Pole Voima 190mm Travel EMTB

[jbrown15]

Sorry Rob, but I have to call you out on this post.

A properly designed carbon frame will be layed up into a cnc cut mould, all bearing housings and areas that require precision will be set by the mould. The layup variance , though critical to strength of the design should not effect bearing/pivot tolerances. In effect a properly designed carbon mould will be as accurate as cnc cut parts. You could make an arguement that carbons frames layed up in the same non changing mould will be more accurate than cnc machined parts over time as cnc machines experience tool wear and associated tolerance creep.

I'm just doing a full bearing replacement on my 2018 Rocky Mountain slayer suspension.

Ok I've had some challenges getting seized and grime packed beatings and bolts out.... that's my own fault for leaving it too long between maintenance intervals.

When I clean up the parts and press the bearings backing and reassemble the suspension everything fits like a glove.

The tolerances on that carbon frame are bang on....

I think what you experienced is some poor attention to detail to design tolerances for the carbon frame....

Ps, my day job Is designing and manufacturing. You can have a fantastic design but it can all turn to shit if you get the manufacturing tolerances wrong.... and or dont spend enough time and money on the tooling/jigging.

I work in a bike shop, in my experience Rob's observation is pretty accurate. Tolerances will vary from brand to brand and even batch to batch of bikes. It's not every time, but it's also not unusual. We'll do maintenance on the same model of bikes and the tolerances on the bearings can be quite different from the same model but a year or two apart in production.

 

[Durrti]

Just a quick comment on how this compares to building a carbon frame.

I just built up a 2024 Canyon Strive Full Carbon emtb from scratch. To fit the chainstays and seatstays was pretty tricky - everything requires a bit of movement / bending and pulling and to align everything for the bolts to pinch down straight. There's probably 0.3-1mm or so difference in the finished carbon product compared to the CAD, which means when building it it just doesnt quite line up properly without some kind of intervention (eg, using human force to fit it!).

In stark contrast, the Pole fit together like a dream, everything was in perfect alignment. No bending, pushing, pulling at all, it all goes together like a perfect fit. The axles line up perfect, the big oversized bearings and bolts all aligned perfect and bolts pulled through like a hot knife through butter... It was actually a really pleasant thing to assemble.

Thats the difference between a computer building a frame to 0.1mm tolerance and a human laying up a carbon frame to some kind of guide and everything being *almost* in place, but not perfect.

The end result is that the canyon will place different loads on the bearings / pivot points at different stress levels and will likely require more frequent maintenance (especially on the smaller bearings) where as the Pole will have lesser stresses places on these areas, and the bearings will most definitely perform better for longer (and they are much larger bearings too).

The Pole suspension will also be able to perform at near 100% as design, and the Canyon will likely not quite be quite as effective (95%?)

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As a guy that has had his Voima apart way more than I would like. Every time my bike is apart I have 1 or more bad bearing…

 

[jbrown15]

As a guy that has had his Voima apart way more than I would like. Every time my bike is apart I have 1 or more bad bearings…

Why are you having to take your Voima apart so often?

 

[Durrti]

Why are you having to take your Voima apart so often

Broken swing arm, race axels, and when swapping shocks I noticed a click/bump in a bearing that wound up being two.

 

[d3ftone]

Has anyone experimented with offset shock bushings to bring down the BB or does it not seem necessary? Even with two the BB would still be considered high compared to other modern bikes. Maybe a happy medium between really high and "normal"? Think there would be enough bottom out clearance with two installed? My Voima should be here in a couple weeks, will experiment.

 

[Blownoutrides]

Has anyone experimented with offset shock bushings to bring down the BB or does it not seem necessary? Even with two the BB would still be considered high compared to other modern bikes. Maybe a happy medium between really high and "normal"? Think there would be enough bottom out clearance with two installed? My Voima should be here in a couple weeks, will experiment.

I have noticed the high bb exactly zero times descending/cornering and I have hit my pedals exactly zero times. For me it’s been a complete non issue.

