"2nd dead bosch gen 4 motor not happy

[RustyMTB]

Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good is another way of putting it. Ebikes are unrecognisable from ten years ago, the frailties are arguably a price worth paying for the advancements.

 

[Paulquattro]

I've been reading this thread as lots of us have and one thing stands out , Just don't buy another one go back to a standard unassisted bike if they don't suit you in there present state and wait for things maybe to get better ,
Moaning about the technology of a pedelec is pointless the big boys don't care that's fact lets be honest we are all beta testing for the manufacturers like it or not .


We all have a choice in what we buy

 

[Bndit]

Don't submerge them and don't aim a jet wash or hose at them....apart from that you should be OK. I have done thousands of miles on emtbs ...both Brose and Bosch since 2019 including 5 very wet uk winters....no motors problem

I've been reading this thread as lots of us have and one thing stands out , Just don't buy another one go back to a standard unassisted bike if they don't suit you in there present state and wait for things maybe to get better ,
Moaning about the technology of a pedelec is pointless the big boys don't care that's fact lets be honest we are all beta testing for the manufacturers like it or not .


We all have a choice in what we buy

This is well said. I think people generally just don't know what they are buying or how they should be used. I'm have been really happy with my ebikes, there has been motor replacements, both Specialized and Bosch. About Shimano I don't know because I have ridden it only 650km's in two months. I do my own service, ride through winter and hose wash them regulary. People complaint that LBS bought bikes are expensive but you get better support in case of problems. I you don't want to pay the extra, you shouldn't complain when things go south...

 

[RustyMTB]

No Haribo. Worst day ever.

 

[Bones]

No Haribo. Worst day ever.

View attachment 143644

I also have an egg
Eventually when I get time, I will incubate it into a Bosch pigeon and crap all over the trails

 

[Gareth]

I've been reading this thread as lots of us have and one thing stands out , Just don't buy another one go back to a standard unassisted bike if they don't suit you in there present state and wait for things maybe to get better ,

Moaning about the technology of a pedelec is pointless the big boys don't care that's fact lets be honest we are all beta testing for the manufacturers like it or not .


We all have a choice in what we buy

That’s just sweet after having forked out many thousands of pounds for a supposedly well-developed solid reliable product.
Two words spring to mind, the second is off, and I’ll leave you to guess the first.

 

[Gareth]

I'm different to some i think, i bought mine accepting that the motor is likely scrap either during or after the warranty and will need replacing before the bike does. It potentially means a cost of £500-1000 but lets be fair here, that's not a completely insane amount after 2 years of ownership, if it was a car and needed a new clutch at £500 you'd be OK with that, or an air-con condenser you'd accept that too. So I don't see why people think a motor should last forever.

Exactly, if the clutch in my car goes I replace it. If the clutch in my emotor goes, I’m supposed to shrug my shoulders and shell out for a whole new unit.

This carry on reminds me of my first DSLR that I bought back in 2005, a Canon 5D. Canon didn’t bother with weather sealing, but as it rains in Scotland mine got wet. Eventually it failed, and it failed outside of warranty at just over 2 years old. I was pissed off, but 400 quid later it was working again thanks to a new power PCB board board.

In 2009 I bought the mk2 Canon 5D, and guess what Canon had added basic weather sealing. Not only does Canon support their products but they also listen to their customers.

Same with the NIKON film scanner I used to use. After a few years it failed. I sent it off, I got a bit of a bill, but I got my scanner back and working without having to fork out for a new one. Nikon supports their products.

The other year my tumble dryer stopped working. Hey I could probably buy a new one for not much more than 200 quid. But I poked about and figured out a belt on the water pump had failed, ordered the part, and bingo it was going again. Hotpoint support their products.

The grill on my cooker failed. I figured out it was the control switch, ordered a new one and bingo my cooker was sorted. Belling support their products.

But according to some of you guys, I should just throw anything and everything that breaks down in the bin and buy a new one. Really?

So why do we accept that BOSCH are so shite. What is so special about BOSCH that they get away with treating their consumers with contempt and not providing basic support for their products?

And why do so many of you think it is OK? I mean if you all think it is OK getting ripped off time and time again, well yeah, you’ll probably continue to keep being treated like mugs with bottomless pockets.

So I don't see why people think a motor should last forever.

I don’t think anybody expects an ebike motor to last forever, but a little basic product support, as one would expect, would be nice.

 

[Planemo]

I fully get what you're saying Planemo, and I agree with much of it. As said before, I am not standing up for the manufacturers, they are capable of doing that themselves should they want to, but I did used to work for a very large corporate company as a technical engineering manager, so I can understand some of the other issues faced.

