a while to do incremental upgrades as needed. Plan lasted about five minutes. Current build.

Fox Factory 38 fork at 160mm with one token.
Fox Factory Float X at 162.5 mm
Industry Nine 305 wheels
One Up 210mm dropper with Wolf Tooth LT lever
PNW bars and stem
Ergon Fat grips
Ergon seat
PNW plastic pedals

Bont tires are not bad. Shimano brakes worky for me. No need for me switch drivetrains- like my bikes electric and my shifting mechanical.

 

[DancingWithMyself]

So, what you’re saying is that this guys knows better than SRAM’s engineers. Oh, I’m rolling!

I agree with the comment as a general sentiment about armchair engineers, but the bike industry has cranked A LOT of products that turned out to be bad ideas. For example, that used to be the sole activity of crank brothers.

Think it’s fair to be skeptical. Would you run out and buy the first iteration of wireless brakes just because they were designed by bike company engineers?

 

[Canyon Shawn]

I agree with the comment as a general sentiment about armchair engineers, but the bike industry has cranked A LOT of products that turned out to be bad ideas.

But, has SRAM ever done that?

 

[Emailsucks98]

I agree with the comment as a general sentiment about armchair engineers, but the bike industry has cranked A LOT of products that turned out to be bad ideas. For example, that used to be the sole activity of crank brothers.

Think it’s fair to be skeptical. Would you run out and buy the first iteration of wireless brakes just because they were designed by bike company engineers?

I agree this conversation is more interesting than work

And we have SRAM to thank for the Reverb seatpost. So we know they are capable of designing & selling disposable garbage.

The youtube engineer dude lost me when he started talking about derailer hangers being necessary to keep the derailleur aligned with the frame. That's nonsense- derailleur needs to be aligned with the axle & cassette, which is the benefit SRAM's touting. Makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense (to me) is the cost. I do hope it trickles down to the GX price point, even if it's only the cassette, chain and DM standard.

 

[DancingWithMyself]

In my line of work the customer is privy to almost all of our work product. They approve/critique our design throughout the process and we have to show that it works with the requirements they impose upon us. When the product is delivered we ship them the complete hardware, traceability, and analysis package along with it. The paper side cost far exceeds the cost of the product. Its a brutal way to do business.

On the consumer side the bike company just asks you to walk in the door, make a value judgement and you either buy it or don't. I would never buy a Pole product for these reasons. Toyota and Honda get to charge more for their perceived reputations.

I am not huge fan of the ABP system but Trek certainly has used it forever and that joint is well known. The beauty of the the new SRAM stuff is that it relies on the 12mm axle in double shear. It really distributes the loads better.

Anyway, food for thought.

Would you read anything into the fact Trek specs a lower than normal torque value for the UDH (or at least that’s my recollection for the manual)? I’m already concerned about the longevity of all of the bearings b/c they are itty, bitty compared to the pivot bearing on other bikes I’ve owned.

And there is no way I’m spending this amount of money on shifting vs suspension and brakes, but I think it’s interesting nonetheless.

 

[DancingWithMyself]

But, has SRAM ever done that?

I’m sure it’s already been said below, but REVERB!

 

[DancingWithMyself]

And their brake line was a disaster for years. And even now, it’s only the Code RSC’s that are really praised.

But I’m not a SRAM hater. Have Code RSC’s and combo of XO1 and GX on all three of my bikes.

And I think it’s going to most likely be fine as a general matter. Mostly curious about ABP and similar designs.

 

[Swingset]

Would you read anything into the fact Trek specs a lower than normal torque value for the UDH (or at least that’s my recollection for the manual)? I’m already concerned about the longevity of all of the bearings b/c they are itty, bitty compared to the pivot bearing on other bikes I’ve owned.

And there is no way I’m spending this amount of money on shifting vs suspension and brakes, but I think it’s interesting nonetheless.

Good thinking. I would think the main failure mode in the axle bearings is Brinelling. There is so little rotation there that the balls tend to stay in the same location and wear a pit into the race. All APB bikes now have two expensive structures (chain stays and seat stays) co-located with the wheel and mech. You are asking a ton to fit into a small place. A crash may result in multiple, expensive, structural failures. A Horst link puts the structural pivot separate and can be designed with some beef. Way prefer that but sometimes the patent office tells us what we are allowed to ride.

Love this discussion.

 

[volts]

I agree this conversation is more interesting than work

And we have SRAM to thank for the Reverb seatpost. So we know they are capable of designing & selling disposable garbage.