The one thing I will say is that the high BB leads to a higher seat height, and I do notice the higher seat a bit more when descending (dropper down). I think I’m compressing myself just that little bit more to keep my own CG in the same spot I’m used to, which means the seat is a couple cm’s higher relatively speaking.

And also this bike just absolutely rips. I’m faster downhill on this than any of the enduro bikes I’ve had in the last few years (and I’ve had an embarrassing number of them) even though it’s 20lbs heavier. You’re going to be stoked.

 

[Plummet]

Has anyone experimented with offset shock bushings to bring down the BB or does it not seem necessary? Even with two the BB would still be considered high compared to other modern bikes. Maybe a happy medium between really high and "normal"? Think there would be enough bottom out clearance with two installed? My Voima should be here in a couple weeks, will experiment.

Also consider that it has 20-30mm more travel than other enduro bikes. So needs s higher bb to compensate.

Ps Mine will be 10mm lower as I'm rolling mullet...........

 

[ebikerider]

This surely can’t be right. I have or have had all these. The gap between the Levo and Voima seems too large.

I took Delivery of my K3 Voima today. There’s no way it’s a 5kg heavier frame.

Updated the original post, thankfully there was a mistake. K2 is 13.7kg.

 

[Plummet]

Oooh

More bits for the Voima turned up today.

Now I just need a bike to fit it too....

 

[d3ftone]

Nice! I've ordered one of those as well. Hard to beat EXT, I've had them on my past couple bikes. Have you ridden one yet?

 

[Plummet]

Nice! I've ordered one of those as well. Hard to beat EXT, I've had them on my past couple bikes. Have you ridden one yet?

Yep. I have an Arma on one of my Slayers. But its not custom tuned to me as i bought it second hand

 

[leo_kokkonen]

’m not overly bothered by the weight but it is a step up from previous frames…

Frames with motor, battery, cranks and axle fitted.
S4 Kenevo SL 8.15kg
S4 Gen 3 Levo 11.25kg
K2 Voima 13.7kg

Did you happen to edit this post? There were elements that didn't quite seem right, which led me to return for a more in-depth look. According to your estimations on weight, it wouldn't be possible to construct a 23kg bike. Yet, he managed to accomplish this.

Take into account the Bosch system, which weighs approximately 7.4kg in total. In contrast, common e-bike frames - those rated category 5 - typically fall within the 3.5 to 4.5kg range. Lighter e-bike frames do exist, around 2.5kg, but these do not meet the category 5 criteria and are composed of a thin, fragile carbon layer.

For reference, consider the Pole Voima LED, which we measured at our factory. The combined weight of the frameset and motor totaled 12.34kg. This weight discrepancy when compared to the Levo seems considerable, and I plan to revisit this matter for further examination.

It would be more feasible to weight the frames without the batteries and give the battery WH and weight separately.

 

[Zimmerframe]

For reference, consider the Pole Voima LED, which we measured at our factory. The combined weight of the frameset and motor totaled 12.34kg. This weight discrepancy when compared to the Levo seems considerable, and I plan to revisit this matter for further examination.

Don't forget you have all the battery mounting hardware/lock mechanism which doesn't exist on a Levo.

 

[leo_kokkonen]

Sorry Rob, but I have to call you out on this post.

A properly designed carbon frame will be layed up into a cnc cut mould, all bearing housings and areas that require precision will be set by the mould. The layup variance , though critical to strength of the design should not effect bearing/pivot tolerances. In effect a properly designed carbon mould will be as accurate as cnc cut parts. You could make an arguement that carbons frames layed up in the same non changing mould will be more accurate than cnc machined parts over time as cnc machines experience tool wear and associated tolerance creep.

I'm just doing a full bearing replacement on my 2018 Rocky Mountain slayer suspension.

Ok I've had some challenges getting seized and grime packed beatings and bolts out.... that's my own fault for leaving it too long between maintenance intervals.

When I clean up the parts and press the bearings backing and reassemble the suspension everything fits like a glove.

The tolerances on that carbon frame are bang on....

I think what you experienced is some poor attention to detail to design tolerances for the carbon frame....