Unfortunately, it's not just a friction issue. There are many design change issues, tooling issues, testing issues etc.
People used to say to us... why don't you just change that bit!? This would require 3 months in a design department, a £50,000 tool to make 10 test or prototype parts at a ridiculous cost per piece. Then these parts would have to go through a 10,000 hour test run (which may fail or go wrong and have to be re-started!), then a salt spray test, emf, test etc. etc.
This used to take around 5 years in total. This would equate to Bosch's current progress of releasing a new motor every 4 to 5 years.

If we look into the technicalities of sealing a spinning splined shaft within another spinning splined shaft against very high pressure water. this to be done without the motor sensing drag and thinking you're still pedalling, or the torque sensor thinking you're putting more effort in than you are etc. I could write a book on the issues we've had trying to seal these motors.

Then the more waterproof the motors are made, the deeper water everyone will ride through, so then the electronics, plugs, gaskets and batteries would all need redesigning!

As I said, it is coming, manufacturers have made some mistakes, but things are definitely changing, they are listening, it will be fixed and these issues will go away. It just takes time.

Yes, I know we should not be the Guinea pigs, and the design should have been right in the first place. This is also a subject I have written extensively about, but sadly do not have time to repeat this today.

I absolutely take your points about cost when tweeking designs but this issue should have been dealt with at the initial design stage as you say and discussing costs now is somewhat irrelevant to the point being raised. Frankly I don't give a monkeys if this shite design costs Bosch dearly in re-tooling. If you say that Bosch et all may be getting on top of it soon then great but that doesn't help us saps with older motors (It won't help you guys in the future if motors stop failing either

We're not talking about sealing shafts against 'high pressure water'. Motors are suffering ingress from simply being hosed down. We even have people who don't want to sponge wash their bikes for fear of ingress over time. This is not OK on an MTB.

Re your comments on drag and it dicking with the torque sensing I get where you're coming from but again I maintain that a couple of oil seals won't be overbearing and any friction can be written into the software anyway. It's not like the coefficient of friction changes much over the life of the seal either so unlikely needs a tricky logarithm.

I agree, if things get sealed better there will always be divs who think submarining their ebikes is suddenly OK but I feel it's drifting off the issue somewhat in that the current motors are failing from simply being shown unpressurized water on a vehicle that is intended to be used outside in all conditions. If it were any other item I am inclined to think they would be recalled as unfit for purpose.

 

[JP-NZ]

I doubt manufacturers are going to trip over each other develop all new mtb only motors for a shoot out over a 10% market share. The numbers can't be there or they would have done it by now.

This is exactly it. If ya like getting ya motor wet or even better submerged then buy a MX bike or standard MTB.

 

[JP-NZ]

So why do we accept that BOSCH are so shite. What is so special about BOSCH that they get away with treating their consumers with contempt and not providing basic support for their products?

And why do so many of you think it is OK? I mean if you all think it is OK getting ripped off time and time again, well yeah, you’ll probably continue to keep being treated like mugs with bottomless pockets.

I'm probably going to regret this but here goes:

No offense but your starting to sound unhinged.. You've posted 26 times in this thread alone. Bosch are far from "shite" your one of a minuscule percentage of consumers having an issue.

How am I being ripped off time and time again? I purchased a Bosch EMTB 2 years ago that has done 3,000km faultlessly, I feel it will easily carry on for many years to come. LBS is there for repairs and service if needed.

Don't really see how I'm a mug with bottomless pockets either, here's a tip if ya don't like it, sell your bike and buy something else. Seriously

 

[Paulquattro]

I'm probably going to regret this but here goes:

No offense but your starting to sound unhinged.. You've posted 26 times in this thread alone. Bosch are far from "shite" your one of a minuscule percentage of consumers having an issue.

How am I being ripped off time and time again? I purchased a Bosch EMTB 2 years ago that has done 3,000km faultlessly, I feel it will easily carry on for many years to come. LBS is there for repairs and service if needed.

Don't really see how I'm a mug with bottomless pockets either, here's a tip if ya don't like it, sell your bike and buy something else. Seriously

Below is lifted from his Welcome post after openly admitting 3800 miles of abuse and i guess he is also a MUG with bottomless pockets :



"It has been used and abused" and I live in one of the wettest counties in the world which does not help.
I am addicted to it, it is fantastic. Probably going to buy another" .

 

[RustyMTB]

In here yesterday telling someone to f***k off too. Just an empty vessel making the most noise.

