Dengfu E22 Frame Thread

[Mabman]

Good to know. Sounds like a good opportunity to get it innotraced or archon'd, if it hasn't been already?

No thanks, bike is plenty powerful enough already and am quite happy with how it pedals/performs after some easy to accomplish adjustments with a $20 cable and free software.

 

[agro_86]

Apologies for the delay @agro_86.
The full video regarding the DZ41 display will drop tomorrow. I opted to test the CANBus version, as most new models of motors from Bafang are using CANBus protocol. As such, the display has been installed on my E10v1.
My E22 is running the UART protocol which explains why I'm able to use the 500c display.
Sadly, development of an adapter cable from UART to CANBus and vice versa is proving tricky.
View attachment 92837
Granted, the wiring schematics aren't difficult to understand. Moreso, it's the interface in terms of functions of the display which is proving to be the complex matter. But I'll spread the word of any developments.

For now (not to give anything away), this will be the display I'll use on any CANBus protocol bafang ebike.......until something better comes out

thanks for the info neeko
one other question if the canbus version cannot set wheel size how did you manage that.
did you program it from the stock display and the setting carry across
ill be using 27.5 wheels with 2.6 tyres

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

thanks for the info neeko
one other question if the canbus version cannot set wheel size how did you manage that.
did you program it from the stock display and the setting carry across
ill be using 27.5 wheels with 2.6 tyres

Apologies for the delay @agro_86.
In order to set the wheel size (or change wheel size & circumstance) on CANBus protocol motors, the besst tool is required.
I have seen examples of those who have set wheel size and top speed without the besst tool through a hack (I think a thread on Endless Sphere covered this).

The UART protocol motors can be setup (in terms of wheel size, top speed etc) via the display. The programming cable and programming tool is usually used to amend torque values, maximum current, nominal and peak output per level of assist etc.

So yes, the UART protocol motors are easier to work with to dial in the motor characteristics and power performance.

Bare with me, I'll see if I can find the thread on Endless Sphere which goes into detail about bypassing the use of the Besst tool

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Here's the link to the Endless Sphere thread @agro_86.

Bafang M500/M600 thread

I'm one of the folks with the last generation of the Luna X1 with the M600, and like many I am annoyed at the way this motor works in low PAS levels - it basically doesn't. Then at 3/5 or 5/9 you suddenly get tons of power everywhere, but a little too much, really. Maybe the torque sensor...

endless-sphere.com

Being honest, I'd personally stick with the Besst tool and getting an account with Bafang. But I can liaise with those who have used this method, to see what their experiences have been like

 

[El Topo]

Hello,

I am new here, but am ogling that E22, or rather the E23 for a while…
Thank you to all knowledgeable members for all the great info provided in this thread, especially @Neeko DeVinchi
May I still ask a few questions?

I browsed the whole thread, and tried to follow the discussion regarding alternative battery packs with 52V and/or higher Wh, but could someone please tell me the current status of these developments? I don't feel comfortable building my own soft pack to get a higher capacity.
Has anyone made a smaller smaller, lighter weight battery packs (with maybe 500Wh), that one carry as spare if one runs out of power, and doesn’t want to carry around another full size battery?

I see there are many people running the G510 or M500/600 in older frames (Bosch Gen3, etc.) with an adaptor bracket - since I don’t really need the horsepower of the G510, has anyone run a M5/600 sized motor in that frame? That new M510 looks promising and is 2,4kg lighter, and I am somewhat opposed to driving around such a heavy motor. Otherwise, the M600 also looks like a legit option with plenty of power for me.
If that is even possible, without the bike looking like an ugly hackjob, and are there fatbike cranks for the M5/600? Can you just use the same offset fatbike cranks of the G510 for the M5/600?

The most important thing for me is smooth power delivery, is the Innotrace motor really that much better in that regard? Again, I don't really need its extra power and it’s price would really hurt my wallet, but I don’t wanna sink all that money into a bike with a motor that feels significantly worse than the established motor manufacturers - again in terms of smoothness, obviously not raw power.