Ps, my day job Is designing and manufacturing. You can have a fantastic design but it can all turn to shit if you get the manufacturing tolerances wrong.... and or dont spend enough time and money on the tooling/jigging.

Your query sheds light on the intricacies of carbon frame production: why have bicycle manufacturers not been able to devise a frame with a seamlessly integrated bottom bracket?

It's crucial to note that manufacturers don't typically use a monocoque construction technique wherein the frame is created as one continuous piece. They also don't machine the bearing seats in a singular, uninterrupted process. Most commonly, swingarms are assembled from at least two distinct parts. Consequently, it's relatively uncommon to find bikes where the rear axle precisely aligns and directly intersects the opposite side. Bearing seats are usually bonded once the main frame is curing. These holes or bearing seats may not align perfectly or achieve a tolerance level on par with our CNC frame.

Our CNC frames stand out due to their extraordinary precision and consistency. Our manufacturing methodology ensures stringent control over dimensions and alignment, reducing tolerance issues and promises enhanced reliability in terms of performance and durability.

When considering manufacturers from China and Taiwan, it's worth pointing out that their manufacturing tolerance for moving parts is commonly set at 4mm to avert collisions. When applied from the bottom bracket to the rear axle, this sizeable tolerance could negatively affect the bike's performance. For instance, even a minor deviation of 0.13° at the onset of the swingarm could cause the rear axle to deviate by 1mm, potentially compromising the overall alignment and balance of the bike.

This discourse brings us to another salient observation: the strikingly similar design aesthetic across most bikes. This could represent a deliberate strategy by manufacturers to downplay apparent differences and disguise potential manufacturing inconsistencies.

You hit the nail on the head: Even an exceptional design can be undermined if the manufacturing process fails to maintain precise tolerances or if inadequate resources are allocated to tooling and jigging processes. This deficiency in manufacturing precision could elucidate the persistent challenge of producing integrated bottom brackets effectively. The primary reason is cost-prohibitive. However, we have successfully navigated this challenge. Our manufacturing approach incorporates high precision, and we've managed to strike a balance between quality and affordability.

 

[leo_kokkonen]

Don't forget you have all the battery mounting hardware/lock mechanism which doesn't exist on a Levo.

They're included in the weight I provided.

 

[Zimmerframe]

They're included in the weight I provided.

Yes, but they help explain why the voima is more than the levo ?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear with my post.

 

[Blownoutrides]

Your query sheds light on the intricacies of carbon frame production: why have bicycle manufacturers not been able to devise a frame with a seamlessly integrated bottom bracket?

It's crucial to note that manufacturers don't typically use a monocoque construction technique wherein the frame is created as one continuous piece. They also don't machine the bearing seats in a singular, uninterrupted process. Most commonly, swingarms are assembled from at least two distinct parts. Consequently, it's relatively uncommon to find bikes where the rear axle precisely aligns and directly intersects the opposite side. Bearing seats are usually bonded once the main frame is curing. These holes or bearing seats may not align perfectly or achieve a tolerance level on par with our CNC frame.

Our CNC frames stand out due to their extraordinary precision and consistency. Our manufacturing methodology ensures stringent control over dimensions and alignment, reducing tolerance issues and promises enhanced reliability in terms of performance and durability.

When considering manufacturers from China and Taiwan, it's worth pointing out that their manufacturing tolerance for moving parts is commonly set at 4mm to avert collisions. When applied from the bottom bracket to the rear axle, this sizeable tolerance could negatively affect the bike's performance. For instance, even a minor deviation of 0.13° at the onset of the swingarm could cause the rear axle to deviate by 1mm, potentially compromising the overall alignment and balance of the bike.

This discourse brings us to another salient observation: the strikingly similar design aesthetic across most bikes. This could represent a deliberate strategy by manufacturers to downplay apparent differences and disguise potential manufacturing inconsistencies.