 

[Gareth]

In here yesterday telling someone to f***k off too. Just an empty vessel making the most noise.

No, what I said (post #276) was ‘insert verb of your choice’ “off” to the idea that I should have to repeatedly buy new motors because BOSCH won’t support their product.

 

[JGH]

I've been reading this thread as lots of us have and one thing stands out , Just don't buy another one go back to a standard unassisted bike if they don't suit you in there present state and wait for things maybe to get better.

Knowing where the industry is going, I'd say it is questionable if they will get better any time soon.

Planed obsolescence, Right 2 repair, Right 2 own.

 

[JGH]

So why do we accept that BOSCH are so shite. What is so special about BOSCH that they get away with treating their consumers with contempt and not providing basic support for their products?

What isn't shite these days and who provides support these days? Phones with not replaceable batteries, and serialised parts? Cars which disable features when you repair them not where the manufacturer tells you to repair them? Sadly this is where the world is moving. It would be naive to expect that e-bike market is different.

Check Louis Rossmann on YT if you do not know what I am talking about.

Right 2 repair

 

[JGH]

How am I being ripped off time and time again? I purchased a Bosch EMTB 2 years ago that has done 3,000km faultlessly, I feel it will easily carry on for many years to come. LBS is there for repairs and service if needed.

My e-bike has similar mileage. Care taken, runs faultlessly as if extra 3k km is nothing for it. But this is what I wish. Reality is that it would be extremely naive for me to say that it will do 3k km easily. This is not how it works, and this thread gives really good insights. More over everything is moving more and more to planned obsolescence, so how can you say that e-bike market is an exception?

 

[Gareth]

No offense but your starting to sound unhinged.. You've posted 26 times in this thread alone. Bosch are far from "shite" your one of a minuscule percentage of consumers having an issue.

I’m not counting, but as you are JP-NZ, well here is, so I’m told, no. 28 in this thread from me.

As for me being the only one with an issue;

‘The big problem is water’: UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

"It has been used and abused" and I live in one of the wettest counties in the world which does not help.

I am addicted to it, it is fantastic. Probably going to buy another" .

Yup that’s me Paul. I love my ebike. I’m addicted to my ebike. And talking of addictions, well I’ve often thought there can be good or harmless addictions, and bad addictions. I’m just not sure at times which my ebike is.

Yeah I was in the bicycle shop very recently drooling over a Mondraker Crafty R. I was seriously thinking of buying it. I was a new customer to them, so I asked about the reliability of the Bosch emotor and they told me “we very rarely ever have any issues with them”. So I told them the Bosch unit in my Cube Action Team died after only 3450 miles and their response was “I’d say that’s pretty good for an emtb motor”

So yeah Paul, maybe it that feeling of being taken for a mug, that seems to be holding me back. The Cube is still up and running. And yeah it would be nice to know things are improving before I jump in again.

And like I’ve said, I can get support for a 250 quid tumble dryer, through to digital cameras as well as my car and motorcycle. So why can’t I get the parts I need to keep my ebike motor going?

 

[RustyMTB]

No, what I said (post #276) was ‘insert verb of your choice’ “off” to the idea that I should have to repeatedly buy new motors because BOSCH won’t support their product.

Ah yeah, that'll be it. You're one step ahead, you.

I have no idea what you're doing here. You don't seem to want help, which this forum does very well, nor do you appear to be looking for someone at Bosch to take your axe grinding forward. You merely come across as the guy who could start an argument in an empty room & takes every opportunity to do so. You're annoyed at Bosch. Yeah, we heard you the first time.

 

[Gareth]

Ah yeah, that'll be it. You're one step ahead, you.

Rusty, next time instead of putting your twisted spin and interpretation onto what somebody has said - just quote them. Less chance of getting it wrong that way.

Another wee thing you could try, is rather than attacking and insulting people, and that does seem to be your style, why not try addressing the substance of their posts.

You're annoyed at Bosch.

Yup of course I am. And I’m not the only one, and no I’m not gonna have you tell me to shut up.

So there’s my reply no29 in this thread

 

[AF1]

Knowing where the industry is going, I'd say it is questionable if they will get better any time soon.

Planed obsolescence, Right 2 repair, Right 2 own.

The industry will change if just one manufacturer produces an excellently performing, well designed and dedicated EMTB motor which is waterproof to IP67. The rest will be forced to follow.

 

[emin86]

The devil IS in the detail especially:

• submerging in water or another liquid

View attachment 143580

thats just so sad to see... i was really hoping and I mean REALLY hoping that they would make these durable.. fingers crossed...

