Planning and proposing law
The Commission has the 'right of initiative' to propose new EU laws. Laws are prepared transparently, based on evidence, and the views of citizens.
commission.europa.eu
The EU Commission is not an elected body.
hth
"2nd dead bosch gen 4 motor not happy
- Thread starter Geeman
- Start date
commission.europa.eu
The EU Commission is not an elected body.
hth
I’d personally heed these warnings. The YouTube rebuild help videos are heavily edited or the critical steps are confusing and incomplete. They tend to show the complexity and special tools required.
Back in the day, on your vehicle, you could return the “core” of an alternator, water pump, carburetor, etc, for a small price reduction. I always assumed that the “core” would be rebuilt and re-sold.
My knowledge and speciality tools are limited to a Bearing Seal replacement kit. Fairly easy to do, cheap, and part of regular maintenance. The YouTube videos are fairly easy to follow also. A few specific tools are required (torque wrench, spider socket, crank puller).
I’ve either been lucky or fortunate with my Bosch CX motor. 4 years old, ridden almost daily, all types of weather, and completely submerged (submarined) several times. I know that someday this motor will fail.…and when it does I can sell off my wife’s shoe collection to pay for repairs.
You’ve been lucky with your motor “ a midweek factory build and not a Friday afternoon build “ springs to mind if you get my drift.
I’m onto my third motor which I paid for at a heavily discounted price from the supplying bike shop so I’m back in warranty mode.
The second motor only lasted 1000 miles and the bike shop returned the motor and I sent it away to a repair specialist to hopefully get it fixed….. their diagnosis was the same “totally f——d” so that was another £45 down the swanny. When this motor fails I’ve no qualms in forking out for another motor if it’s out of the warranty period.
Mechanical parts can be serviced but not electronic components apparently
These e-bikes have a massive appetite for consuming £ notes
"Citizens themselves, following a successful European Citizens’ Initiative" There must be many members of this forum who reside in the EU so maybe some of them could table citizen's initiatives for including ebikes in the Right to Repair Legislation"Planning and proposing law
The Commission has the 'right of initiative' to propose new EU laws. Laws are prepared transparently, based on evidence, and the views of citizens.
The EU Commission is not an elected body.
hth
1 million signatures is a high bar!
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Probably like many others I knew very little about emtbs when I bought my first.....a Levo Comp. It did not take me long to better understand their inherent weaknesses and this forum played a big part in that. At the age of 68 years at the time the Levo not only vastly improved my enjoyment of mountain biking it promoted mtb to be my number 1 sport.
Emtbs were then...and still are .......subject to design flaws and they are no secret. The outdated transmission components cannot handle the power, electrical components are easily damaged or subject to water damage, and yes , none of the motors are waterproof. Even the way heavy batteries are installed on many bikes is pretty haplessAdd to that few if any bike shop mechanics are skilled in analysing electrical faults.
So as a rider you are left with 2 options.
1. Take account of the weaknesses in how you ride and maintain the bike.
2. Howl at the moon when it breaks
I learnt a long time ago not to waste energy fighting battles you cannot win.
Emtbs were then...and still are .......subject to design flaws and they are no secret. The outdated transmission components cannot handle the power, electrical components are easily damaged or subject to water damage, and yes , none of the motors are waterproof. Even the way heavy batteries are installed on many bikes is pretty haplessAdd to that few if any bike shop mechanics are skilled in analysing electrical faults.
So as a rider you are left with 2 options.
1. Take account of the weaknesses in how you ride and maintain the bike.
2. Howl at the moon when it breaks
I learnt a long time ago not to waste energy fighting battles you cannot win.
"I learnt a long time ago not to waste energy fighting battles you cannot win" back to the dark ages then? We cannot win if we do not try!
This article suggests that ebikes ARE covered by the newly enacted EU RTR legislation but manufacturers have 2 years after adoption to comply. What 'Right to Repair' means for e-bike sellers and manufacturers
Good luck!
