Ah, nice, thought I recognised Fusion. Don't suppose you're up for sharing the model of the stock case are you?
Dengfu E22 Frame Thread
- Thread starter Neeko DeVinchi
- Start date
Pretty sure I read here that you folks aren't using gear sensors, is that the general consensus?
Anecdotally, my BBSHD build started without one and it wasn't kind to the cassette. Fitting one made the whole experience feel way more refined. I totally appreciate that 'feel' and riding style is a personal thing, but I'm okay with that cut to the power when shifting, without it felt (to me) like driving a manual without using the clutch - and was brutalising my bike.
That makes a lot of sense, now I'm really conflicted though, or at least doubting my choices.
I'm still in the buying parts process of my build, but I started off buying a 11-42 10-speed cassette (which is what I have on my BBSHD), on the rationale that 10-speed has some chunk to it. I've since returned that, because I couldn't source the derailleur and shifters I wanted. So I've 'compromised' and ordered an 11-speed Shimano setup (M8000 series), got it for a bargain price as everybody and their dog seems to be hankering after 12-speed these days.
Right decision, wrong decision...?
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
Dunno. I guess it depends on how you ride it. I think I am quite heavy on the throttle with mine. I only seam to get about 15km of full power out of my battery (i guess because I gas it so much haha). So that's alot of wear going into the drivetrain.
For me the 9 speed is a definite improvement. It has plenty of gear range, with 11 to 50. Which is equivelant to many current 12spd options. I also actually enjoy having less gears. It means less shifts, and it also means the ratio step up/down for each gear is larger. I find that is a good match when you have a torquey motor.
On a manual bike, I think having a large gear range (ie, 520%, 555%), while simultaneously also having smaller/tighter ratio steps between each gear is a good thing. The only way to do that with a one-by system, is with more gears. Hence why 12spds exist. But on a eMTB, I don't think you need the that close gearing like you do with a manual bike.
The other thing I like about the 9spd system is the price. I got a complete 9spd group for less than just a replacent 12spd cassete. Infact, I actually bought 2 complete 9spd groups (a box 2 and a box 3) for the same price as just the e13 cassette I destroyed.
Even if the 9spd proves to not be that reliable long term. It isn't really an issue as they are so cheap. I'm probably gonna buy a few more 9spd cassettes and chains just to have as spares.
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
I dont have a gear sensor. The 12spd shifts when under load were brutal. But I dont think that was what caused my issues. It could have been the cause, but I dont think it was. I did make a concious effort to not shift like that after a few hard shifts. I think my problems were possibly a combination of many things.
I have gone over my thoughts of smaller chainrings many times already. But I dont know that was my problem for sure. I only suspect it due to the physics involved.
The other potential issue was a used derailer. Perhaps not tight enough chain tension? Plus, it did shake loose the B screw adjuster on one ride. I did fix it quite promptly after it happened during the same ride. But it may have caused damage riding it with the bad B screw setting.
Or the other issue perhaps was that the cassette was previously used. Although, it was almost brand new when i fitted it. I had only just put it on my Trek Remedy just before my vaccine heart injury stopped my riding. I know using worn cassette with new chain and vice versa can cause issues because of the existing wear changing the teeth spacing. But I dont think this was the case. The cassette was in very good condition before using on the e22.
It could have been the e13 cassette itself. They are incredibly light weight. Even lighter than a Sram XX1 eagle. It does have steel high range gears, and alloy low range gears. But perhaps the weight savings e13 achieved resulted in a less strong cassette. Or perhaps the metal was not of a particularly hard grade. It would make sense for a production item. Using a harder material would be harder on the tooling, which would eat into profits. The e13 might be all fine for manual bike use, but simply not up to the task of eMTB use.
That seems crazy low, or much lower that I was expecting. I'm easily getting 40km, with approx 1600ft of climb, from my 52v, 16.75Ah (35A continuous) battery on my BBSHD. Being lazy on some hills and gunning it on the way home, I generally get home with few bars to spare. I'm pretty sure I have the motor capped at 28A at the moment.
