Pole Voima swing arm CRACKED

[Mikerb]

...sorry..overlapped with some of @Zimmerframe comments.

 

[Tooks]

I completely agree that an ideal solution would involve a seamless process like the one described. We will strive to make this work within our current system, but for now, we need some guarantee that we'll receive the damaged items back.

I know you want the part back for evaluation, I get that, but the first priority must be looking after the customer who has suffered a failure?

I’d be more inclined to send the part back once I’ve had the replacement, especially if you send a returns postage label to affix to the box you sent the replacment
Item out in, make it easy for the customer, and make it so they’re not out of pocket even temporarily?

I love your product by the way, and I love dealing with manufacturers direct. You deserve every success.

 

[Paul Mac]

View attachment 109486

Hello everyone! It appears that the swingarm failure occurred at the pit designed for lower link clearance. Following the material failure, the bonding separates as the interface begins to bear most of the load. In some instances, even the link bonding may fail due to the uneven distribution of the swingarm load.

We've updated the swingarms on our Vikkelä bikes but haven't addressed this specific area yet. Receiving the broken parts is crucial for identifying the issue's root cause. The 7075-T6 production method sometimes results in quality inconsistencies, which could be the source of the problem.

As a high-end manufacturer, we're committed to providing reliable, top-quality products and ensuring customer satisfaction. Our 5-year warranty reflects this commitment and our goal to become a trusted name in the high-end mountain bike industry.

Our frames undergo rigorous testing, and while we didn't encounter this issue during testing, we recognize that our best-selling Voima model may still offer valuable learning experiences.

We're considering adopting an approach similar to Bosch's system to improve the warranty process. Customers purchase a replacement part, and if the warranty claim is approved after inspection, they receive a refund. This method could expedite the process.

We would appreciate your input on this potential solution, and your trust and satisfaction are paramount to us. Together, we can ensure the continued delivery of exceptional products and customer experiences.

Tell me one other bike manufacturer that would respond to a bike forum in this manner?
Top man Leo

 

[Paris Doo]

Specialized had sent me an Enduro S Works frame in a week (as a replacement of a basic Comp model) and Pole wants clients to pay for the failed parts and then have the cost refunded?

This is for sure the worst warranty approach I have ever heard!

 

[leo_kokkonen]

Maybe the ultimate answer here for Pole is to appoint at the very least an authorised warranty agent in the UK and US etc to avoid delays in dealing with warranty claims. The process would be for the rider to deal with the local warranty agent who would have the authority to authorise or reject the claim and then act as the middle man to recieve replacement parts as required.........and send the broken part to Pole.

In response to your suggestion, while appointing an authorized warranty agent in countries like the UK and US could potentially streamline the warranty process, there are a few factors to consider. As a make-to-order company, we don't maintain local warehousing, which could affect the practicality of having a local dealer or warranty agent. However, we do have resources in the UK and reliable logistics partners who ensure fast delivery when required.

We understand that some warranty claims might involve accident damage rather than structural failure. That's why we already handle warranty claims in Finland using photos and videos, along with a written statement describing the circumstances of the damage. Our global warranty service is responsive, with replies typically within one day and cases resolved in just a few days.

We strive to create a fair and efficient process for both parties involved, and we are constantly working towards improving our customer service and relations. While the cost of a swingarm may be minimal for us, the main challenge is retrieving the failed parts for inspection. We appreciate your input and will continue to explore ways to enhance our warranty claims process.

 

[leo_kokkonen]

Specialized had sent me an Enduro S Works frame in a week (as a replacement of a basic Comp model) and Pole wants clients to pay for the failed parts and then have the cost refunded?

This is for sure the worst warranty approach I have ever heard!

I'm glad to hear that Specialized was able to resolve your issue promptly and to your satisfaction. However, it's essential to consider the differences between the two companies. Specialized is a large-scale enterprise, while Pole is a smaller company with a team of fewer than 30 employees. It may not be reasonable to expect the same warranty approach from both companies, given their differing resources and business models.

At Pole, we pride ourselves on our precision-made, in-house, make-to-order products, as opposed to mass-produced items. This unique approach allows us to provide high-quality, customizable bikes to our customers. While we may not handle warranty claims in the same way as larger companies like Specialized, we remain committed to delivering excellent customer service and continuously improving our warranty process to better serve our valued clients.