"Bosch EU Lobbying Costs
2,500,000€ - 2,749,999€
Financial year: Jan 2023 - Dec 2023"
Robert Bosch GmbH datacard on lobbyfacts.eu
Check out all LobbyFacts data on Robert Bosch GmbH as extracted from the EU lobby transparancy register. Die Bosch-Gruppe ist ein international führendes Technologie- und Dienstleistungsunternehmen mit weltweit rund 427 600 Mitarbeitern (Stand: 31.12.2023). Sie erwirtschaftete im Geschäftsjahr...
I agree …and I can’t explain it. I may be one of the most abusive eMTB operators I know regarding weather and terrain. I stopped counting the kms on this Bosch gen4 CX…but I know my days are numbered.
There’s only a few things that I might do differently on my eMTB.
1-I don’t clunk or over stress the motor. I maintain a consistent cadence.
2-Diaelectric grease around plugs (ribs only) of the motor. (4).
3-Regular cleaning and maintenance (bearing seal kit).
Common sense stuff that we probably all do.
Purchased my 2020 Rail in 2019. It was the first model, of this type, that came through the LBS …so it drew a bit of attention from the sales and mechanics crew of the LBS. I didn’t really understand the complexity of an eMTB …I just saw a shiny thing and was anxious to ride it. That was almost 5 years ago.
Pretty much everything we as ordinary people in the UK enjoy today is because people stood up and fought for their rights.
Yes, it seems to be a common attitude today. But I guess those who believe they have lost before they even try will never win anything.
Bosch are massive, so I’m surprised they spend so little on lobbying in the EU.
And the article that AF1 has linked to suggests that ‘right to repair’ is on its way. Though of course, thanks to the gift that keeps on giving, it may not apply in the UK. But it does looks like things may improve given time– fingers crossed.
Yes, it seems to be a common attitude today. But I guess those who believe they have lost before they even try will never win anything.
Good luck!
"Bosch EU Lobbying Costs
2,500,000€ - 2,749,999€
Financial year: Jan 2023 - Dec 2023"
Bosch are massive, so I’m surprised they spend so little on lobbying in the EU.
And the article that AF1 has linked to suggests that ‘right to repair’ is on its way. Though of course, thanks to the gift that keeps on giving, it may not apply in the UK. But it does looks like things may improve given time– fingers crossed.
It should apply to us as we adopt the EU laws.Pretty much everything we as ordinary people in the UK enjoy today is because people stood up and fought for their rights.
Yes, it seems to be a common attitude today. But I guess those who believe they have lost before they even try will never win anything.
Bosch are massive, so I’m surprised they spend so little on lobbying in the EU.
And the article that AF1 has linked to suggests that ‘right to repair’ is on its way. Though of course, thanks to the gift that keeps on giving, it may not apply in the UK. But it does looks like things may improve given time– fingers crossed.
I wonder if right to repair, parts availability would apply to older motors or just new upcoming ones. Knowing bosch's track record I would not be surprised if older motors and even something bought today would just be forgotten.Pretty much everything we as ordinary people in the UK enjoy today is because people stood up and fought for their rights.
Yes, it seems to be a common attitude today. But I guess those who believe they have lost before they even try will never win anything.
Bosch are massive, so I’m surprised they spend so little on lobbying in the EU.
And the article that AF1 has linked to suggests that ‘right to repair’ is on its way. Though of course, thanks to the gift that keeps on giving, it may not apply in the UK. But it does looks like things may improve given time– fingers crossed.
im afraid you fail to understand the principle...............you must have spent ages reading and writing on this thread....time you could have spent on more productive activity like doing some maintenance on your bike or planning how to get the best out of it knowing its weaknesses. That is the winning strategy.Pretty much everything we as ordinary people in the UK enjoy today is because people stood up and fought for their rights.
Yes, it seems to be a common attitude today. But I guess those who believe they have lost before they even try will never win anything.
Bosch are massive, so I’m surprised they spend so little on lobbying in the EU.
And the article that AF1 has linked to suggests that ‘right to repair’ is on its way. Though of course, thanks to the gift that keeps on giving, it may not apply in the UK. But it does looks like things may improve given time– fingers crossed.
