LA Fires - Who's been Affected?

[nv70]

I guess dont trust cyclist with "flamethrower"in wildfire area

 

[Stihldog]

I believe we had two of the Martin Mars water bombers based out of Srout Lake on Vancouver Island. The others were in California and Australia.

The Martin Mars Water Bomber: A Legacy in Aerial Firefighting

The Martin Mars water bomber, a legendary aircraft with a rich history, has made an indelible mark on aerial firefighting.

totalprepare.ca

6000 gals of water during a single drop and very impressive to watch. The smaller water bombers used in the California fires drop 1500 gallons. There’s advantages to both.

Our use during fires were mainly helicopters fixed with Bambi Buckets and the Martin Mars water bombers. A guided path was determined by the “Bird-Dog”, followed by the Martin Mars moments later. Fire fighting crews would need to be evacuated from the area.

The amount of coordination in the Cali fires would be immense. So many factors to consider.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I believe we had two of the Martin Mars water bombers based out of Srout Lake on Vancouver Island.

I've followed those over the years. I think Hawaii Mars was recently retired and Philippine Mars has just been renovated, though not sure it will be returning to service.

Amazing planes, the walk throughs are interesting.

 

[Stihldog]

I've followed those over the years. I think Hawaii Mars was recently retired and Philippine Mars has just been renovated, though not sure it will be returning to service.

Amazing planes, the walk throughs are interesting.

I’ve never done a walk through but I heard that some of framing is wood? They are old after all.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I’ve never done a walk through but I heard that some of framing is wood? They are old after all.

Everything I remember seeing was metal, but that doesn't mean some of it wasn't wood. No reason why not, it has it's advantages and disadvantages. We like wood !

 

[Downhillr]

My original hometown and foothills trail stomping grounds are up in flames and the devastation is still ongoing. While I've been safely perched on rain-soaked soil and green hills of the Bay Area that has been my home for decades now, I'm swept up by this travesty just the same. All that rain in the PNW over the last couple of months never made down to SoCal. My extended family is safe, but folks with just one degree of separation from me and them have lost their homes and livelihoods. And the trails I used to ride there will never be same. Who else of the forum has been affected that would like to share their thoughts or trail experiences out there?

I spent my middle & high school years in Sierra Madre and also have lived in SF Bay area for years. I have friends in SoCal who fortunately have avoided the devastation of the current fires although they are traumatized by the scope and anticipated after-effects.

 

[Downhillr]

I'm sure it's not "simple". But I was drawn to the proposal that well-meaning "greenies" actually caused a much worse problem. Haven't native American Indians, for thousands of years, been carrying out controlled burning to keep down the scrub to prevent such an intense fire happening? They accepted that forest fires couldn't be stopped, just made less worse. But of course, the educated civilised modern folk know better.

Historically, many if the areas currently burning were not populated by multiple millions of human inhabitants living in burnable structures extending there occupancy into forests and scrublands and planting decorative vegetation.
That, combined with an historic weather event (extreme wet winter fostering increased grassland and underbrush growth followed by extreme dry Spring-Fall period accompanied by stronger, more consistent Santa Ana wind conditions) led to this perfect storm. Unless you have lived in or visited the vast area involved it is difficult to fathom what a potential tinderbox it is and simply blaming “greenies”, “forest management”, “water policies” etc.. is naive.

 

[steve_sordy]

Historically, many if the areas currently burning were not populated by multiple millions of human inhabitants living in burnable structures extending there occupancy into forests and scrublands and planting decorative vegetation.
That, combined with an historic weather event (extreme wet winter fostering increased grassland and underbrush growth followed by extreme dry Spring-Fall period accompanied by stronger, more consistent Santa Ana wind conditions) led to this perfect storm. Unless you have lived in or visited the vast area involved it is difficult to fathom what a potential tinderbox it is and simply blaming “greenies”, “forest management”, “water policies” etc.. is naive.