You hit the nail on the head: Even an exceptional design can be undermined if the manufacturing process fails to maintain precise tolerances or if inadequate resources are allocated to tooling and jigging processes. This deficiency in manufacturing precision could elucidate the persistent challenge of producing integrated bottom brackets effectively. The primary reason is cost-prohibitive. However, we have successfully navigated this challenge. Our manufacturing approach incorporates high precision, and we've managed to strike a balance between quality and affordability.

I had a current gen carbon Norco Range swingarm that would scrape the front triangle halfway through the travel. Norco eventually replaced it but the ensuing back and forth meant that I had to buy another frame just to keep riding while waiting months for the warranty process to shake itself out.

That new frame arrived missing critical frame hardware (spacers in the linkage), which caused the frame to eat itself in short order and triggered another warranty replacement.

Perfect example of how delegating manufacturing and assembly can undermine a good design.

 

[Plummet]

Your query sheds light on the intricacies of carbon frame production: why have bicycle manufacturers not been able to devise a frame with a seamlessly integrated bottom bracket?

It's crucial to note that manufacturers don't typically use a monocoque construction technique wherein the frame is created as one continuous piece. They also don't machine the bearing seats in a singular, uninterrupted process. Most commonly, swingarms are assembled from at least two distinct parts. Consequently, it's relatively uncommon to find bikes where the rear axle precisely aligns and directly intersects the opposite side. Bearing seats are usually bonded once the main frame is curing. These holes or bearing seats may not align perfectly or achieve a tolerance level on par with our CNC frame.

Our CNC frames stand out due to their extraordinary precision and consistency. Our manufacturing methodology ensures stringent control over dimensions and alignment, reducing tolerance issues and promises enhanced reliability in terms of performance and durability.

When considering manufacturers from China and Taiwan, it's worth pointing out that their manufacturing tolerance for moving parts is commonly set at 4mm to avert collisions. When applied from the bottom bracket to the rear axle, this sizeable tolerance could negatively affect the bike's performance. For instance, even a minor deviation of 0.13° at the onset of the swingarm could cause the rear axle to deviate by 1mm, potentially compromising the overall alignment and balance of the bike.

This discourse brings us to another salient observation: the strikingly similar design aesthetic across most bikes. This could represent a deliberate strategy by manufacturers to downplay apparent differences and disguise potential manufacturing inconsistencies.

You hit the nail on the head: Even an exceptional design can be undermined if the manufacturing process fails to maintain precise tolerances or if inadequate resources are allocated to tooling and jigging processes. This deficiency in manufacturing precision could elucidate the persistent challenge of producing integrated bottom brackets effectively. The primary reason is cost-prohibitive. However, we have successfully navigated this challenge. Our manufacturing approach incorporates high precision, and we've managed to strike a balance between quality and affordability.

Well I'm looking forward to my precision piece of machining arriving!

I agree tolerance is everything in manufacturing. The tighter it is the more costly to manufacture.

I will push back and say that I don't think its the Voima manufacturing process that is allowing Pole to be competitive on a global stage. The cost to purchase billet of that size is very high, machine time is extensive. This is not a high volume manufacturing process that can be adopted for mass production. It's too slow and too costly. Total manufacturing cost (TMC) for a Voima will be a lot higher than that of a mainstream mass produced high end carbon frame. I would guess its at least twice as high.

However it does lend its self to a low volume direct to customer boutique brand like Pole. In my opinion its the direct to consumer marketing approach that allows Pole to reach a competitive price point with a higher manufacturing cost. If you added distributor and reseller margins on top of your manufacturing costs then we would see the Voima at dentist prices.

I am completely fine with that! The direct to consumer approach means we can enjoy the benefits of a boutique high end precision at reasonable prices.

It would be interesting to compare Voima precision against another low volume boutique brand manufacturing carbon bikes like Uno.

 

[ebikerider]

Did you happen to edit this post? There were elements that didn't quite seem right, which led me to return for a more in-depth look. According to your estimations on weight, it wouldn't be possible to construct a 23kg bike. Yet, he managed to accomplish this.

Take into account the Bosch system, which weighs approximately 7.4kg in total. In contrast, common e-bike frames - those rated category 5 - typically fall within the 3.5 to 4.5kg range. Lighter e-bike frames do exist, around 2.5kg, but these do not meet the category 5 criteria and are composed of a thin, fragile carbon layer.