In reality the world of commerce is only concerned with profit, and that should not be frowned upon because lots of peoples lives depend on the survival of businesses. If something threatens profitibility, they will take a ction to deal with it..............if not they will see no need. Product development arises from competition.........nothing else.
That leaves politicians. To think they legislate in response to a very small minority complaint is Im afraid naive. They pursue power and political agendas. Right to repair....most especially as an EU directive, has nothing to do with consumer rights. It forms part of the ongoing shackeling of industry, and will most likely incur increased costs for the consumer to bear.
I would suggest to join Right 2 Repair movements and it's groups in your area/country.One thing that I find frustrating, is that at this point I’d probably writing to my MEP. Except that thanks to BREXIT we have no MEPs and the UK has no say whatsoever over standards and practises. In the UK perhaps all we can do is highlight the issue.
In the UK it appears to be Contact - The Restart Project
In Europe Home - Right to Repair Europe
USA Learn About the Right to Repair — The Repair Association
Fixing the world, one gizmo at a time. | iFixit News
iFixit is a global community of people helping each other repair things. Let's fix the world, one device at a time. Troubleshoot with experts in the Answers forum—and build your own how-to guides to share with the world. Fix your Apple and Android devices—and buy all the parts and tools needed...
www.ifixit.com
- When I bought mine during lockdown, I assumed buying a Bosch powered EMTB was a sensible thing to do due to the company size and reputation.
- I assumed the motors would be repairable.
- I assumed that all parts would be available as they are for my Bosch Washing Machine
- I assumed the 4th Generation motors would be designed and built to permit use in all the usual MTB conditions and terrains including a decent level of waterproofing similar to Submersible Electric Water Pumps.
- I very much doubt I am alone in believing these things at time of purchase.
- Who knew we should only clean our motor casing with a damp cloth – really?
- Years later, when I got a 510 Error, I was shocked when so many riders told me it would require me to buy a new £700 motor as parts aren’t made available by Bosch and it was out of warranty.
- I was lucky that my 510 error did not require a new motor, but I like many others on here, I am now very anxious about getting the motor wet, having a crank strike or getting near a magnetic field - each of which can terminate a motor.
- I realise I might yet have to fork out £700 for a new motor down the line, as longevity it seems is not their strongpoint.
- We do not know how many riders are affected by this, but trawling the Groups and Forums suggests many - and not only EMTB riders.
- These issues are sadly not confined to Bosch motors, but at least Brose and Bafang do sell motor spares.
- Who amongst us has not had to cross a stream or deep puddle or deep water filled rut when riding the trails in a country as wet or wetter than the UK? It is not possible to know the depth of the water until you are committed.
- I am sure most on here will agree that we should be enjoying our ride and not worrying about these pitfalls.
- When I bought mine during lockdown, I assumed buying a Bosch powered EMTB was a sensible thing to do due to the company size and reputation.
- You made a good assumption, Bosch have an excellent reputation for good customer service with a very fair and generous warranty system.
- I assumed the motors would be repairable.
- They are as soon as they are outside of their warranty period. You can buy the parts from us to repair your own motor or we can repair it for you. The PCB is not currently on the shopping list because it is closely linked with the battery and strict legal control for speed regulation.
- I assumed that all parts would be available as they are for my Bosch Washing Machine
- All parts are available from us except the PCB.
- I assumed the 4th Generation motors would be designed and built to permit use in all the usual MTB conditions and terrains including a decent level of waterproofing similar to Submersible Electric Water Pumps.
- Even off road motorcycles are not submersible.
- I very much doubt I am alone in believing these things at time of purchase.
- Who knew we should only clean our motor casing with a damp cloth – really?
- No, not really. It is perfectly safe to spray with some sort of Muck-Off, wash with a soft brush and sprinkle with the hose.
- Years later, when I got a 510 Error, I was shocked when so many riders told me it would require me to buy a new £700 motor as parts aren’t made available by Bosch and it was out of warranty.