 

[leo_kokkonen]

I'd like to emphasize that at Pole, we don't encounter many warranty cases, as our primary focus is on delivering exceptional quality and customer satisfaction. Our warranty team mainly handles routine customer service inquiries, ensuring that we cater to our clients' needs efficiently and effectively.

We are dedicated to maintaining high standards by conducting rigorous testing and quality control measures, which contribute to our low warranty claim rate. Although we are aware that occasional material issues can arise, our commitment to continuous improvement helps minimize such occurrences.

We appreciate your understanding and your engagement in this conversation. We always welcome feedback and will continue to strive for excellence in serving our customers. If you have any further questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you for your support!

 

[Plummet]

View attachment 109486

Hello everyone! It appears that the swingarm failure occurred at the pit designed for lower link clearance. Following the material failure, the bonding separates as the interface begins to bear most of the load. In some instances, even the link bonding may fail due to the uneven distribution of the swingarm load.

We've updated the swingarms on our Vikkelä bikes but haven't addressed this specific area yet. Receiving the broken parts is crucial for identifying the issue's root cause. The 7075-T6 production method sometimes results in quality inconsistencies, which could be the source of the problem.

As a high-end manufacturer, we're committed to providing reliable, top-quality products and ensuring customer satisfaction. Our 5-year warranty reflects this commitment and our goal to become a trusted name in the high-end mountain bike industry.

Our frames undergo rigorous testing, and while we didn't encounter this issue during testing, we recognize that our best-selling Voima model may still offer valuable learning experiences.

We're considering adopting an approach similar to Bosch's system to improve the warranty process. Customers purchase a replacement part, and if the warranty claim is approved after inspection, they receive a refund. This method could expedite the process.

We would appreciate your input on this potential solution, and your trust and satisfaction are paramount to us. Together, we can ensure the continued delivery of exceptional products and customer experiences.

How about this for an idea for warrantee claimed components.

Take a credit card number. But do not charge for the parts at shipment. Dispatch new parts immediately.

Review the failed components when they are returned. If it is deemed that the parts are faulty then do not charge the credit it card. If the warrantee claim is rejected, then charge the credit card.

This I'd similar to what a car rental company does or a hotel when takings booking.

 

[Karve]

The % of Voima and Vikkelä with issues seems to have been tiny since launch. Way lower than other brands from what I can see. This has done lots to rebuild the trust in Poles QC and production methods in the post “Lauri” era. Pole should take a lot of credit for that. The bike is amazing. I love mine.

I understand why “the return to base warranty” makes sense for a small company.... I’ve had it on most recent bikes ive owned, Trek, Lappiere, YT etc. Some will sort you out, without physically seeing the frame, but that’s not the norm.

However, @leo, as you must maintain Poles upward reputational trajectory, a really empathetic approach to warranty, is needed. I cannot underestimate how important this is, for Pole's brand, with its history. Frame issues are annoying but if the warranty process then creates extended time off the bike, customers get really annoyed. This can then spill onto social media. Bad for customers, bad for your brand.

Plummets idea is a really good one... take the risk on the warranty side, cross ship, and get people back up and running ASAP. In return they will continue to be strong Pole advocates... which is what has made the Voima such a success. It’s 10* more powerful for your brand than anything you spend on the race team or the marketing side.

It will be a cost on your balance sheet, but as failure rates are so low, not a massive one. Think of it as brand investment.

 

[Plummet]

I'm interested to understand if the newly designed swing arm is stronger than this one???

 

[slickrock]

How about this for an idea for warrantee claimed components.

Take a credit card number. But do not charge for the parts at shipment. Dispatch new parts immediately.

Review the failed components when they are returned. If it is deemed that the parts are faulty then do not charge the credit it card. If the warrantee claim is rejected, then charge the credit card.

This I'd similar to what a car rental company does or a hotel when takings booking.

Agreed. Apple does this all the time with warranty repair issues on their products: They take card number - place a reserve hold (last for 30 days), ship out replacement; provide return shipping label to reduce friction in shipping back; Once returned item is inspected and deemed a warranty repair, release credit card hold amount (or convert hold to charge if these is clear evidence of warranty violation).

To Leo: while it's good faith that you really want to get to the bottom of a potential defect and ship out a replacement absent of this potential flaw, it's far better to get existing stock out to customers as as possible since its still covered under warranty and then follow up with a second replacement only if the potential defect is recall-worthy (i.e. likely to break again).

 

[slickrock]

I'm interested to understand if the newly designed swing arm is stronger than this one???