About the frame size, I am 172cm with a 78cm inseam with short arms as well, should I take the the M or even S?
I must say though, that I am somewhat married to a 50mm stem (foldable stem from Syntace because of my lack of space to store the bike with its wide handlebars) and 12°, maybe even 16° of backsweep for the handlebars (to avoid discomfort), so my" stem-handlebar-reach" is basically zero in the end, which leads me to believe, that the M might be the better choice.
I am basing this around the discussion before and after this post. If I go by R.A.D. my R- is 421, R is 430 and R+ is only 439, so the M's reach of 446mm for the medium seems to be on large side for me, whereas the S's reach of 420mm might be tad too short?
Please also keep in mind, when evaluating the frame size, that I will be running this with a 170mm fork (in reality a 150mm fatbike fork with a higher crown to make room for the larger tire diameter) and 27.5x4.5 tires with close to 780mm in diameter - which also begs the questions if offset bushings, to drop the bottom bracket back down, and also running an angleset, to bring the front down again, might be a good idea from the start.


Thanks for looking into all my questions, I appreciate it!

 

[Daxxie]

Good thread about the E22

Here some pics from my E23 (Fatbikeversion)

Not something I would recommend (or ever do again) but I managed to squeeze 14S5P 21700 Molicells in that frame.
The +3000W Innotrace motor needs quite some power.

Had to close the holes (on/off and battery lock) in the frame.

26 or 27.5?

I had the frame and rims ceramic coated. (Cerakote)

Don't like cables so used a Rotwild handlebar with special grooves for hiding the cables. (Pics of my previous build)

X1 display and left thumb throttle

Magura MT5, dropper remote, throttle, X1 display

Just wanted to give these slicks a try but the ride was horrible

Looks and handles so much better with 27.5 Fat wheels.

 

[Mabman]

Nicely done but hope you added some chain stay protection by now.

 

[Daxxie]

Nicely done but hope you added some chain stay protection by now.

Thanks. I switched to a 46T chainring which gives more clearance.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Finally got some time to go for a ride on the e22. This was only my 3rd proper ride on the bike. It was also my first ride with the new 9spd setup. The Box Prime level 2 performed perfectly. It took the power without issue. It didn't skip or slip. There were no clunks when shifting. It even shifted brilliantly under level 3 peddle assist power.

Did a loop of Kalamunda, mostly mild trail riding. Not massive elevations, or super difficult terrain.

Wasnt really going to gung ho, as im still getting back into riding after my injury. But still managed 3x STRAVA top tens.

Check out my activity on Strava: https://strava.app.link/5n5CZqT4Urb

 

[El Topo]

View attachment 85241
Both frames are using the exact same rear ends, linkage and yoke.
View attachment 85242
This means that regardless of which frame you buy/build up, they both use the same:-
...

Does this actually mean, that one could combine the E10 frame with the fat 197mm rear end of the E23?

 

[RAW76]

Finally got some time to go for a ride on the e22. This was only my 3rd proper ride on the bike. It was also my first ride with the new 9spd setup. The Box Prime level 2 performed perfectly. It took the power without issue. It didn't skip or slip. There were no clunks when shifting. It even shifted brilliantly under level 3 peddle assist power.

Did a loop of Kalamunda, mostly mild trail riding. Not massive elevations, or super difficult terrain.

Wasnt really going to gung ho, as im still getting back into riding after my injury. But still managed 3x STRAVA top tens.
View attachment 93079


Check out my activity on Strava: https://strava.app.link/5n5CZqT4Urb

View attachment 93076

View attachment 93077

Your e22 is a beast.. how much did you end up spending for the build?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Does this actually mean, that one could combine the E10 frame with the fat 197mm rear end of the E23?

Good question
I don't have an E23 to hand to verify this. However,

the seat stays protrude to allow for the bigger wheel on the E23.

Compared to the E22,

Or E10.

Whilst I suspect that you could 'technically' swap an E10's rear end and replace it with an E23's, the real issue would be the chain line.

From what I understand, the M500, M600 and M510 are specifically Bafang's emtb motors. So I suspect that they wont be issuing a fat bike spider to compensate for 197mm hub spacing.

The M620 does have a fatbike spider and Christini Bicycles even makes a 104bcd fatbike spider as well.

In other words, yes. You can 'in theory' swap the rear sections. BUT you'll encounter problems with the chain line for the M500, M600 and M510.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hello,

I am new here, but am ogling that E22, or rather the E23 for a while…
Thank you to all knowledgeable members for all the great info provided in this thread, especially @Neeko DeVinchi
May I still ask a few questions?

