CHEEB V2 Build Thread

[Coolcmsc]

Any suggestions which Shimano rims I can use on the E10?

If you’re building all new, best you can afford with Shimano. If not, put old wheels on the CHEEB and buy something special for the analogue those wheels should come from.

But, returning to your question, you’ll mainly be getting weight reduction the more you spend on Shimano and remember that whatever you buy, go tubeless, even if that’s ghettoed. And the value of loosing a few grams on an E10 is mute (on any e-bike). That’s why even quite expensive manufacturer builds often stick at XT for things like chain-sets and brakes.

What I’m really moving towards here is saying I’d focus on hubs before rims for an E10 Build.

And, I’m really puzzled as to why it’s Shimano brand for the rims on an E10?

 

[markvanhaze77]

Thanks for the advice. Well basically I don't want to spend 400 gbp on wheels. Shimano seems to be half and personally, I couldn't care less about the weight. Anything I build now will be miles better than my current DIY 27kg but that's on 27.5 so I want to get 29 on a budget.

 

[thaeber]

Shimano XT WH-M8100/8120

 

[Funfunfun]

Hi All, I got the frame, carbon wheels and handlebars from the defang factory. So far is holding up. M600 motor is fantastic and certainly has a good kick. Got KOM today so certainly capable. Mine is a mullet and based on the Cheeb v1 except with Fox 38, x2 and Fox dropper. The weight is 25.9KG but does not seem heavy riding it. The battery range is incredible and I no longer have battery anxiety . Live in Sydney so have amazing trails to play with.

 

[Dirtnvert]

Hi All, I got the frame, carbon wheels and handlebars from the defang factory. So far is holding up. M600 motor is fantastic and certainly has a good kick. Got KOM today so certainly capable. Mine is a mullet and based on the Cheeb v1 except with Fox 38, x2 and Fox dropper. The weight is 25.9KG but does not seem heavy riding it. The battery range is incredible and I no longer have battery anxiety . Live in Sydney so have amazing trails to play with.

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Sweet looking ride man. Veey nice build. Im ok with that weight . What casings do the maxxis have? Anu tire liners?what is the battery size?

 

[Funfunfun]

Sweet looking ride man. Veey nice build. Im ok with that weight . What casings do the maxxis have? Anu tire liners?what is the battery size?

840WH battery, Have Maxxis 29'DHF & 27.5'DHR (very good). Setup as tubeless and has amazing grip. Love the slack position (like a mondraker) and is very agile through the corner and eats rock gardens and down hill for breakfast! -> super happy

 

[Funfunfun]

Frame arrived and pre painted by the factory

@Rob, How much was the frame with the paint job?

 

[savas]

I wrote in the other section with the firmware,but the topic there is about customer firmware, so i will post here.Before i did a short run with status 68% and was not impressed at all from the battery life.I have a 38t chainring and 42 casette.
So this sunday i charged the battery full and did 900 HM climbing at the battery was at 70%-which really good.I am not in good form and had mode 3 of assistance during the climbing.But guys this bike is crazy,thx to the geometry the wheel on the really steep tarrain doesn't go up.I have some sections which are really steep.Before with Kenevo and Mondraker Panzer R i was not able to climb them because the front wheel goes up all the time.Right now no problems.
My motor firmware is old, i do not like it much,because it is not so sensitive like bosch or brose.Soon i will get besst tool and 32t chainring and 52 casette and will do the changes.Also i will make a smaller battery around 500wh so that i havethe battery around 2kg and the bike around 22,5kg.

 

[Dirtnvert]

840WH battery, Have Maxxis 29'DHF & 27.5'DHR (very good). Setup as tubeless and has amazing grip. Love the slack position (like a mondraker) and is very agile through the corner and eats rock gardens and down hill for breakfast! -> super happy

Great! I was wondering the casing. Are they dh casing, double down or exo+? I guess you dont have inserts/tire liners in them , by your response.
That info will give a better idea of the weight. For instance, if the maxxis dhf/dhr are exo casing and no inserts in the tires and someone likes their dhf/dhr to have full dh casings a d tire liners that will be another 3lbs(1.4kg)on to the weight of the bike. The 25.6kg bike will now be 27kg

 

[Funfunfun]