Based on Leo's take, it seems he wants to make sure that any potential "over-milling" in the joint area be assessed and immediately changed in the CNC programming for all units produced going forward.

 

[Durrti]

UPDATE!!
Pole has shipped new parts my way!
Parts include:

• Both swingarms and links for both sides preassembled
• All bolts, bolt covers, caps/extractors
• New rear mech hanger
• New rear axle

I’m incredibly thankful for the opportunity to connect with @leo_kokkonen through these forums.
I was initially very concerned by the issue and had some reservations about my Voima. However after seeing the candid responses and honesty, I feel like the integrity of Pole is bar none. I truly think the issue of shipping parts immediately may have been due to the lack of issues the Voima has experienced.
I can honestly say that I love this bike! Still very happy that I bought a Pole, and looking forward to getting on the trails ASAP.
Thanks to all for the posts!
And a big shout out to @Rob Rides EMTB for giving us this community to connect

 

[Plummet]

UPDATE!!
Pole has shipped new parts my way!
Parts include:

• Both swingarms and links for both sides preassembled
• All bolts, bolt covers, caps/extractors
• New rear mech hanger
• New rear axle

I’m incredibly thankful for the opportunity to connect with @leo_kokkonen through these forums.
I was initially very concerned by the issue and had some reservations about my Voima. However after seeing the candid responses and honesty, I feel like the integrity of Pole is bar none. I truly think the issue of shipping parts immediately may have been due to the lack of issues the Voima has experienced.
I can honestly say that I love this bike! Still very happy that I bought a Pole, and looking forward to getting on the trails ASAP.
Thanks to all for the posts!
And a big shout out to @Rob Rides EMTB for giving us this community to connect

Result!

 

[ilostmypassword]

Glued together won't ever end well.

 

[Plummet]

Glued together won't ever end well.

Why? Most carbon framed are 2 piece glued together.......

 

[Zimmerframe]

Why? Most carbon framed are 2 piece glued together.......

Not to mention the whole thing is glued together (epoxy).

Poor Glue .. people are so unkind to it

What about Ply wood .. OSB. Glue lam structures. Atlas-I (good example of glued wood from quite a long time ago)

ATLAS-I

This pseudo-steampunk weapons facility is the world's largest wood and glue structure, and packs quite a wallop.

www.atlasobscura.com

We shouldn't also forget probably one of the most common bonded structures which incur enormous daily stress and temperature fluctuations - Aeroplanes.

and your own body ...

 

[irie]

Glued together won't ever end well.

Depends on what structure is being glued together, the glue used, and the size and direction of loads placed upon it.

 

[jbrown15]

Glued together won't ever end well.

Do you fly on commercial airplanes often?.....lol

 

[ilostmypassword]

Do you fly on commercial airplanes often?.....lol

A plane is not a bike

 

[jbrown15]

A plane is not a bike

You’re right, a plane has way more stress load and has half the wing glued together.

So what makes you think glue won’t work on Poles bikes when it’s the same product?

Atherton is another bike brand that does something very similar. Bonding bike parts together using glue is not that unusual.

 

[Plummet]

You’re right, a plane has way more stress load and has half the wing glued together.

So what makes you think glue won’t work on Poles bikes when it’s the same product?

Atherton is another bike brand that does something very similar. Bonding bike parts together using glue is not that unusual.

Most carbon bikes are also 2 piece then sandwedged together aswell.

Lets faces it though. machining a solid billit of 7075-T6 is a pretty damn ad hoc method. It is gratuatously expensive and wasteful and not ideal for frame manufacture. But it is cool AF and obviously they have a pretty decent 5 axis CNC with a decent bed size. So if you can, why not?

It means they can manufacture inhouse rather than subbing out. It also means they have little tooling cost by comparison. But it is most certainly not a bulk production method.

For the record I am a CNC slut and love a good multi-axis CNC piece of kit. If I purchase the Pole it will be partly for CNC porn form over fuction reasons than this is the best method of mtb manufacture. It clearly is not the best method.

But it is what it is. If you don't like it, don't buy.

 

[KevinAndrews]

Specialized had sent me an Enduro S Works frame in a week (as a replacement of a basic Comp model) and Pole wants clients to pay for the failed parts and then have the cost refunded?

This is for sure the worst warranty approach I have ever heard!