I browsed the whole thread, and tried to follow the discussion regarding alternative battery packs with 52V and/or higher Wh, but could someone please tell me the current status of these developments? I don't feel comfortable building my own soft pack to get a higher capacity.
Has anyone made a smaller smaller, lighter weight battery packs (with maybe 500Wh), that one carry as spare if one runs out of power, and doesn’t want to carry around another full size battery?

I see there are many people running the G510 or M500/600 in older frames (Bosch Gen3, etc.) with an adaptor bracket - since I don’t really need the horsepower of the G510, has anyone run a M5/600 sized motor in that frame? That new M510 looks promising and is 2,4kg lighter, and I am somewhat opposed to driving around such a heavy motor. Otherwise, the M600 also looks like a legit option with plenty of power for me.
If that is even possible, without the bike looking like an ugly hackjob, and are there fatbike cranks for the M5/600? Can you just use the same offset fatbike cranks of the G510 for the M5/600?

The most important thing for me is smooth power delivery, is the Innotrace motor really that much better in that regard? Again, I don't really need its extra power and it’s price would really hurt my wallet, but I don’t wanna sink all that money into a bike with a motor that feels significantly worse than the established motor manufacturers - again in terms of smoothness, obviously not raw power.

About the frame size, I am 172cm with a 78cm inseam with short arms as well, should I take the the M or even S?
I must say though, that I am somewhat married to a 50mm stem (foldable stem from Syntace because of my lack of space to store the bike with its wide handlebars) and 12°, maybe even 16° of backsweep for the handlebars (to avoid discomfort), so my" stem-handlebar-reach" is basically zero in the end, which leads me to believe, that the M might be the better choice.
I am basing this around the discussion before and after this post. If I go by R.A.D. my R- is 421, R is 430 and R+ is only 439, so the M's reach of 446mm for the medium seems to be on large side for me, whereas the S's reach of 420mm might be tad too short?
Please also keep in mind, when evaluating the frame size, that I will be running this with a 170mm fork (in reality a 150mm fatbike fork with a higher crown to make room for the larger tire diameter) and 27.5x4.5 tires with close to 780mm in diameter - which also begs the questions if offset bushings, to drop the bottom bracket back down, and also running an angleset, to bring the front down again, might be a good idea from the start.


Thanks for looking into all my questions, I appreciate it!

Sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your first post @El Topo.

In answer to your first question, contact Anna from GBK (Green Bike Kits) as they do have 52v batteries for the Dengfu E10/E22/E23 @ [email protected]
GBK build their own batteries in accordance with your desired specifications and give you the choice of what cells to choose from.
The smallest capacity battery would be the 720wh (48v15amp). Unfortunately, I don't know the weight of that battery.

In answer to your second question, I haven't seen any examples of the M500/M600/M510 motors being used on fatbike specific ebike frames. So unfortunately, I can't comment as to how easy it would be to adapt the M500/M600/M510. But I'll keep my eyes peeled for examples and see if I can make enquiries.

As for your third question, the M620 has been often revered as a 'brutish motor with uncontrollable power'. But this couldn't be further from the truth. The M620 motor (regardless of UART or CANBus), responds better than the M500/M600/M510 in terms of cadence, torque and power delivery. Granted, the sampling rate of the M500/M600/M510 is greater than the M620 (UART variants). However, Bafang (in my opinion) has yet to have truly tapped into the potential of having those motors exceed the M620 in terms of performance. In addition, the UART variants are more easier to program. I myself, have programmed the M620 where it only achieves 750w peak output in the highest level of assist but retains a EU 250w nominal output. Coupled with the 104bcd spider adapter from Christini Bicycles, my Dengfu E22 feels and rides more emtb than 'motorcycle'. But that's not to say that M620 motor (in its default settings) isn't uncontrollable.

Lastly, I suspect you'd feel at home on a medium. @bram.biesiekierski has built a medium E22 and has nicely documented his build and shared it on the thread. Contact points and touch up points are personal to each rider. So I'd rather not 'recommend' a stem length or handlebar width/height/sweep. I myself run 820mm handlebars because I find them more comfortable.

The majority of us have spec'd our E22s with 170mm travel forks. I am running a 2° angle headset, as I have over-forked the E22.