Great! I was wondering the casing. Are they dh casing, double down or exo+? I guess you dont have inserts/tire liners in them , by your response.
That info will give a better idea of the weight. For instance, if the maxxis dhf/dhr are exo casing and no inserts in the tires and someone likes their dhf/dhr to have full dh casings a d tire liners that will be another 3lbs onto the weight of the bike

EXO+ and as you suggested no tire liners - hope that helps...just realised they are maxxis 2 DHF/DHR

 

[Dirtnvert]

EXO+ and as you suggested no tire liners - hope that helps...just realised they are maxxis 2 DHF/DHR

Exo+, copy that. Thanks. Beauty build buddeh. Have fun on that fine whip eh

 

[AlexRus]

Any suggestions which Shimano rims I can use on the E10?

the best shimano rims are dt sswiss

 

[Coolcmsc]

the best shimano rims are dt sswiss

Well that’s what I was trying to say earlier with the addition that the best Shimano hubs are also DTSwiss (370 if your not bothered about the pick-up) ???

 

[Sunburntwily]

I am curious how the modified m600S engine, which is mounted in the Elife X and has EU approvals, works​

The power of any electric motor is simply current times voltage. If you program the controller to give 48 volts at 5 amp's you have a 240w motor. Most of the early emtb's sold as 250w bikes in the eu where actually 750w emtbs sold in the USA. They simply reprogrammed them. The real question is why have different size motors if all you need to do is reprogram them. Not sure myself but I think a 250w motor designed to run at 250w may be more efficient on the battery and lignter. Having said that a lot of main stream bikes can be retrofitted with an after market speedbox giving them 60ks assisted. The M600 re-programmed as a 250w would be very difficult to modify without the BESST tool. And even then only certain passwords will alloy certain changes. All these figures are nominal of course. The power required to climb a hill will peak at 350 or even 400w as the motor tries to meet the demand. What I don't understand is if a emtb is restricted to assist upto 25kph what difference does it make if the motor is 500w or even 1000w. Anyway if you can get Elfite bikes to program your m600 that might be an option.

 

[ornias]

The power of any electric motor is simply current times voltage. If you program the controller to give 48 volts at 5 amp's you have a 240w motor. Most of the early emtb's sold as 250w bikes in the eu where actually 750w emtbs sold in the USA. They simply reprogrammed them. The real question is why have different size motors if all you need to do is reprogram them. Not sure myself but I think a 250w motor designed to run at 250w may be more efficient on the battery and lignter.

If you have no idea what you are actually talking about yourself, then just dont try to explain it to other people.

The EU law calls for a max of 250w "nominal rated power", how the nominal output needs to be calculated for a rating is defined in EN15194:2017, which forwards to IEC 60034-1.

In short the factory defines a maximum safe temperature threshhold and the nominal rated power, is the power at which a temperature equilibrium forms, below the max safe temperature treshhold.

While there are certainly wait to cheat these metrics (and those are actually used by some manufacturers), the limit is clearly described as requiring to be hardware based, based on said equilibrium temperature.

That also answers your question why different motor sizes are needed: Because you cannot comply to law and standards by simply reprogramming.

Having said that a lot of main stream bikes can be retrofitted with an after market speedbox giving them 60ks assisted.

Unlocked assistence speed and wattage are not related in firmware really.

The M600 re-programmed as a 250w would be very difficult to modify without the BESST tool.

you cannot simply reprogram it to recertify (well not to a 50% decrease anyway), see above. And even so: it wouldn't be harder or easier to edit even if you could.

And even then only certain passwords will alloy certain changes.

Nope, we already bypassed those issues a long time ago and unlocked all factory settings available. However: m500 and m600, have firmwares that simply block most changes. Although we have managed to increase current limits for both the m500 and m600 by reverse enginering some parts of the firmware.

All these figures are nominal of course. The power required to climb a hill will peak at 350 or even 400w as the motor tries to meet the demand.

Make that 500-900 watt peak actually, depending on the motor.

What I don't understand is if a emtb is restricted to assist upto 25kph what difference does it make if the motor is 500w or even 1000w.

The only reason isn cycle lobbyists really. They lobbied about ebikes "taking off" too fast from a stop, which is total BS, because they could just limit the acceleration instead.
Though the EU is looking into redesigning those legal limits and LEVA-EU is having success lobbying for more flexible limits, mostly because the amount of needed power depends a lot on the bike and thus there is no "one size fits all bikes" power limit anyway.

Anyway if you can get Elfite bikes to program your m600 that might be an option.