- The susceptibility of the motors components to magnetism has been helped with a software update from Bosch to tone down the crankshaft torque sensors sensitivity. Also, this is a problem that can be fixed outside of warranty.
- I was lucky that my 510 error did not require a new motor, but I like many others on here, I am now very anxious about getting the motor wet, having a crank strike or getting near a magnetic field - each of which can terminate a motor.
- Bosch Gen 4 are not that susceptible to magnetic fields or crank strikes these days.
- I realise I might yet have to fork out £700 for a new motor down the line, as longevity it seems is not their strongpoint.
- If you're out of warranty and their "good will" policy can't help, just have it repaired. If the PCB has failed, you can buy a remanufactured one for a lot less than £700.00
- We do not know how many riders are affected by this, but trawling the Groups and Forums suggests many - and not only EMTB riders.
- Our repair stats state exactly the opposite.
- These issues are sadly not confined to Bosch motors, but at least Brose and Bafang do sell motor spares.
- Who amongst us has not had to cross a stream or deep puddle or deep water filled rut when riding the trails in a country as wet or wetter than the UK? It is not possible to know the depth of the water until you are committed.
- If you took that attitude with a motorbike, car, lorry etc. you would also stand the chance of wrecking the motor.
- I am sure most on here will agree that we should be enjoying our ride and not worrying about these pitfalls.
- Absolutely, and 1,000's of riders do that every day. I see every failure of every motor out there, day in and day out. I still don't think that I am going to be walking home every time I go for a ride because I know these motors really aren't as bad as they seem on forums.
I ride a Specialized Turbo Levo with a Brose 2.1 motor and decided to do a little experiment. I fitted a new motor just to see how long it lasted without washing it. Part of my journey floods across the path in the winter for about 500 or 600 metres, and generally to a depth just below the crankshaft, the rest is large puddles and gravelly mud.
After 2 years, the motor is still quiet and smooth. If the forums were right, I should have had 4 or 5 motors during this time.
I did this same experiment on my older Moustache Race 6 with a Gen 2 Bosch motor and the same result. By the way, I am not saying do this, because the mud builds up and just before it all starts falling off, it makes your bike weigh 4 or 5kg more!!
I guess for you mud acts as a motor bearing sealant, as there is no possible way water would ever get through it
the answer to my question to Bosch or my bike is also for home/work traffic...because in the Netherlands it still rains every day
Rutger, We're sorry to hear about your problems. However, this problem does not occur often and Bosch does use a rubber ring on the bearing to seal the shaft. Our components are splash-proof and therefore not intended for driving in heavy rain. We recommend that you have your ebike regularly serviced and checked for possible missing seals. then these problems will no longer occur as long as the eBike is used responsibly, of course. We will have to refer you to your nearest Bosch dealer. This can help you with this.. Here you will find the link to your nearest Bosch dealer: EN: Een dealer zoeken - eBike-informatie, advies en proefritten zoeken BE: Een dealer zoeken – eBike-informatie en proefritten zoeken We wish you a very nice day! If you have any further questions, we are always here to help. Kind regards, Daniel Vanackere Your Bosch eBike Team
I'm going to send Bosch mail number 3 now
Rutger, We're sorry to hear about your problems. However, this problem does not occur often and Bosch does use a rubber ring on the bearing to seal the shaft. Our components are splash-proof and therefore not intended for driving in heavy rain. We recommend that you have your ebike regularly serviced and checked for possible missing seals. then these problems will no longer occur as long as the eBike is used responsibly, of course. We will have to refer you to your nearest Bosch dealer. This can help you with this.. Here you will find the link to your nearest Bosch dealer: EN: Een dealer zoeken - eBike-informatie, advies en proefritten zoeken BE: Een dealer zoeken – eBike-informatie en proefritten zoeken We wish you a very nice day! If you have any further questions, we are always here to help. Kind regards, Daniel Vanackere Your Bosch eBike Team
I'm going to send Bosch mail number 3 now
I don’t recommend this to anyone. The other times we not safe for an iPhone or camera. Maybe a GoPro.
I use my 2020 Rail every day.