Whilst my 29er E22 is running a 2021 Fox 36 170mm, the actual stanchion length measures at 180mm. So my combination of over-forking and the use of the angle headset has somewhat worked to my advantage in terms of my overall build. Ofset bushes could be useful to amend the geometry as well. However, it would be difficult to determine how best to proceed with your intended fatbike build. I'll ponder this and let you know if anything comes to mind. But I am reminded that fatbikes (from my experience) have tended to not handle as gracefully compared to 27.5+ or 29ers with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches. But I'll gladly give this some thought and liaise with E23 owners to find out what their experiences have been like.

Please don't hesitate to reach out to any of us and once again, apologies for the delay

 

[Mabman]

@Neeko DeVinchi "with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches"

Where I live there are many miles of open beach. Along with logging roads and native single track I tend to ride alot of it. Just got to time the tide and let it rip up the dark sand. Out into the headwind and back with the tail works the best. So any bike I have has to be able to handle it.


My latest beach bike:

My other beach bike:

Both are totally effective for ebbing tide adventures. Riding on the dark sand is no problem even with 40c tires. Getting to the dark sand depending on the time of year through the light sand can be a push but a little throttle walk assisting helps and is painless. Who doesn't enjoy a walk on the beach? Would a fat bike be able to ride the 50-75'? Probably but I bet it wouldn't be in a straight line.

It is not like if you have a Fat bike you will just ride in the light sand all the time because it takes alot of energy to do so over dark sand. I know they are a thing but my trials years ago led me to believe they weren't for me and as Neeko suggests they can tend to not be as nimble as a lesser volume tyre. And certainly well beyond what I would consider for an any road type bike like above. Not saying that fat bikes are not a thing, just not mine.

While I am waiting for my E22 motor back it will make a nice diversion I suppose and the weather here demands riding!

 

[mtnwolf]

@Mabman is correct. Progress by myself and fellow fanatic bafang users Is slow.

To put context to our perdicament, I'll share some images which highlights differences between the UART M620 & CANBus M620
View attachment 92889
View attachment 92890 ]

 

[mtnwolf]

@Neeko DeVinchi. I just got my E23 and G510. I noticed your post that the CAN-bus G510 has a 4 pin speed sensor connector. I ordered a UART version, so did I get the Canbus verson instead? The E23 harness only has three cables. Power, Power switch and charging port. No data cable. So if I have a CAN-bus G510 do you think it will work with my E23 frame and 48v battery?

 

[El Topo]

Thank you for the thorough reply, no need to apologise, I really appreciate you taking the time to start and maintain this resourceful thread!

Whilst I suspect that you could 'technically' swap an E10's rear end and replace it with an E23's, the real issue would be the chain line.
...
The M620 does have a fatbike spider and Christini Bicycles even makes a 104bcd fatbike spider as well.

In other words, yes. You can 'in theory' swap the rear sections. BUT you'll encounter problems with the chain line for the M500, M600 and M510.

Can't you just use the fatbike spider from Bafang/Christini with the M5/600 series of motors? The Miranda cranks should clear the wider chainstays if I am not mistaken, according to this post (see specifically "DBC").
I wasn't able to find much, but a Chinese website apparently sells this spider as compatible with all of Bafang's MTB motors, that is why I would assume the fatbike spider also fits onto the M5x0/M600.

In answer to your first question, contact Anna from GBK (Green Bike Kits) as they do have 52v batteries for the Dengfu E10/E22/E23 @ [email protected]
GBK build their own batteries in accordance with your desired specifications and give you the choice of what cells to choose from.
The smallest capacity battery would be the 720wh (48v15amp). Unfortunately, I don't know the weight of that battery.

Thank you for the contact. I will look into it.

In answer to your second question, I haven't seen any examples of the M500/M600/M510 motors being used on fatbike specific ebike frames. So unfortunately, I can't comment as to how easy it would be to adapt the M500/M600/M510. But I'll keep my eyes peeled for examples and see if I can make enquiries.

There is a guy in a German forum selling Adapter plates specifically for mounting M5x0/M600 motors into M620 frames but I haven't seen any real-life examples of it.
I also just invited him to post on this forum about his adaptor plates.