I agree that it is difficult to fathom. But if it such a potential tinderbox then why the lack of preventive measures. Or is this a one in a million event? I suspect not. I suspect that now that all the horses have escaped, the stable door will be well and truly bolted shut before the insurance companies will release money for rebuilding.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I agree that it is difficult to fathom. But if it such a potential tinderbox then why the lack of preventive measures. Or is this a one in a million event? I suspect not. I suspect that now that all the horses have escaped, the stable door will be well and truly bolted shut before the insurance companies will release money for rebuilding.

You really need to stop listing to the constant BS that everyone is just sitting on their arses doing nothing, whilst probably looking at pretty flowers and smoking happy sticks waiting for Rome to burn. You're an intelligent man - clearly that's not the case !

It's a VAST area ! It's constantly changing. I had a fire at mine last year, despite daily management of everyting. For a week it kept re-igniting as the fire travelled underground. Rain actually made it worse as it kept puncturing the surface so air then got in and off it went again. Fire can be infinitely unpredictable !

Please watch this. Ignore the political sides and frustrations. It starts with the Musk interview, then skip the none chat bit and jump to 3:37 for the interview with the Fire Marshall.

 

[Mabman]

The west coast of the U.S. has certainly been having its share of fires whether within forestlands or urban areas. As Steve suggests there are some preventive measures that can be taken going forward but it doesn't do much good for existing structures like the ones tragically lost in this recent event.
However it will be a good idea if while rebuilding the area they do pay attention to any preventive measures possible. This popped up on my YT feed today:

 

[Zimmerframe]

The west coast of the U.S. has certainly been having its share of fires whether within forestlands or urban areas. As Steve suggests there are some preventive measures that can be taken going forward but it doesn't do much good for existing structures like the ones tragically lost in this recent event.
However it will be a good idea if while rebuilding the area they do pay attention to any preventive measures possible. This popped up on my YT feed today:

I saw that too !

Though there's a huge amount of luck also involved !!!!!

The new built house was lucky in that the house on one side had been demolished before the fire, so it had a natural fire break. That's not to diminish the relevance of many of the points raised though.

Tom was equally lucky, though several of the surrounding houses were also ok.

Hopefully they'll look at a lot of the surviving structures and change codes accordingly (though already strict I believe in that area)

Ultimately, property density is high as it's a desirable place to live.

Maybe all pools should also be plumbed into a hydrant network/secondary network. Nearly all the pools in the burnt out areas still seem to be full. Would give a pretty vast amount of additional emergency temporary water supply which is more accessible than running through a property with your 100m hose and pump unit to try and pump it out then moving to the next etc etc .. (yes, you'd need suction hoses to goto the appliance/pump unit and couldn't just connect your hose, but it's still an accessible source)

 

[irie]

You really need to stop listing to the constant BS that everyone is just sitting on their arses doing nothing, whilst probably looking at pretty flowers and smoking happy sticks waiting for Rome to burn. You're an intelligent man - clearly that's not the case !

It's a VAST area ! It's constantly changing. I had a fire at mine last year, despite daily management of everyting. For a week it kept re-igniting as the fire travelled underground. Rain actually made it worse as it kept puncturing the surface so air then got in and off it went again. Fire can be infinitely unpredictable !

Please watch this. Ignore the political sides and frustrations. It starts with the Musk interview, then skip the none chat bit and jump to 3:37 for the interview with the Fire Marshall.

Is your house built of concrete, mortar, and stone, or is it built of timber? Just asking.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Is your house built of concrete, mortar, and stone, or is it built of timber? Just asking.

Most "older" French buildings are stone (60cm walls or more, normally 1m max) with generally Chestnut beams and often Walnut floors (I guess there was a lot of walnut in the past). Obviously this changes over time scales and where you are in the country (some literally have earth walls - which still survive hundreds of years if maintained (mainly the roof ! or it's fecked).

For example, my old gaff (which has twin French meanings so gets more complicated :-D) one of the lofts which had a temporary gym and the paintball rainy day play area in.. Imagine that in a fire !! (25m*10m and a sh1t load of wood !)

Don't worry, I can already see your concern .. that's a lot of stairs to climb and a long way to walk to a gym, so I did make her a more accessible one next to the stables. (WARNING: Don't ever do this - she used it once)

Since separating I'm in the Bike shed, which is in a woods .. so worrying is normal when there's fires ! Because, well, when you live in a woods - there is always the chance it will combust ! Wet or dry, it's flammable !