Only way would be to get them to send you the hardware and compare the m600 with the m600s. Actually even some pictures might be enough to reverse engineer the changes required to make an m600s from the m600.

 

[Sunburntwily]

If you have no idea what you are actually talking about yourself, then just dont try to explain it to other people.

The EU law calls for a max of 250w "nominal rated power", how the nominal output needs to be calculated for a rating is defined in EN15194:2017, which forwards to IEC 60034-1.

In short the factory defines a maximum safe temperature threshhold and the nominal rated power, is the power at which a temperature equilibrium forms, below the max safe temperature treshhold.

While there are certainly wait to cheat these metrics (and those are actually used by some manufacturers), the limit is clearly described as requiring to be hardware based, based on said equilibrium temperature.

That also answers your question why different motor sizes are needed: Because you cannot comply to law and standards by simply reprogramming.


Unlocked assistence speed and wattage are not related in firmware really.


you cannot simply reprogram it to recertify (well not to a 50% decrease anyway), see above. And even so: it wouldn't be harder or easier to edit even if you could.


Nope, we already bypassed those issues a long time ago and unlocked all factory settings available. However: m500 and m600, have firmwares that simply block most changes. Although we have managed to increase current limits for both the m500 and m600 by reverse enginering some parts of the firmware.


Make that 500-900 watt peak actually, depending on the motor.



The only reason isn cycle lobbyists really. They lobbied about ebikes "taking off" too fast from a stop, which is total BS, because they could just limit the acceleration instead.
Though the EU is looking into redesigning those legal limits and LEVA-EU is having success lobbying for more flexible limits, mostly because the amount of needed power depends a lot on the bike and thus there is no "one size fits all bikes" power limit anyway.


Only way would be to get them to send you the hardware and compare the m600 with the m600s. Actually even some pictures might be enough to reverse engineer the changes required to make an m600s from the m600.

Sorry I always thought Amps multiplied by voltage equaled power. Well it did when I went to school. So I guess your saying thats no longer the case. As technologies improve and become more efficient greater refinements can be achieved. However with the early EMTB, when the biggest market in the world for EMTB's calls for a 750W motor, it used to be cheaper to make all bikes 750W and simply change the controller to comply with the local laws. Weather that is through programming or a physical change in the controller would depend on the manufacturer. As for equilibrium temps, thats a physical trait of the motor itself, so in order for a M600 motor to comply with EU regs it would have to be an M500 motor. I don't believe that is the case. I believe it is as simple as reprogramming the controller to comply the local regs.

 

[VMG Chris]

Sorry I always thought Amps multiplied by voltage equaled power. Well it did when I went to school. So I guess your saying thats no longer the case. As technologies improve and become more efficient greater refinements can be achieved. However with the early EMTB, when the biggest market in the world for EMTB's calls for a 750W motor, it used to be cheaper to make all bikes 750W and simply change the controller to comply with the local laws. Weather that is through programming or a physical change in the controller would depend on the manufacturer. As for equilibrium temps, thats a physical trait of the motor itself, so in order for a M600 motor to comply with EU regs it would have to be an M500 motor. I don't believe that is the case. I believe it is as simple as reprogramming the controller to comply the local regs.

Yes, your power calculation is correct, but the EU regulation is against rated nominal power/duty cycle, which is calculated differently as defined by the regulations noted in the previous posts.

 

[ornias]

As for equilibrium temps, thats a physical trait of the motor itself, so in order for a M600 motor to comply with EU regs it would have to be an M500 motor.

Thats not necessarily true, there is a small trick in 15194:2017 and IEC 60034-1. The trick is that it doesn't actually state precisely where the temperature needs to be measured. So one could, for example, half the amount of MOSFETS, to increase their heat output and this lower the Nominal rated voltage in accordance with 15194:2017 and IEC 60034-1.

And behold: This is also precisely what Bafang has done on at least some revisions of the m500. Some of those have half the MOSFETS and thus about half the nominal rated power.

I don't believe that is the case. I believe it is as simple as reprogramming the controller to comply the local regs.

You can be believer all you want. However 15194:2017 and the standardards layed out therein, are very strict in how it needs to be measured. It has nothing to do with believing. If they did what you proposed they are on the hook for millions.

They state 15194:2017 on the declaration of confirmity, hence they need to stick by the rules therein.