As for your third question, the M620 has been often revered as a 'brutish motor with uncontrollable power'. But this couldn't be further from the truth. The M620 motor (regardless of UART or CANBus), responds better than the M500/M600/M510 in terms of cadence, torque and power delivery. Granted, the sampling rate of the M500/M600/M510 is greater than the M620 (UART variants). However, Bafang (in my opinion) has yet to have truly tapped into the potential of having those motors exceed the M620 in terms of performance. In addition, the UART variants are more easier to program. I myself, have programmed the M620 where it only achieves 750w peak output in the highest level of assist but retains a EU 250w nominal output. Coupled with the 104bcd spider adapter from Christini Bicycles, my Dengfu E22 feels and rides more emtb than 'motorcycle'. But that's not to say that M620 motor (in its default settings) isn't uncontrollable.

Deciding on a motor you haven't ridden, and that you can hardly test ride anywhere, is always tough, you read so many different opinions. What I can tell you is that even Bosch Gen3 didn't feel right to me in terms of "naturalness". Only the Gen4 feels okay to me, but just in terms of how natural and agile it feels when pedaling, I would still prefer a Brose or Shimano EP8(000) over it.
Generally, I would like to avoid the extra 2.5kg the M620 weighs over a M510 (assuming the firmware situation with it gets sorted out...), as I don't expect to want the extra power the M620 would provide to me anyway. These bikes are already heavy enough as they are! I would love to have a >20kg Ebike.

Lastly, I suspect you'd feel at home on a medium. @bram.biesiekierski has built a medium E22 and has nicely documented his build and shared it on the thread. Contact points and touch up points are personal to each rider. So I'd rather not 'recommend' a stem length or handlebar width/height/sweep. I myself run 820mm handlebars because I find them more comfortable.

Thanks for commenting on the sizing question, 820mm handlebars are way to wide for my short arms, but you got almost 15cm in height (and therefore armlength) on me, haha!
@bram.biesiekierski, what is your height and inseam, if I may ask?

The majority of us have spec'd our E22s with 170mm travel forks. I am running a 2° angle headset, as I have over-forked the E22.
View attachment 93134
Whilst my 29er E22 is running a 2021 Fox 36 170mm, the actual stanchion length measures at 180mm. So my combination of over-forking and the use of the angle headset has somewhat worked to my advantage in terms of my overall build. Ofset bushes could be useful to amend the geometry as well. However, it would be difficult to determine how best to proceed with your intended fatbike build. I'll ponder this and let you know if anything comes to mind. But I am reminded that fatbikes (from my experience) have tended to not handle as gracefully compared to 27.5+ or 29ers with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches. But I'll gladly give this some thought and liaise with E23 owners to find out what their experiences have been like.

What is your BB height with the 29" wheels? You wrote in this post that you only have 330mm with 27.5x2.6, which should be around 710mm in diameter, so with my 27.5x4.5, that measure close 780mm, I would expect the BB to be around 25-30mm higher - if you factor in that the fat tires are run at a much lower pressure, effectively reducing the BB again a bit.
That I why I thought about lowering the BB again a bit with offset bushings, especially given my short legs, making the higher BB more noticeable than with your long legs. If possible I would run 160mm Miranda cranks, maybe even shorter, depending on how that feels to me.

Please don't hesitate to reach out to any of us and once again, apologies for the delay

Thanks again for replying in such detail!

 

[El Topo]

But I am reminded that fatbikes (from my experience) have tended to not handle as gracefully compared to 27.5+ or 29ers with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches.

@Neeko DeVinchi "with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches"Would a fat bike be able to ride the 50-75'? Probably but I bet it wouldn't be in a straight line.

It is not like if you have a Fat bike you will just ride in the light sand all the time because it takes alot of energy to do so over dark sand. I know they are a thing but my trials years ago led me to believe they weren't for me and as Neeko suggests they can tend to not be as nimble as a lesser volume tyre. And certainly well beyond what I would consider for an any road type bike like above. Not saying that fat bikes are not a thing, just not mine.

I just like how a fat bike rides, that is all. Though, once I have hopefully finished the E23 build, I want to get a second 29" wheel set on a 197mm hub, that I can quickly switch to, whenever I feel like a more agile setup.