So called because .. well, it's the bike shed ..

It's vastly unusual in it's construction as it has triple walls. An inner wall of brick. A secondary concrete wall. And an outer wood (log cabin) wall. (Co-incidentally I met the guy who built it 50 years ago in a bar last week and have asked him to come over - yes, he was OLD ! But not fat, so not ideal for EMTB ;-) ). It's almost a passive house as the rear is underground (the wine cellar) and it only requires occasional heat from the wood stove (which is obviously free to run as I live in a woods and trees die/fall over in storms).

I also have my "BBQ Area" .. which is equally exposed to fire despite it endless re-cycled tin and old grain silo's. I have zero illusions that any of it would survive in the event of a fire with 100mph winds. I was only lucky the last time as the winds were strong but nothing like that.

Reciprocal roof in anyones boats are floated from construction ideas - they're so cool ! A total b$stard to calculate and not easy to lift beams up, but well worth the effort and they look amazing/are phenomenally strong.

Not sure if that helps. Seems detracting to everyone who's lives are totally fecked in an ongoing situation of rising winds and I'd imagine endless anxiety of anyone and everyone in the area.

Is that enough crap ? Can we now focus on the OP's original post ?

 

[steve_sordy]

You really need to stop listing to the constant BS that everyone is just sitting on their arses doing nothing, whilst probably looking at pretty flowers and smoking happy sticks waiting for Rome to burn. You're an intelligent man - clearly that's not the case !

It's a VAST area ! It's constantly changing. I had a fire at mine last year, despite daily management of everyting. For a week it kept re-igniting as the fire travelled underground. Rain actually made it worse as it kept puncturing the surface so air then got in and off it went again. Fire can be infinitely unpredictable !

Please watch this. Ignore the political sides and frustrations. It starts with the Musk interview, then skip the none chat bit and jump to 3:37 for the interview with the Fire Marshall.

I watched the video you sent from 3:37 to avoid Musk. Also the one sent by @Mabman. Both were very interesting indeed, with much food for thought. Believe it or not those are the only two vids that I have seen on the LA fires topic. My information so far has been from the BBC and the Sunday Times. Both of those are respected organisations for their intelligent and in-depth reporting of this sort of thing. (Maybe not 100% unbiased for political stuff, but you can't have everything).

I have not been "listening to the constant BS that everyone is just sitting on their arses doing nothing......." I am not on my phone for many hours per day, leaping from one piece of click bait to another.

As I said before, I would expect that the insurance companies, who will have lost a huge amount of money, will not release funds for rebuilding to the same building standards as before. They will also have something to say to the authorities about maintaining water pressure in the mains.
I used to work for a global company who insisted for many years that all their buildings should be able to withstand a once in 200-year rainstorm or snow loading, instead of the more usual 100-year standard. The builders all complained, saying that the cost could not be justified, but as we were paying, they did it. But guess what? In the UK, we had one (rain, not snow) and then another! I assume that those events are now included inside the once in a 100-year events.

Sadly, human history shows us that it takes a disaster to change things. Bridges, tall buildings, ships, building cladding, medicines..................

 

[irie]

.
As I said before, I would expect that the insurance companies, who will have lost a huge amount of money, will not release funds for rebuilding to the same building standards as before.

I would expect insurance companies to release funds for rebuilding. But to refuse to insure the new buildings until or unless what they consider to be appropriate fire control measures are put in place. Or perhaps refuse point blank to insure any buildings, old or new.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I believe (amazingly) that insurance companies have already been paying out ! For re-build/accommodation etc.

FEMA are offering grants upto 43,800 (dollars) for anyone not insured to at least get things moving (plus 10k from Cali on top of that). If your insurance is less than that then they cover the difference - obviously that's nothing compared to a house, but it's more than nothing and purely intended to get things moving.

Lots of the houses already aren't insured based on location/risk - at least to anywhere near value. The loss figures compared to the insured losses are vastly disproportionate, so there's already a massive loss for many people. OK, for some, that might be affordable, for most, it won't.