Im hoping that these motors really last long (i.e. excess of 30k miles) OR atleast have them user serviceable... OR have the replacement motors HEAVILY discounted...

 

[Gareth]

The industry will change if just one manufacturer produces an excellently performing, well designed and dedicated EMTB motor which is waterproof to IP67. The rest will be forced to follow.

Yup something needs to change.

At the moment, in markets like the UK, emotors in emtbs are lasting something like 10% or less of their design life.

Seals need to improve.

If there are practical limits to sealing, then perhaps bike shops need make sure customers know to wash by hand and not point water jets at the motor. Plus seals may need to be a service item. And if you don’t get them serviced after a year by your bike shop, then bye bye warranty.

Make parts available to approved authorised repairers.

This is mostly simple stuff.

One thing that I find frustrating, is that at this point I’d probably writing to my MEP. Except that thanks to BREXIT we have no MEPs and the UK has no say whatsoever over standards and practises. In the UK perhaps all we can do is highlight the issue.

So share this far and wide (cheers AF1) - ‘The big problem is water’: UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

My post no.30 in this thread

 

[irie]

One thing that I find frustrating, is that at this point I’d probably writing to my MEP. Except that thanks to BREXIT we have no MEPs and the UK has no say whatsoever over standards and practises. In the UK perhaps all we can do is highlight the issue.

MEPs have no executive power whatsoever so even if you did have an MEP to write to you'd be p1ssing into the wind.

 

[Gareth]

MEPs have no executive power whatsoever so even if you did have an MEP to write to you'd be p1ssing into the wind.

I’m no expert on how the EU works. But I believe that MEPs can propose legislation to committees, and there is some sort of long convoluted democratic process that sometimes eventually produces legislation like the right to repair stuff.

At the end of the day the UK will follow CE standards and lots of other EU legislation, for a whole variety of reasons, but no longer have any influence over them.

Any new British standards will more than likely be cut and paste from CE standards.

 

[Vaau839]

Do you think that bosch submerges their motors while running too? Is Bafang just better at testing and manufacturing? Maybe they're more experienced, bigger than bosch in ebike space?

 

[Gareth]

The Bafang M560 is rated IP X6 (different IP scale) which according to google is “Protected against high pressure water stream from any angle”.

That suggests Bafang may well be ahead of many other manufacturers in that respect.

 

[AF1]

Do you think that bosch submerges their motors while running too? Is Bafang just better at testing and manufacturing? Maybe they're more experienced, bigger than bosch in ebike space?

View attachment 143785

Wow, that's very impressive, I wonder what Pete ( @Bearing Man) has to say about Bafang Reliability & Longevity. My wife's Bafang motored MTB is 14 years old and still going strong!

 

[AF1]

IP code - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zimmerframe]

Whilst this is pretty much a dead thread where most people seem to have given up trying to have rational discussions or help as the Waldorf and Statler show continues ....

The 14 year old bafang bike is probably hub motored and therefore mounts and works completely differently and doesn't thave the same torque sensing capabilities. It also won't suffer from pedal strikes and it's less exposed to moisture like a mid drive.

As for bafang making a magic motor .. the m5s are all pretty similar though the m560 has had quite a few issues and was pulled for quite a while. They suffer the same moisture ingress issues as most other motors.

As stated previously I run Bosch, brose and bafang and have no problems with any of them though they're not jet washed and only the brose has been abused as a submarine.

Yes it would be nice if everything was indestructible. Things improve, slowly, but as stated, there are reasons why things are as they are.

The mindset here reminds me of an ex who thought everything made should be able to be used in any way without care, as she broke everything she used.

EMTB is great fun. Mainly riding. Go and ride ! Yes, innovations are fun and interesting, but they shouldn't be the sole focus.

You own something, you know it's not indestructible. Take it into account when you use it and it should last longer or accept that there will be a running cost associated to it as there is with most things. We don't live in some future world of self repairing nano bots, otherwise bearing man would be on holiday all the time.

 

[Gareth]

Yes it would be nice if everything was indestructible.

Nobody is saying that, and nobody expects that.

We don't live in some future world of self repairing nano bots, otherwise bearing man would be on holiday all the time.

I can’t speak for bearing man, but my understanding is (please correct me if I am wrong) that he can get all the parts for Brose that he needs to fix them.

Whereas a lot of perfectly fixable Bosch units are written off and/or cannibalised to fix other units. Mine was written off for the sake of a PCB board.

Anyway Zimmerframe your dream of a bomb proof indestructible motor will always be just a dream.

But I suspect, what is good for bearing man is probably good for us all.