This way, I can have the best of both worlds.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

@Neeko DeVinchi. I just got my E23 and G510. I noticed your post that the CAN-bus G510 has a 4 pin speed sensor connector. I ordered a UART version, so did I get the Canbus verson instead? The E23 harness only has three cables. Power, Power switch and charging port. No data cable. So if I have a CAN-bus G510 do you think it will work with my E23 frame and 48v battery? View attachment 93150 View attachment 93151 View attachment 93152

Your M620 looks like the UART version to me

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

@Neeko DeVinchi "with the exception of sandy terrain/beaches"

Where I live there are many miles of open beach. Along with logging roads and native single track I tend to ride alot of it. Just got to time the tide and let it rip up the dark sand. Out into the headwind and back with the tail works the best. So any bike I have has to be able to handle it.


My latest beach bike:


View attachment 93135

My other beach bike:

View attachment 93136

Both are totally effective for ebbing tide adventures. Riding on the dark sand is no problem even with 40c tires. Getting to the dark sand depending on the time of year through the light sand can be a push but a little throttle walk assisting helps and is painless. Who doesn't enjoy a walk on the beach? Would a fat bike be able to ride the 50-75'? Probably but I bet it wouldn't be in a straight line.

It is not like if you have a Fat bike you will just ride in the light sand all the time because it takes alot of energy to do so over dark sand. I know they are a thing but my trials years ago led me to believe they weren't for me and as Neeko suggests they can tend to not be as nimble as a lesser volume tyre. And certainly well beyond what I would consider for an any road type bike like above. Not saying that fat bikes are not a thing, just not mine.

While I am waiting for my E22 motor back it will make a nice diversion I suppose and the weather here demands riding!

I thought fat bikes were primarily designed for snow?

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Your e22 is a beast.. how much did you end up spending for the build?

I think it was about AUD $6500. (USD $4500, Euro €4400, GBP £3800) Which not too bad considering a base model alloy frame Trek Rail is AUD $7500.

It was more than I had wanted to spend going into the build. I was thinking more like 4-5k, but using alot more spare second hand parts. I was originally going to swap everything over from my manual bike, and only buy the frame/motor/battery, plus essential items. But as I got into it, I decided to buy the extra components needed to keep my manual bike complete aswell.

I did still use alot of existing spare parts aswell. If I had of bought everything brand new, then easy of AUD $8000.

I already had spare :
Dropper post
Saddle
Rear brakes
Rear wheel
Stem
Bars
Grips
Peddles

I bought new :
Front brakes
Post mount adapters
Shock (and Springs)
Fork (and springs)
Front wheel
Front tyre
Dropper remote
9spd groupset
Cranks
Shifter cable housing
Brake hose
Paint the frame
Other misc stuff like tools for this bike

Chain, chainring and 104 adapter (not used now)

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Thank you for the thorough reply, no need to apologise, I really appreciate you taking the time to start and maintain this resourceful thread!

Can't you just use the fatbike spider from Bafang/Christini with the M5/600 series of motors? The Miranda cranks should clear the wider chainstays if I am not mistaken, according to this post (see specifically "DBC").
I wasn't able to find much, but a Chinese website apparently sells this spider as compatible with all of Bafang's MTB motors, that is why I would assume the fatbike spider also fits onto the M5x0/M600.


Thank you for the contact. I will look into it.

There is a guy in a German forum selling Adapter plates specifically for mounting M5x0/M600 motors into M620 frames but I haven't seen any real-life examples of it.
I also just invited him to post on this forum about his adaptor plates.

Deciding on a motor you haven't ridden, and that you can hardly test ride anywhere, is always tough, you read so many different opinions. What I can tell you is that even Bosch Gen3 didn't feel right to me in terms of "naturalness". Only the Gen4 feels okay to me, but just in terms of how natural and agile it feels when pedaling, I would still prefer a Brose or Shimano EP8(000) over it.
Generally, I would like to avoid the extra 2.5kg the M620 weighs over a M510 (assuming the firmware situation with it gets sorted out...), as I don't expect to want the extra power the M620 would provide to me anyway. These bikes are already heavy enough as they are! I would love to have a >20kg Ebike.

Thanks for commenting on the sizing question, 820mm handlebars are way to wide for my short arms, but you got almost 15cm in height (and therefore armlength) on me, haha!
@bram.biesiekierski, what is your height and inseam, if I may ask?

What is your BB height with the 29" wheels? You wrote in this post that you only have 330mm with 27.5x2.6, which should be around 710mm in diameter, so with my 27.5x4.5, that measure close 780mm, I would expect the BB to be around 25-30mm higher - if you factor in that the fat tires are run at a much lower pressure, effectively reducing the BB again a bit.
That I why I thought about lowering the BB again a bit with offset bushings, especially given my short legs, making the higher BB more noticeable than with your long legs. If possible I would run 160mm Miranda cranks, maybe even shorter, depending on how that feels to me.