 

[Coolcmsc]

…. the EU regulation is against rated nominal power/duty cycle, which is calculated differently as defined by the regulations noted in the previous posts.

I’ve been watching this thread to try to understand the topic of emtb power rating. So far I’ve worked out that there are people in the thread who really do understand this subject (especially for the Befang range). But I’m so ignorant of these matters that I‘m still a bit baffled. It probably doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things — my bike works and it’s legal! But I would like to understand this.
I’d really appreciate this business of power output (which I do understand for cars) vs nominal rated power/duty cycle being put into simple terms that I can relate to riding my bike. I‘m going to guess that’s not going to be as easy as asking the question and I feel a few, ”what you need to understand” urges in the wings.
But if one of you could have a go at that and then explain why measuring temperature has been used, then I and maybe a few others would be really grateful.

 

[markvanhaze77]

I’ve been watching this thread to try to understand the topic of emtb power rating. So far I’ve worked out that there are people in the thread who really do understand this subject (especially for the Befang range). But I’m so ignorant of these matters that I‘m still a bit baffled. It probably doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things — my bike works and it’s legal! But I would like to understand this.
I’d really appreciate this business of power output (which I do understand for cars) vs nominal rated power/duty cycle being put into simple terms that I can relate to riding my bike. I‘m going to guess that’s not going to be as easy as asking the question and I feel a few, ”what you need to understand” urges in the wings.
But if one of you could have a go at that and then explain why measuring temperature has been used, then I and maybe a few others would be really grateful.

Ok so short version: To control the flow of electricity to a motor you need a speed controller which uses electronic switching components called MOSFeTs and those create heat as they do their job. This heat affects their performance and lifespan. Therefore you have to keep that in check and since you are not riding the bike in a temp controlled lab environment, these temps change externally and internally.

 

[markvanhaze77]

Regarding power outputs and motors: A brushless motor is a very durable machine nearly all manufacturers will make a single model that then is sold with different specs that are controlled by the ESC (speed controller). Think of lets say an iPhone - same externals, same screen, different amounts of RAM. So in manufacturing terms, the processes are same over the whole range of phones except for a single component - thats cost effective for the manufacturer.
In ebikes, the RAM chips from the previous example, is the speed controller.
You can ofc hack the ESC, flash a different firmware onto it and then change a lot of the specs accordingly but the risk is that you are going to go beyond the ESC specs. Here think of overclocking CPUs. This can be done provided you also have adequate cooling for the CPU. Even so, there is a chance you will blow some component since you are beyond its regular specs.

 

[patdam]

I 'm curious of explaination about effective max power delivery by motor (most than 250W) in regard of the rule of 250W ? i know that rule is for "stabilized" and i understand the principle (it can delivery more power to reach the max 25 km/h for exemple), but in reality how they can (and who ?) appreciate is the motor is in line with rule or not ?
exemple: everybody can constat that bosch provide more than the 250 W when we see guys (girls) who uphill at 20 km/h with only turning the crankarms, whithout torque on it. how it is EU rules compatible ?

 

[markvanhaze77]

I 'm curious of explaination about effective max power delivery by motor (most than 250W) in regard of the rule of 250W ? i know that rule is for "stabilized" and i understand the principle (it can delivery more power to reach the max 25 km/h for exemple), but in reality how they can (and who ?) appreciate is the motor is in line with rule or not ?
exemple: everybody can constat that bosch provide more than the 250 W when we see guys (girls) who uphill at 20 km/h with only turning the crankarms, whithout torque on it. how it is EU rules compatible ?

You have to understand that the law is well behind the tech here. Lets put aside that the chance of an official stopping you on your bike and being able to pick up on anything beyond your stickers and the speed he clocked you at, it is all very general and not up to date.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just don’t ask too many questions and just accept that the 250W‘s was a open to be interpreted fudge and can be interpreted by each of the manufacturers in what ever way they want to.

But equally accept that if you want 750 W’s for any length of time then you are going to need big heavy batteries to do that and most buyers do not want a heavier E bike than we already have., So we have already reached in just a few years, motors rating reliably at 800 W’s for limited time lengths and around 800 W/hs of battery at around 25kgs in weight all up, pulling the average rider up hills for 3 hours, the normal riding limit of most.

Cool and fun times to be had by all. Now all we need is to have American spec speed limits and job done in my view.

