New Nicolai with Pinion gearbox announced

[Suns_PSD]

I doubt it's cast iron and looking at it I'd guess that's the typical weight for a machined Al of that size.

Someone put a magnet on it to find out.

 

[slickrock]

I doubt it's cast iron and looking at it I'd guess that's the typical weight for a machined Al of that size.

Someone put a magnet on it to find out.

Like I said...

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Like I said...

View attachment 149848

It is heavy isn’t it!

Wonder why they chose this material? I can only assume it’s for strength/ durability vs aluminium - it’s exposed under the bottom bracket so will no doubt be at risk of impacts.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

By the way, loving this bikes handling. The suspension performance is incredible. As is the handling. It handles so much lighter than the weight suggests.

The rear suspension is so supple, ultra reactive and actually feels pretty playful, which surprised me a bit.

I’m running it as a mullet bike, I reckon the weight reduction out the back with the smaller rear wheel and tyre, no mech / cassette massively influence how the rear end performs.

Hitting enduro trails on the bike is so good. Ultra quiet, very good chassis and incredible suspension.

The motor noise still bothers me on gears 1-4. And it’s a bit clunky elsewhere. I’m getting used to it, but have a wish list for a V2 Pinion already!

 

[whitymon]

My bet is that this tensioner is provided by pinion, same as the crank?

Maybe Nicolai could have machined an AL one but as we mentioned it, casing this part on a jump and it could really destroyed the bike with a light piece.

As for v2 to me:
- tob tube integration or low profile controler
- noise
- tensioner more integrated. We could have a higher fixation of the pulley that does not go lower than BB
- wonder about an inverted installation of the tensioner or a high pivot / could generate drag so I do not know
- slim battery, down tube is very big

 

[lar1337]

By the way, loving this bikes handling. The suspension performance is incredible. As is the handling. It handles so much lighter than the weight suggests.

The rear suspension is so supple, ultra reactive and actually feels pretty playful, which surprised me a bit.

I’m running it as a mullet bike, I reckon the weight reduction out the back with the smaller rear wheel and tyre, no mech / cassette massively influence how the rear end performs.

Hitting enduro trails on the bike is so good. Ultra quiet, very good chassis and incredible suspension.

The motor noise still bothers me on gears 1-4. And it’s a bit clunky elsewhere. I’m getting used to it, but have a wish list for a V2 Pinion already!

View attachment 149862

Could only keep one....which?

 

[Onetime]

By the way, loving this bikes handling. The suspension performance is incredible. As is the handling. It handles so much lighter than the weight suggests.

The rear suspension is so supple, ultra reactive and actually feels pretty playful, which surprised me a bit.

I’m running it as a mullet bike, I reckon the weight reduction out the back with the smaller rear wheel and tyre, no mech / cassette massively influence how the rear end performs.

Hitting enduro trails on the bike is so good. Ultra quiet, very good chassis and incredible suspension.

The motor noise still bothers me on gears 1-4. And it’s a bit clunky elsewhere. I’m getting used to it, but have a wish list for a V2 Pinion already!

View attachment 149862

How is the Ohlins suspension vs the Intend that you had on it?

 

[slickrock]

It is heavy isn’t it!

Wonder why they chose this material? I can only assume it’s for strength/ durability vs aluminium - it’s exposed under the bottom bracket so will no doubt be at risk of impacts.

I did some digging into this. It looks like this tensioner is second iteration of the one used on the GT1 EBOXX bikes. The original version looks like it had a CNC alloy swingarm and an external mechanism to adjust spring tension.

Also the prior version was unified - it consisted of 2 end-piece housing that were single pieces mated together that both housed the spring as well as provided mounting flanges.

This newer version (don't have a diagram) separates the spring housing from the flanges, so different flanges can be used with different models for their bikes (Saturn flanges or EBOXX flanges). This is clearly a more flexible design and would also allow a DIYer or other OEMS to craft their own linkage flange to outfit on other bikes. OTOH, this probably makes for a heavier design due to the extra attachments. As to why the the moved away from an CNC arm to a cast metal (BTW, I don't think its full cast iron anymore since the magnet weakly attaches) I'm not sure.

 

[slickrock]

My bet is that this tensioner is provided by pinion, same as the crank?

Maybe Nicolai could have machined an AL one but as we mentioned it, casing this part on a jump and it could really destroyed the bike with a light piece.