Thanks again for replying in such detail!

Im 183cm. I don't know my inseam off top of my head. But my legs are kind of short for my height I think.

Im very happy with size large. I feel that it's a good fit for me. I have a 150mm dropper, and I think I could probably get a 175 or so as max. But it's not like you really need to get max height for peddaling when you have the ultra backing you up.

I did make some comments earlier about my preferences for sizing.

 

[Mabman]

I thought fat bikes were primarily designed for snow?

The first 4.0 tire specific rims were made by Ray Melino for use in the desert of Mexico. Early Alaska riders saw them and adopted them for snow use. Back then there were even efforts made that combined two rims. The one below went from Anchorage to Nome during an Iditibike 20yrs ago in fact.

Don't get me wrong there is alot of fun to be had on fat bikes, I'm just not the target audience.

 

[Cruz E Bikes]

Hi All,
New to this forum, been researching self builds for a while now and have been following Rob's and Neeko's Dengfu exploits, I'm just in the process of ordering all my componenets for two builds, an E10 15" and an E22 18", loving all the info on the builds on here it really is quite impressive and inspiring.
I will post more details on my builds once I've finalised everything, but I have one question that I can't seem to get an answer to. I know what size the shocks need to be, but what are the widths on the actual bike frames for the shock bushings to fit between, I believe both the E10 & E22 are the same sizes

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Hi All,
New to this forum, been researching self builds for a while now and have been following Rob's and Neeko's Dengfu exploits, I'm just in the process of ordering all my componenets for two builds, an E10 15" and an E22 18", loving all the info on the builds on here it really is quite impressive and inspiring.
I will post more details on my builds once I've finalised everything, but I have one question that I can't seem to get an answer to. I know what size the shocks need to be, but what are the widths on the actual bike frames for the shock bushings to fit between, I believe both the E10 & E22 are the same sizes

View attachment 93184

Hi.

I have attached the technical drawings of the Dengfu OEM shock hardware. The 2 attachments should have all the critical measurements, and tolerances you need.

The drawings show one half of the arrangement for each end. So you need 2 of each piece to make a set. I personally don't like that style of hardware. I much prefer a one piece through tube, preferably made of hard steel. And then the required spacers for each side. Much less chance of bending in my opinion.

This will fit with "standard" eye mount shocks. If you have Fox, Marzocchi or similar, then they usually come with bushing that have an extra flange that adds width. So you will need to adjust accordingly.

 

[Cruz E Bikes]

Hi.

I have attached the technical drawings of the Dengfu OEM shock hardware. The 2 attachments should have all the critical measurements, and tolerances you need.

The drawings show one half of the arrangement for each end. So you need 2 of each piece to make a set. I personally don't like that style of hardware. I much prefer a one piece through tube, preferably made of hard steel. And then the required spacers for each side. Much less chance of bending in my opinion.

This will fit with "standard" eye mount shocks. If you have Fox, Marzocchi or similar, then they usually come with bushing that have an extra flange that adds width. So you will need to adjust accordingly.

Hi Bram,
Thanks for that, the supplier who i'm getting the Suntour Triair 3CR shocks from are also supplying the bushings, and they need to know the mounting width, so does this mean if I multiply the length of bushings x 2, this will give me the mounting width?

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Hi Bram,
Thanks for that, the supplier who i'm getting the Suntour Triair 3CR shocks from are also supplying the bushings, and they need to know the mounting width, so does this mean if I multiply the length of bushings x 2, this will give me the mounting width?

Yes

 

[Daxxie]

@Neeko DeVinchi. I just got my E23 and G510. I noticed your post that the CAN-bus G510 has a 4 pin speed sensor connector. I ordered a UART version, so did I get the Canbus verson instead? The E23 harness only has three cables. Power, Power switch and charging port. No data cable. So if I have a CAN-bus G510 do you think it will work with my E23 frame and 48v battery? View attachment 93150

That's a CANBUS motor and yes it will work with a 48V battery.

Sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your first post @El Topo.

In answer to your first question, contact Anna from GBK (Green Bike Kits) as they do have 52v batteries for the Dengfu E10/E22/E23 @ [email protected]
GBK build their own batteries ....