My (possibly stupid) assumption was that the M620 would be more efficient that the BBSHD. Obviously riding behaviour and terrain play a huge part in range, but what kind of distances are you folks getting out of your M620s? Also, any comparisons with a BBSHD, efficiency wise, would be seriously appreciated.
Cheers, I contacted Fray - polite, nice as pie, but zero interest in selling me spares as I don't have a Fray bike....I guess I need to find somebody with a Fray if I wanted to go down that route.
You can get a raceface 40T They are great!
I run 46T on all my +3000W Innotrace bikes.
With a 46T you have a lot less torque on the cassette side.
My cassettes last a lot longer.
With the Innotrace motor 8 Speed is more then enough.
Chains cassettes, deraillers and shifters are cheap in 8speed.!
The 46T I buy at Ali, available in 42T till 50T Not cheap but durable!
On a Std Bafang I usually go for a 42T-44T Raceface
Max capacity in the original case will be cells of 3500mAh
5x3.5= 17.5Ah x 48= 840Wh
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Neeko DeVinchi
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
- Thread starter
- #580
Difficult to say Kyokushin. Availability of products nowadays is becoming more prevalent.
Needless to say, I'll do my utmost to continue spreading the word of availability and distributors of the Dengfu ebike line
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
My understanding. (And I could be wrong here,) Is that they have already stopped making the UART m620. But there are some still available on the shelf at some sellers. Neeko did link a seller that had stock of UART m620s earlier in this discussion.
temon10
Well-known member
Why Dengfu not making E22 version with M510 motor?
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
They basically are. It's called the e10
temon10
Well-known member
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
Yes. But very very very similar.I have E10, it's different model mate
Both have 150mm travel.
Both have 66° head tube angle.
Both use the exact same rear triangle.
Both have the same battery mounting.
Both use the exact same linkage. (But orientated slightly differently, i will explain why.)
Both have very similar linkage driven Horst link suspension design.
Both have very similar overall wheel base lengths.
They both have very similar stack heights.
They both even have very similar aesthetics, similar lines, similar design styling.
Where they differ is the e22 has the crank axis posistion more forward in the frame. This is ofcoarse due to the different motors. The ultra is bigger, and therefore needs to be posistioned in such a way that it will actually fit, which results in the crank axis coming forward relative to the e10 - m500/m510/m600.
Because the crank axis is forward on the e22, it means the e22 has a slightly slacker effective seat tube angle. This more forward crank axis also means the e22 has a slightly longer effective chainstay length, (even though it uses the exact same rear triangle as the e10). It also means the e22 has a slightly shorter reach, again, because the crank axis is shifted forwards in the frame.
The bikes themselves are incredibly similar overall size, eg similar overall length / wheelbase, similar height, and otherwise similar geometry. All these "differences" can be simply traced back to the location of the crank axis. Which can be traced back to the size of the motor, and required packaging constraints.
The shock spec and shock location does also slightly differ on the 2 bikes. The e22 shock is connected to the top tube, and the e10 shock is connected to the down tube. But I would suggest the shock placement has been moved to the top tube on the e22 because again, the fact that the motors are different. The larger ultra motor forces the e22 downtube to be alot steeper. Because the motor is larger, the lower end of the down tube must begin much more forward relative to the bike. This possibly makes it less ideal position to connect the shock to, hence why it may be shifted to the top tube. They also would have to fit a water bottle mount, so this may have influenced the decision to alter the shock placement.
The e10 comes in 4 sizes (15", 17", 19", 21"), the e22 comes in 3 sizes (16", 18", 20"). This is most likely designed to optimise production costs. 1 Less bike size, means 1 less mould to make, which means less tooling costs, which increases return on investment. The e22 / ultra platform is also less popular than the e10 /m500/m510/m600 platform. So they would be expecting less overall sales, therefore less likely to want to invest in unnecessary frame moulds. I would suggest this is why the frame sizing numbers are like that. But if you extropolate the sizing out between the sizing jumps, you can easily see they are very much the same overall size. Only the e10 is spread across 4 sizes, and the e22 is spread across 3 sizes.