For reference, consider the Pole Voima LED, which we measured at our factory. The combined weight of the frameset and motor totaled 12.34kg. This weight discrepancy when compared to the Levo seems considerable, and I plan to revisit this matter for further examination.

It would be more feasible to weight the frames without the batteries and give the battery WH and weight separately.

Yes I did edit the post after weighing the frame again. I will triple check later today. Method of weighing is using bathroom scales with me holding the frame so whilst it isn't an ideal method it should be relatively accurate (which is hilarious after messing up the first weigh in )

@Lightme @Plummet can you weigh your frames to compare when they arrive?

EDIT...triple check done and I confirmed my weighing method using barbell plates and my repeatable accuracy is spot on. K2 frame with rear axle, 750 battery, motor, cranks, chainring and a kitsuma air shock fitted is 13.7kg.

 

[Plummet]

Yes I did edit the post after weighing the frame again. I will triple check later today. Method of weighing is using bathroom scales with me holding the frame so whilst it isn't an ideal method it should be relatively accurate (which is hilarious after messing up the first weigh in )

@Lightme @Plummet can you weight your frames to compare when they arrive?

EDIT...triple check done and I confirmed my weighing method using barbell plates and my repeatable accuracy is spot on. K2 frame with rear axle, 750 battery, motor, cranks, chainring and a kitsuma air shock fitted is 13.7kg.

Will do. Its hurry up and wait now.... how long till it take? The tracking just says I transit.....

 

[Plummet]

Can one of you Voima owners do me a favour?

Measure the height of the Pole lettering on the down tube?

 

[Durrti]

Can one of you Voima owners do me a favour?

Measure the height of the Pole lettering on the down tube?

Sticker or the machining?

 

[Plummet]

Sticker or the machining?

Either. I assume they are a similar size.

 

[Durrti]

Either. I assume they are a similar size.

23mm

 

[Plummet]

23mm

Chur

 

[Blownoutrides]

EXT Arma just arrived. Other worldly compared to stock. Shakedown ride tonight with first fully drained battery doing turbo laps on the local. This bike is something really special.

 

[BigG]

EXT Arma just arrived. Other worldly compared to stock. Shakedown ride tonight with first fully drained battery doing turbo laps on the local. This bike is something really special.

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Why slamming stem so much?
I’m similar height as you and have 30mm under stem and 60mm rise bars, and 10mm rise stem. It’s just feels so much better seated, nice going down too. Basically matching saddle height with grips.
Also, which spring rate you ended up getting?

 

[Blownoutrides]

Why slamming stem so much?
I’m similar height as you and have 30mm under stem and 60mm rise bars, and 10mm rise stem. It’s just feels so much better seated, nice going down too. Basically matching saddle height with grips.
Also, which spring rate you ended up getting?

Maintaining similar stack height to my last few enduro bikes. Going higher could feel comfier seated but I’ve had issues with not enough pressure on front wheel when cornering when I’ve gone higher. Bar is 30mm rise but I’ve got a 50mm rise bar to play with. We’ll see.

Got a 500 and 550 from EXT. Went 550 to start with and feels pretty spot on, if a little on the soft side (?). Might swap the 500 for a 575 just to try it. My zone has a lot of jumps/drops but very few landings LOL. so having some spring in reserve doesn’t hurt.

 

[Jukka4130]

It would be interesting to compare Voima precision against another low volume boutique brand manufacturing carbon bikes like Uno.

One thing to note – if not known already – is that Unno frames are nowadays made in Asia. This is not to say that the manufacturing quality has gotten lower compared to the operations they had in Barcelona. Most people still assume that the frames are still made in their own facility, which isn't the case.

 

[Plummet]

One thing to note – if not known already – is that Unno frames are nowadays made in Asia. This is not to say that the manufacturing quality has gotten lower compared to the operations they had in Barcelona. Most people still assume that the frames are still made in their own facility, which isn't the case.

I did here that but wasnt 100% sure.