Having owned a number of Specialized bikes including Kenevo, Kenevo SL, Levo, Enduro with only the highest respect and fondness for their products, their warranty process must be very different in Australia. In our market, a warranty frame is handled as any other order and you will likely wait 8 to 10 weeks for a new frame if not longer. You also won’t be supplied with the colour that you chose and paid for, rather a standard black matte frame with white decals which is unacceptable as I’m sure you would agree. Specialized will also require a full inspection of the existing frame before any warranty is honoured. I can’t see how that is in any way superior to what Pole are offering?

 

[Paris Doo]

Having owned a number of Specialized bikes including Kenevo, Kenevo SL, Levo, Enduro with only the highest respect and fondness for their products, their warranty process must be very different in Australia. In our market, a warranty frame is handled as any other order and you will likely wait 8 to 10 weeks for a new frame if not longer. You also won’t be supplied with the colour that you chose and paid for, rather a standard black matte frame with white decals which is unacceptable as I’m sure you would agree. Specialized will also require a full inspection of the existing frame before any warranty is honoured. I can’t see how that is in any way superior to what Pole are offering?

Considering that my warranty experience with Specialized was much better than the OPs, it is safe to say that in my case the Specialized approach was way superior to what Pole is offering.

Anyway, I am not either a Specialized fanboy or a Pole hater (I actually like Pole bikes since the Evolink 1.4).

 

[Sander]

View attachment 109486

Hello everyone! It appears that the swingarm failure occurred at the pit designed for lower link clearance. Following the material failure, the bonding separates as the interface begins to bear most of the load. In some instances, even the link bonding may fail due to the uneven distribution of the swingarm load.

We've updated the swingarms on our Vikkelä bikes but haven't addressed this specific area yet. Receiving the broken parts is crucial for identifying the issue's root cause. The 7075-T6 production method sometimes results in quality inconsistencies, which could be the source of the problem.

As a high-end manufacturer, we're committed to providing reliable, top-quality products and ensuring customer satisfaction. Our 5-year warranty reflects this commitment and our goal to become a trusted name in the high-end mountain bike industry.

Our frames undergo rigorous testing, and while we didn't encounter this issue during testing, we recognize that our best-selling Voima model may still offer valuable learning experiences.

We're considering adopting an approach similar to Bosch's system to improve the warranty process. Customers purchase a replacement part, and if the warranty claim is approved after inspection, they receive a refund. This method could expedite the process.

We would appreciate your input on this potential solution, and your trust and satisfaction are paramount to us. Together, we can ensure the continued delivery of exceptional products and customer experiences.

Hi Leo,
Yesterday after riding my Voima (april 2022, before led), a cap a small swingarm almost felt off. It seems to be glued in. Just glue it in again? Is the cap a part of the structure (I guess so ;-)).
What can I do about it? Other side seems to be OK.
Thanks,
Sander, the Netherlands

 

[slickrock]

Hi Leo,
Yesterday after riding my Voima (april 2022, before led), a cap a small swingarm almost felt off. It seems to be glued in. Just glue it in again? Is the cap a part of the structure (I guess so ;-)).
What can I do about it? Other side seems to be OK.
Thanks,
Sander, the Netherlands

View attachment 127480

Interesting. Looks like the glue job is suspect. Although the swingarm appears to be functional, this looks to be a warranty incident and showed be logged with Pole. Hopefully, they will send out a replacement to swap out the part. I would get their feedback as to whether or not you should continue to use the bike in the meantime.

 

[Mikerb]

Is that piece ally or plastic?

 

[Sander]

Is that piece ally or plastic?

Alloy

 

[Paulquattro]

Looks quality

 

[leo_kokkonen]

Hi Leo,
Yesterday after riding my Voima (april 2022, before led), a cap a small swingarm almost felt off. It seems to be glued in. Just glue it in again? Is the cap a part of the structure (I guess so ;-)).
What can I do about it? Other side seems to be OK.
Thanks,
Sander, the Netherlands

View attachment 127480

Hi Sander,

That's unfortunate. We've noticed that the issue you're experiencing typically develops over time; it doesn't happen suddenly. Our service team will replace the affected component for you. It's a straightforward fix.

While you're at it, please also inspect your swingarm for any cracks near the drive side and lower link joint. We've had instances of this, and it's crucial for everyone to check. Although we're not issuing a recall—since the issue is inconsistent and doesn't result in a catastrophic failure—it's better to be safe.

We are in the process of rolling out significant updates shortly to address these issues and will replace parts as needed.