I like GBK, I have ordered from them many times.
But their batteries were of poor quality.
They may have gotten better now, but I would thoroughly inspect any battery that comes from them.
Poor workmanship and dangerous!

Does this actually mean, that one could combine the E10 frame with the fat 197mm rear end of the E23?

Yes you can! You can order both from Dengfu but as Neeko said you will need a custom made Spider for the M500/600
Chainline of a std Ultra M500/600 is at 48mm from frame centre.
Fatbike spider version is 70mm from frame centre.
Bigger problem will be cranks.You won't find any that will clear the frame.

 

[El Topo]

Thank you all for the replies. They do really help to come to a more educated decision! I am on a limited budget, so I can't really afford to buy parts (battery, motor, cranks, spider, etc.), that I then won't use, because it doesn't workout for me.

Im 183cm. I don't know my inseam off top of my head. But my legs are kind of short for my height I think.

Im very happy with size large. I feel that it's a good fit for me. I have a 150mm dropper, and I think I could probably get a 175 or so as max. But it's not like you really need to get max height for peddaling when you have the ultra backing you up.

I did make some comments earlier about my preferences for sizing.

Thanks, I would wish I could ride an S and M one after another, but with these frames that is a pipe dream, so thoroughly looking into the sizing question is all I can do, to not waste money on the wrong frame. but yes, so far I am also leaning towards an M sized frame.

I like GBK, I have ordered from them many times.
But their batteries were of poor quality.
They may have gotten better now, but I would thoroughly inspect any battery that comes from them.
Poor workmanship and dangerous!

Thanks, can you comment of the quality of Dengfu's batteries?
Is there another battery seller you would recommend?

What is the max Wh one can fit within the original battery case, 820Wh? Which cells would that be? How much amps could that pack deliver then if using quality cells? I like the convenience and servicability of the stock battery pack, but on the other hand, I might want a higher capacity than "only" 800Wh, if the bike is so heavy already anyway.
Are there sellers for custom (quality) softpacks that one could put into an unaltered (no dremeling or epoxy) frame? What capacity would I have to expect with the shorter downtube of an M frame?

On a sidenote, is there a limit on the watts a light is allowed to draw? I am looking for something like the Lupine SL X with 2100 lumens and 30W, is it possible to hook that into the standard (UART) motor controller, or do I need to involve any trickery?
Is it possible to have a break light without E-brakes like the MT5 estop, which many don't seem to be a fan of, because of the abrupt motor cut off they cause? Via something like a acceleration sensor, or something like that?!

Yes you can! You can order both from Dengfu but as Neeko said you will need a custom made Spider for the M500/600
Chainline of a std Ultra M500/600 is at 48mm from frame centre.
Fatbike spider version is 70mm from frame centre.
Bigger problem will be cranks.You won't find any that will clear the frame.

View attachment 93203

Thanks, I got a reply from the German forum member, that sells the adapter plates, he says that the fatbike spider of the M620 will fit onto the M5x0/M600. Is the crank mount a different one between these two motor series? If no, the Bafang fatbike cranks and maybe also the ones from Miranda (which are shorter and have a lesser Q-factor) will fit as well.
I will keep an eye on the M510, if the firmware issues get sorted out and bolting it onto the E23 works, that may be an interesting candidate, with only 2.9kg and plenty of power for what I intend to use the bike for, otherwise the 5.3kg M620 (perhaps Innotraced) would be my next choice, as the M600 with its 3.9kg just sits inbetween all chairs.

@Neeko DeVinchi, could you point me to a post of yours where you explain in detail how to tune the M620 UART, please? I am sure you posted it somewhere in this thread, but am really lost with all the options (BESST Tool, USB cable, etc.). From what you wrote, your "street legal", low power tuning seems pretty much what I am looking for.
How do I know which variant of the M620 I am buying, I think it was you who wrote that they even vary in weight?
What place apart from GBK can I buy a UART variant of the M620?

Is there a way to have unlock the M620 with your setup on the road (as in no laptop needed) by pressing a combination of buttons on the remote?? I want to have a street legal bike, but also would like the option to run in unlocked when on private property.

 

[mtnwolf]

Your M620 looks like the UART version to me

Thanks for your reply. I plan to test connect soon to see if it will all run together.