 

[patdam]

You have to understand that the law is well behind the tech here. Lets put aside that the chance of an official stopping you on your bike and being able to pick up on anything beyond your stickers and the speed he clocked you at, it is all very general and not up to date.

I have read that the motor compatibility with EU rule, is only a declaration of the motor brand. You whould mean that nobody officially check the motor power ? that some motor manufactuers cheat ? no, not possible, an german factory whould never do that ?

May be it is an legal interpretation of the EU rule, whould allow an "help to start", in the spirit to facilitat using cargo bike. And in reality the 250W is the max power available when you reach the 25 km/h, in all other case (under the 25 km/h) the motor provide lot of more than the 250W ? In this case it is easy with little soft setting to provide the M600, EU rule compatible.

 

[ornias]

I have read that the motor compatibility with EU rule, is only a declaration of the motor brand. You whould mean that nobody officially check the motor power ? that some motor manufactuers cheat ? no, not possible, an german factory whould never do that ?

May be it is an legal interpretation of the EU rule, whould allow an "help to start", in the spirit to facilitat using cargo bike. And in reality the 250W is the max power available when you reach the 25 km/h, in all other case (under the 25 km/h) the motor provide lot of more than the 250W ? In this case it is easy with little soft setting to provide the M600, EU rule compatible.

No one is cheating at all. But no official checks it either. it's "rated power" not "certified power rating".

you are overcomplicating things a lot, nominal rated power exists and could be certified by people who know what they are doing. Just take it for granted. I'm not going to explain how it could be certified, because I already shared you the name of the exact tests you need to perform, It's not an easy mater. Just take it for what it is: A manufacturers rating.

There is NO relationship between "nominal rated power" and maximum power. An ebike could use 1KW for a few seconds and still be compliant.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Thanks +++ to the recent posters. You have explained what’s going on using straightforward words. I now understand for the EU (and U.K.) and the US:-
1. How power is defined on an emtb
2. What’s being measured and why inside my emtb
3. What’s required of the manufacturer in respect of the capability/limitations of an emtb they sell
4. What’s required of the authorities in an EU country in respect of an emtb being tested
5. What’s required of an owner of an emtb
What I hadn’t expected is a better understanding of how my bike might be tested by the police (in a criminal investigation on either private land or on a public road) or by a manufacturer when considering a warranty claim (I realise that sometimes manufacturers choose NOT to check how an emtb motor’s controller might have been adjusted and I understand why that might be their choice).
Brilliant! ???

 

[Coolcmsc]

Sooo…. that begs another question that might as well be asked in this thread as it’s already been touched upon. And it’s the subject of a great deal of anecdotal opinion. But I think those replying to me may know the true answer….
Should they choose to make a really concerted effort and they have the bike in question, can a manufacturer or the police generally expect to find evidence that an emtb has been ‘chipped’ (overclocked, speed limit bypassed whatever you wish to call it), even if the chipping device is removed, the firmware is re-downloaded, the control unit it reset or whatever? Using the computer analogy mentioned above (which I do know lots about), I’m asking if the bike owner can guarantee that they can wipe any record stored in RAM, for example by removing the battery and any replaceable battery in the control unit. So, is there a little battery in emtb’s that can’t be removed without leaving a trace that would maintain a full history in RAM?
Thanks again!

 

[ornias]

About the police testing your motor power:
No mater what some police officer or local DA states, that is not possible. While you could rerun the tests in accordance with 15194:2017, those require the manufacturer specified temperature thresholds. Without those it's quite hard (or even impossible) to do any definitive testing. Though some estimate could be made ofc.

 

[markvanhaze77]

Sooo…. that begs another question that might as well be asked in this thread as it’s already been touched upon. And it’s the subject of a great deal of anecdotal opinion. But I think those replying to me may know the true answer….
Should they choose to make a really concerted effort and they have the bike in question, can a manufacturer or the police generally expect to find evidence that an emtb has been ‘chipped’ (overclocked, speed limit bypassed whatever you wish to call it), even if the chipping device is removed, the firmware is re-downloaded, the control unit it reset or whatever? Using the computer analogy mentioned above (which I do know lots about), I’m asking if the bike owner can guarantee that they can wipe any record stored in RAM, for example by removing the battery and any replaceable battery in the control unit. So, is there a little battery in emtb’s that can’t be removed without leaving a trace that would maintain a full history in RAM?
Thanks again!

Seriously don't be so paranoid. Ride sensibly and you will be fine.