The youtube engineer dude lost me when he started talking about derailer hangers being necessary to keep the derailleur aligned with the frame. That's nonsense- derailleur needs to be aligned with the axle & cassette, which is the benefit SRAM's touting. Makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense (to me) is the cost. I do hope it trickles down to the GX price point, even if it's only the cassette, chain and DM standard.

To be fair, that was not what he said.
He said that QC on bikes are terrible and with hangers you at least have a chance to fix that. He also later on on the second video that came shortly after admitted that his assumption of the frame being sandwitched by the derailleur was actually wrong.
I don't know if what he say is correct or not, but I think it's always healthy to have some scepticism when the bike industry comes along with a new wonderful product that they say will be much better, when sram time and time again have made a bunch of mistakes, which is actually natural and common when innovating.


The rest is not an answer to you but just my general thoughts on this discussion.
I'd like wireless shifting, if made right.
I'd get axs right away if they just fixed the weak clutch, but I am hesitant to pay as much as a good frame cost for a drivetrain of which big parts of it can be seen as a consumable, when I am not even really completely sure all the ideas are sound and won't destroy the frame.

I don't think srams engineers are stupid, but I think they and I do not always have the same idea of what is important. For me, price to performance ratio holds some importance, as does being sure my frame is rideable for as long a time as possible.

If someone want to blindly trust that sram made no mistakes, then great. I will watch from the sideline and see where this is heading in the meantime. They can laugh all they want at my scepticism, I have no problem with that.

We live in a wonderful time where bike tech just keeps getting better and there is more and more choice. Also the choice of not following the latest trends blindly.

 

[Emailsucks98]

To be fair, that was not what he said.
He said that QC on bikes are terrible and with hangers you at least have a chance to fix that. He also later on on the second video that came shortly after admitted that his assumption of the frame being sandwitched by the derailleur was actually wrong.

Yeah, I can't say I watched the whole thing, I think we agree.
The thing is, the frame/drop-out could be out of alignment, but mounting the derailleur off the axle means it will be aligned with the cassette. So no benefit to having a hanger now, far as alignment goes.

Much like my posts here, too many words from him diluted any logical message

I'd wager $5 that the least expensive replacement piece for an XO transmission derailleur will probably exceed the cost of a brand new GX cable-actuated derailleur

 

[Canyon Shawn]

This is the new SRAM transmission on an EXe.

NSMB.com - SRAM Eagle T-Type drivetrain and Code Stealth Brakes

Imagine this derailleur: no hanger / no adjustment screws / attaches to your rear axle / is strong enough to stand on without being damaged / that shifts better under higher loads...

nsmb.com

 

[MikeP]

It's not those kinds of loads that will shear. Those will pass to the stays. But if the derailleur rotates upwards like in the case you get a stick in the wheel something have to give and it is designed to rotate up, but now there is a shearing shim clamped to the frame with 35nm.

Not disagreeing with your point, but I would note that a hanger doesn't protect your bike from the stick-in-wheel scenario you describe

This is the seat stay of my Norco Sight. I "repaired" it but it shifts like crap now, I really must bite the bullet and buy a replacement.

 

[macbeth89]

Hi everyone,
i urgently need the spider for the tq motor.
is there anyone in europe willing to sell their spider?
I pay for the Spider + for a new ethirteen direct mount chainring.

 

[volts]

cant you just order from e13 ?

E*Thirteen

Our new direct mount e*spec chainrings use our new M3 narrow-wide tooth profile, which reduces weight without sacrificing chain-retention. In making our SL and UL chainrings lighter and more beautiful than their predecessors, we adapted a similar design to work with Bosch, Brose, Fazua and...

ethirteen.eu

and the lockring is here

TQ HPR Lock Ring Circlip Set

This circlip set from TQ is needed to mount a chainring on your TQ drive. To do this, please use a socket spanner for bottom brackets with 20…

www.ebike24.com

Or maybe I misunderstand what you need.

 

[macbeth89]

cant you just order from e13 ?

E*Thirteen

Our new direct mount e*spec chainrings use our new M3 narrow-wide tooth profile, which reduces weight without sacrificing chain-retention. In making our SL and UL chainrings lighter and more beautiful than their predecessors, we adapted a similar design to work with Bosch, Brose, Fazua and...

ethirteen.eu

I need the spider to be able to run the new TT Groupset, the chain doesn‘t work with the e13 chainring.
maybe there is someone who doesn't need the spider but would like a new chainring + a few euros extra.
so win win.

 

[volts]

I need the spider to be able to run the new TT Groupset, the chain doesn‘t work with the e13 chainring.
maybe there is someone who doesn't need the spider but would like a new chainring + a few euros extra.
so win win.

ahh ok now I understand.