For all intensive purposes, they are the same bike, except with a different motor. And in order to fit the different motor, they would need to make the nessisary alterations to the frame.
I would bet my left testicle that dengfu took an e10, and played around with the frame in CAD until the ultra fitted. And then made that and called it an e22.
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El Topo
Member
I just got an Email back from Dengfu, in which a salesrep says that combining an E10 frame with a E23 rear end "is not okay". So I am unsure if they would even sell me an E10 frame and a E23 rear.
I haven't written back to them about it, just wanted to give some feedback here in the forums.
Neeko DeVinchi
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
- Thread starter
- #588
I like your way of thinking bram.biesiekierski
@temon10, Bram.BIesiekierski does raise a good point. And it's not uncommon for manufacturers to recycle moulds or parts off one frame to design another.
The end result can lead to a manufacturer having two platforms. But in Dengfu's case, the applications as to what both frames are capable of (throughout my testing), remains near identical for the purposes of emtb use.
I'd rather not get bogged down comparing the motors, as I would potentially fall into the trap of highlighting which motor I'm more favourable towards. (Plus, my only experience with the M500, M600 and M510 has only been on the E10 which would be unfair of me to compare as I own M620 ebikes made out of alloy and can feel the difference between a hardtail emtb M620 ebike vs full suspension mid and long travel).
My research has led me to believe that the E22 'may' have been designed first, to which the E10 followed. Dengfu haven't confirmed this to me. But I'll share my findings if I get confirmation.
Neeko DeVinchi
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
- Thread starter
- #589
I suspected Dengfu would say this.
Bare in mind, Dengfu and myself have mutually agreed that my warranty on my E10v1 due to me over-stroking it has been void.
Nevertheless, I too agree with Dengfu's decision NOT to mix and match the rear end of the E22/E10 with the E23.
Many thanks for sharing El Topo,
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
Got out for a ride on the weekend. Fun as always. But I did have a few issues with the chain coming off the chainring, happened about 4 times. This only seemed to happen when rolling over quite choppy terrain at speed. It happened when I was coasting without the motor or pedal assistance.
I think the jolty terrain is causing the chain to bounce off the top of the chainring. I am going to see about putting a chain guide on and see if that helps.
I did notice the box prime 9spd derailer has a super tight clutch mechanism. And also a quite tight spring aswell. But there is a sometimes a small amount of backlash from when the derailer clutch engages. And I believe this small backlash is enough to let the chain loosen when it's bouncing away.
I think the jolty terrain is causing the chain to bounce off the top of the chainring. I am going to see about putting a chain guide on and see if that helps.
I did notice the box prime 9spd derailer has a super tight clutch mechanism. And also a quite tight spring aswell. But there is a sometimes a small amount of backlash from when the derailer clutch engages. And I believe this small backlash is enough to let the chain loosen when it's bouncing away.
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
I am still only getting around 15kms / 1hr of full output from the battery. I'm not complaining as I ride it pretty damn hard for that 15kms.
I was trying to decide what to do, whether I build a larger capacity battery in the frame. Or just get a second battery and swap em over when needed.
I have decided to just buy another battery. I figure that will allow me to still use the original battery, which has only had half a dozen charges or so. If I put a larger battery in the frame. Its more cells to purchase. And I'm effectively wasting the battery I already own. Plus they put them inside the metal box for a reason. I think its probably a good idea to keep it that way.
I was trying to decide what to do, whether I build a larger capacity battery in the frame. Or just get a second battery and swap em over when needed.
I have decided to just buy another battery. I figure that will allow me to still use the original battery, which has only had half a dozen charges or so. If I put a larger battery in the frame. Its more cells to purchase. And I'm effectively wasting the battery I already own. Plus they put them inside the metal box for a reason. I think its probably a good idea to keep it that way.
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
So im just about to order a battery from Ding Tai Battery. They list the e10 battery, but we're unsure of the e22. But after comparing measurements and sending pics back n forth, we are confident that they can make me one.
They are going to do a 48v 17.5ah 840wh 13s5p with Samsung 3500ma 18650s with a 30a BMS. So that should be the same as my original battery, except with Samsung cells instead of LG cells.