They will also have something to say to the authorities about maintaining water pressure in the mains.

How do you do that when you have 10000's of properties literally with all their pipes open because there's nothing connected anymore and 1000's of fire trucks trying to pump 100 gallons a minute onto a fire ?? - this is NOT a blame game !

200-year rainstorm or snow loading, instead of the more usual 100-year standard.

Fantastic .. but we've fecked it with 100's of millions of atmospheric processing machines which are converting the crap which once made the planet uninhabitable for us back into what it was . Very very very efficiently ! We're great ! Go Humans !

I'm not going to try and go down the anger inducting rabbit hole of deniers as there's no discussion, only stubbornness and denial. Endless irrational quotes and justifications - as per the previous thread where you all kicked off with the same recipe. Not - what can we do to fix the feck up, what can we do to change, god no, we can't change or even entertain the idea. NO ! The SAME !!!! Keep it all the same, we haven't fecked anything up, there's zero change, it's all natural, I want my new car, I'll be dead soon so feck you all, Mars is just down the road - lets feck the planet as much as possible so I can sell Mars.

This last paragraph was brought to you by frustrated.com. @Moderator , please delete if it's political.

 

[irie]

I believe (amazingly) that insurance companies have already been paying out ! For re-build/accommodation etc.

FEMA are offering grants upto 43,800 (dollars) for anyone not insured to at least get things moving (plus 10k from Cali on top of that). If your insurance is less than that then they cover the difference - obviously that's nothing compared to a house, but it's more than nothing and purely intended to get things moving.

Lots of the houses already aren't insured based on location/risk - at least to anywhere near value. The loss figures compared to the insured losses are vastly disproportionate, so there's already a massive loss for many people. OK, for some, that might be affordable, for most, it won't.


How do you do that when you have 10000's of properties literally with all their pipes open because there's nothing connected anymore and 1000's of fire trucks trying to pump 100 gallons a minute onto a fire ?? - this is NOT a blame game !

Fantastic .. but we've fecked it with 100's of millions of atmospheric processing machines which are converting the crap which once made the planet uninhabitable for us back into what it was . Very very very efficiently ! We're great ! Go Humans !

I'm not going to try and go down the anger inducting rabbit hole of deniers as there's no discussion, only stubbornness and denial. Endless irrational quotes and justifications - as per the previous thread where you all kicked off with the same recipe. Not - what can we do to fix the feck up, what can we do to change, god no, we can't change or even entertain the idea. NO ! The SAME !!!! Keep it all the same, we haven't fecked anything up, there's zero change, it's all natural, I want my new car, I'll be dead soon so feck you all, Mars is just down the road - lets feck the planet as much as possible so I can sell Mars.

This last paragraph was brought to you by frustrated.com. @Moderator , please delete if it's political.

/rant

 

[Downhillr]

I agree that it is difficult to fathom. But if it such a potential tinderbox then why the lack of preventive measures. Or is this a one in a million event? I suspect not. I suspect that now that all the horses have escaped, the stable door will be well and truly bolted shut before the insurance companies will release money for rebuilding.

I suppose my question would be: What, specifically, are you referring to in “lack of preventative measures”?

 

[Downhillr]

As for insurance companies… in many areas of CA the insurance companies have cancelled (“non-renewal”) homeowners’ policies arbitrarily rather than truly on a risk basis. My former and now non-renewed policy was geld by the state’s largest insurer on a postal zip code basis despite our having spent thousands of dollars for tree removal (seen the size of a redwood?), redesigning yard vegetation spacing from the house and annual grass/brush clearing. These companies are more than willing to issue policies to insure other profitable, less risky items vehicle, theft, etc… case in point: after our non-renewal the same company offered us a policy to cover the balance of everything as before EXCEPT fire coverage and at a new rate above our previous all- inclusive policy while we had to purchase the state provided, limited and very expensive fire coverage… actual net effect, as of Jan 2025 our insurance costs rose from $4,800 annually to over $12,000, for the same coverages! The insurance companies are effectively playing an extortion game with state’s insurance regulators to be allowed to raise their rates to unrealistic levels, utilizing homeowners as hostages in the game.