As for v2 to me:
- tob tube integration or low profile controler
- noise
- tensioner more integrated. We could have a higher fixation of the pulley that does not go lower than BB
- wonder about an inverted installation of the tensioner or a high pivot / could generate drag so I do not know
- slim battery, down tube is very big

A lot to unpack here:

1. This tensioner is not from Pinion, but rather from Nicolai partnership with Universal Transmissions.
2. The Pinion tensioner that goes along with their own MGU (and their other gearbox products) is IMO a far worse design, as it sits keel-like under the motor, directly exposed to strikes and mud, not to mention an ungainly look.
3. Nicolai is a better design and they know this - it's transverse mounted behind the motor (fully behind with the EBOXX and mostly behind with the Saturn) so it's out of harm's way. As such arm could be fully alloy. If anything, It seems over engineered.
4. As you hinted there are other places to put the tensioner that could streamline the design - on the swingarm, on rear axle mount on the frame near an idler gear, but all this requires deliberate design work on frame builder. Frankly, Pinion should provide a better tensioner design that directly mounts to their motor.
5. Something to think about - create a rear suspension with concentric rear axle path. That way you wouldn't need a spring tensioner at all. Because EMTBs have mid-motors this may require an idler gear configuration.

 

[shakazulu12]

Hmmm. I'm in the USA. If I try and buy a complete bike, it says shipping not available. Which I already knew. However, if I try to purchase a frame kit, it let's me do it. Although the shipping price is 1,000 Euro. Which I assume is because Lithium batteries are a major hassle.

 

[Jamo]

My frame is due any day now. Will report range.

Out of interest when did you place your order?

 

[shib]

August 22. First inquiry was in July with a quoted delivery week of (german) calendar week 40, when. placed the order delivery was estimated for week 43, which was later postponed to week 45 and I collected the frame yesterday (week 46). Building the bike was simple and I just returned from our local trails where I applied some November dirt on the shiny new bike. Can't say much right now because the trails were in a super gooey state, but the bike felt familiar right away... next Saturday we're having a long ride and weather is supposed to be better by then, so we'll see...

The motor is not quiet, I think it's something I can get used to though. When pointed downhill, the bike is by far the quietest bike I ever had. Impressive!

Edit; I did a last minute swap from Fox DHX to EXT e-Storia @ 205x65, so 166mm rear travel. The shock is supported by Nicolai and you can get it with a frame or complete bike.

 

[Jamo]

Thanks for your reply.
I ordered mine 28th June, and like you had been given a variety of different dates through August, september, october, and now here we are in November and I still dont have it.

Really disappointed - not just at the timescale but also the various ‘excuses’ that were offered by nicolai for the continued delay.

I am receiving a frame only and I’m in the uk. I had a feeling nicolai have been prioritising other orders ahead of mine and you have confirmed this.

Anyway i’m told it’s now on its way to me as of today. Kinda looking forward to seeing it, but to be honest most of the initial excitement has fizzled out by the way it has gone.

 

[shib]

Did you order it with the explorer kit/racks etc.?

 

[Jamo]

Did you order it with the explorer kit/racks etc.?

No, none of that stuff. Just the frame, no shock, but an extra battery

 

[shib]

Hmmm. That is really weird. I have ordered many frames from Nicolai and they never did that. Wonder what the excuses were?

 

[whitymon]

Maybe UK destination pose now more issue?

 

[slickrock]

August 22. First inquiry was in July with a quoted delivery week of (german) calendar week 40, when. placed the order delivery was estimated for week 43, which was later postponed to week 45 and I collected the frame yesterday (week 46). Building the bike was simple and I just returned from our local trails where I applied some November dirt on the shiny new bike. Can't say much right now because the trails were in a super gooey state, but the bike felt familiar right away... next Saturday we're having a long ride and weather is supposed to be better by then, so we'll see...

View attachment 150170

The motor is not quiet, I think it's something I can get used to though. When pointed downhill, the bike is by far the quietest bike I ever had. Impressive!

Edit; I did a last minute swap from Fox DHX to EXT e-Storia @ 205x65, so 166mm rear travel. The shock is supported by Nicolai and you can get it with a frame or complete bike.

Has Nicolai bailed on the their proprietary rear sprocket? I see a snubber hugging the belt and full alloy rear sprocket on this bike.

 

[rastablondi]

 

[TonTonUB]

Any chance Nicolai release the 'eboxx frame' with a Pinion MGU too ?
Too bad i can't test one, in south France !
... yes, it's a telepathic message for Nicolai Staff .... you want ... wou NEEEEEDDDD to organize a test session in FRENCH 'terres noires'

 

[shib]

Has Nicolai bailed on the their proprietary rear sprocket? I see a snubber hugging the belt and full alloy rear sprocket on this bike.

Yes. When I collected the frame, I was told that customers reported belt squeaking with their "antiskip" sprocket, which led them to reverting to the standard one, with a snubber. I personally prefer the look of the silver one anyways and don't mind the snubber. Have changed the front sprocket to a silver one without bash guard in the mean time, too. Both sprockets are stainless steel though, not alloy.