The price is very reasonable I think. They have quoted me USD $340 including shipping to Australia. GBK list the e10/e22 battery at USD $360 for an 840wh with LG cells, and an additional USD $30 for Samsung cells. And then between USD $130 - $200 to post it depending on carrier.
They are going to do a 48v 17.5ah 840wh 13s5p with Samsung 3500ma 18650s with a 30a BMS. So that should be the same as my original battery, except with Samsung cells instead of LG cells.
The price is very reasonable I think. They have quoted me USD $340 including shipping to Australia. GBK list the e10/e22 battery at USD $360 for an 840wh with LG cells, and an additional USD $30 for Samsung cells. And then between USD $130 - $200 to post it depending on carrier.
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
The E10 and E22 use the same case. Are you dealing with Herbert? He was very helpful with my batteries. I'll be interested to see if you notice any difference between the two? I sure did going from the stock 48v 840wh to the 52v 780wh with the 40A BMS and in a positive direction.....You can be confident in their product I feel after using them now for several months. They have gotten nothing but better as time has gone on though that won't happen forever. For sure as illustrated you can't beat the price!
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
I was dealing with someone named Jodie. She was very helpful.
As far as the standard battery. I'm not dissatisfied with it. I think its doing what it says on the box. I'm just using it hard.
I get about an hour of use out of it, at which point the motor starts limiting output. The battery still has about 30% left according to the display by that time. And by the time I roll back to base its around 20% remaining.
It's an 840wh battery. The motor is a 1000w up to 1500w peaks. I obviously don't use throttle 100% of the time. But I do use it liberally at every opportunity. I gas it after every corner and down every straight. I'm also a touch over 100kgs.
So quick back of the envelope calculation and im probably using 600wh in that 1 hour of riding. And the last 200wh is what's remaining in the battery when it starts losing power.
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Mine would hit the LVC @ 43v which was annoying as usually with a 48v battery it is 41v. Pretty sure we have the same battery as that is what DengFu supplys? I get a pretty accurate reading of how many ah's/wh's are used from my Satiator charger when it is done topping off and the best I could get out of it was 760wh's. I don't deal in %'s but calculating wh/mi I figure I average like 28wh/mi. With the old battery I was getting 20 miles maybe and 2500 vert and with the 2170 cell batteries now 25 miles and 3000+ vert.
The best performance I have gotten with my same wattage M620 has been with the 52v battery even though it is only 780wh. Think I've said it on here before that it really wakes the motor up!
The best performance I have gotten with my same wattage M620 has been with the 52v battery even though it is only 780wh. Think I've said it on here before that it really wakes the motor up!
bram.biesiekierski
Active member
Yes. I was unsure about trying 52v. So I figured another 48v in the same config was a safe bet. Also, don't need extra chargers etc.
My thoughts with 52v were even if it does run on the CAN ultra. 52v would just make it a little quicker, at the expense of a little range. I don't feel I need any additional performance out of the ultra. But more range at the same performance level would be nice.
Perhaps if they figure out how to program the CAN motors, then I might make the jump upto 52v or even higher. And possibly look at making the biggest battery I can physically fit inside the down tube.
But for now, I'm happy to just swap the battery mid ride and carry on. Most of the trails I ride are kind of clumped together trail networks. Where you might get 50-100km of actual trail, but they are all centred around a 5-10km radius clump, so your never more than a short ride away from where vehicle is. That way I don't have to physically carry the battery. Just make my way back to the trail head and swap it over when needed.
CaptainBobt
New Member
Let the games begin
RAW76
New Member
Nice...what color?
So jealous, frame ETA 1-2 weeks here. Why don't you wait for my delivery and we'll have a race
May be useful to somebody:
Dengfu won't provide vinyl decals, understandably - they screen print logos as part of the manufacturing process (I was planning to use vinyl decals as a mask for my paint job). However, their logo seems to be just a string of characters using a typeface called 'Sofachrome'. So do with that what you will.
[edit - awful spelling]
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