Sorry for being quiet, I managed to crash badly on my second ride with the Saturn and fractured my collarbone three times. Would have happened with every other bike, and I can't wait to get back on the saddle, but anyway, that was quite unfortunate. However, surgery was 4 weeks ago and recovery is going swiftly so far.

Enjoy the Season everyone!

PS: check your crankarm bolts, they're supposed to have 10Nm but mine had considerably less.

 

[slickrock]

Sorry to hear about being laid up after the crash. Is it possible to get a close-up picture of the snubber and how its mounted?

When you get back into the fray of riding, I was wondering if you (or anyone else with snubber-configured version) run an experiment:

1. Remove the snubber before your ride and take it with you.
2. Ride the bike in various conditions (uphill and down) and see if the belt skips. If it skips a lot then put the snubber back on during the ride.
3. If skips infrequently, then try turning up the spring tension on the belt tensioner and see if it stops skipping. Of course there is a sweet spot of belt tension for proper performance, but perhaps running a bit more taught might help.

The reason I'm requesting this is that the ratio of the motor requires a pretty larger rear sprocket at 32T - that seems like enough teeth to prevent belt slippage under tension. When using other internal gear transmissions like the Rohloff, the ratio is such that the rear sprocket needs to be quite small (like 20T). In this situation a snubber is essential as there is simply not enough teeth for the belt to cling to. But 32T and at a larger diameter MOA is larger, I think it just might work without one. Of course, belt alignment would need to be true and use Gates CDX belt.

 

[Lexle]

My Dreambuild

 

[Onetime]

View attachment 152521 View attachment 152522 View attachment 152523 View attachment 152524 View attachment 152525 View attachment 152526 My Dreambuild

She’s a beauty! How’s that Push suspension ride?

 

[Lexle]

She’s a beauty! How’s that Push suspension ride?

really amazing

 

[shib]

Sorry to hear about being laid up after the crash. Is it possible to get a close-up picture of the snubber and how its mounted?

When you get back into the fray of riding, I was wondering if you (or anyone else with snubber-configured version) run an experiment:

1. Remove the snubber before your ride and take it with you.
2. Ride the bike in various conditions (uphill and down) and see if the belt skips. If it skips a lot then put the snubber back on during the ride.
3. If skips infrequently, then try turning up the spring tension on the belt tensioner and see if it stops skipping. Of course there is a sweet spot of belt tension for proper performance, but perhaps running a bit more taught might help.

The reason I'm requesting this is that the ratio of the motor requires a pretty larger rear sprocket at 32T - that seems like enough teeth to prevent belt slippage under tension. When using other internal gear transmissions like the Rohloff, the ratio is such that the rear sprocket needs to be quite small (like 20T). In this situation a snubber is essential as there is simply not enough teeth for the belt to cling to. But 32T and at a larger diameter MOA is larger, I think it just might work without one. Of course, belt alignment would need to be true and use Gates CDX belt.

A few more months at least before I get anywhere close to being able to try what you're looking for... but for starters, here's pics:

There is a tiny gap between belt and snubber, less than a millimeter I'd say. I can shove a sheet of paper between belt and snubber, but not much more. The snubber has some scratches already and I'd guess it is something that needs to be replaced frequently. However I too feel like the snubber might not even be necessary.

 

[Steamboy]

Hello,

Nicolai Saturn is a quite facinating bike, and as I want to change mine, I am looking for information from first hand real user.
- I was wandering if, on flat surface, above 25km/h, it is similar to the behaviour of the bosch system, even with the included gearbox ?
- Is the 720 battery capacity is similar to bosch system (the only I know ) in range, and if it exist a range extender vs the 960 kW version ?
- 27 kg is not on the light side, even for an aluminum frame, how does it feel in the day to day operation ?

Thanks for any feedback,
Regards

 

[slickrock]

A few more months at least before I get anywhere close to being able to try what you're looking for... but for starters, here's pics:

View attachment 153012 View attachment 153013

There is a tiny gap between belt and snubber, less than a millimeter I'd say. I can shove a sheet of paper between belt and snubber, but not much more. The snubber has some scratches already and I'd guess it is something that needs to be replaced frequently. However I too feel like the snubber might not even be necessary.

Thanks for snapshots. Since the snubber is just a bushing rather than an actual roller, It leads me to think that belt skipping is rare with this model. I don't think that would fly with something like a Rohloff, where the gear ratio of the IGH requires very small rear sprockets (18-22T).

One thing I can't quite make out from the pics provided: does the snubber mount at the thru-axle or off of a derailleur hanger?

 

[shib]

It‘s not a derailleur hanger per se, but it reminds me of a UDH with a dropout specifically suited for the belt bushing/snubber. Bike is in the shed and the shed is really cold, so I will check tomorrow.