I should go to Hell for this.
I use my 2020 Rail every day.
I should go to Hell for this.
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@Bearing Man "All parts are available from us except the PCB" …Could you please clarify Pete, do you mean "all parts" and would these be 2nd hand from written off motors with corroded PCBs? i.e. to repair one customer's motor with a faulty sensor there has to be another customer's written off motor to provide the used part?
"Our repair stats state exactly the opposite" … I was including the thousands returned to Bosch (and other manufacturers) under and outside warranty that you never see.
"Even off road motorcycles are not submersible" …I disagree, they all are, up to the high up air intake but I know you think water still enters but is evaporated. However, in my (more years than I care to remember) experience this ingress, if any, would form an emulsion and would be evident in the oil. Where would it evaporate to? How would it escape? There is no breather as with 4x4s. I have submerged my KTM 250 (not above the air intake) along with my ride buddies many times in your lovely Dorset (famous for its very deep fords as you know) but none of us have ever found any emulsion. When Enduro M/Cs are completely submerged with the motor running and restarted then the owner is in trouble with emulsion, the oil needs to be changed before restarting. I guess the reason ZF are oil filling their new motors is to offer a small but significant pressure to counter any water ingress and improve corrosion resistance if any ingress were to occur.
“If you took that attitude with a motorbike, car, lorry etc. you would also stand the chance of wrecking the motor”. Yes I agree, if you drive your car or lorry too fast across a ford, the bow wave would drown the engine air intake and kill the motor with a hydraulic seize (expensive but repairable with good parts availability) but if the level is below the intake and you drive slow it’s no problem. However with an Enduro M/c the bow wave is not an issue even at speed. What I’m talking about is riding your EMTB into water that if above the level of the crank shaft, will ingress. This would be quite shallow water – around a foot in the case of my 29er full suspension and as I said not easily discernible before entry. What looks shallow and innocuous can be deeper than expected. This is why the motors need to be waterproofed to IP67.
“Bosch Gen 4 are not that susceptible to magnetic fields or crank strikes these days” …That’s rich, I was directly quoting you earlier in this Gen4 thread where you said to avoid both!
I know you have made great strides in keeping OOWarranty motors going, including custom made bearings – well done for that - but I bet even you Pete would love to be able to buy new PCB’s, Sensors and other motor parts from Bosch if reasonably priced and made readily available? Many of us weren’t to know this non-availability when we bought our bikes.
With regards your mud plugging Levo, do I recall you saying you got into repairing ebike motors because yours had failed and no one could fix it? If so, may I ask what failed? Was it just bearings?
Well done again for all your work on our motors and considerable time spent answering our queries on this forum. You will no doubt be looking for larger premises and more staff if your aforementioned plans come to fruition. Good luck Pete.
"Our repair stats state exactly the opposite" … I was including the thousands returned to Bosch (and other manufacturers) under and outside warranty that you never see.
"Even off road motorcycles are not submersible" …I disagree, they all are, up to the high up air intake but I know you think water still enters but is evaporated. However, in my (more years than I care to remember) experience this ingress, if any, would form an emulsion and would be evident in the oil. Where would it evaporate to? How would it escape? There is no breather as with 4x4s. I have submerged my KTM 250 (not above the air intake) along with my ride buddies many times in your lovely Dorset (famous for its very deep fords as you know) but none of us have ever found any emulsion. When Enduro M/Cs are completely submerged with the motor running and restarted then the owner is in trouble with emulsion, the oil needs to be changed before restarting. I guess the reason ZF are oil filling their new motors is to offer a small but significant pressure to counter any water ingress and improve corrosion resistance if any ingress were to occur.
“If you took that attitude with a motorbike, car, lorry etc. you would also stand the chance of wrecking the motor”. Yes I agree, if you drive your car or lorry too fast across a ford, the bow wave would drown the engine air intake and kill the motor with a hydraulic seize (expensive but repairable with good parts availability) but if the level is below the intake and you drive slow it’s no problem. However with an Enduro M/c the bow wave is not an issue even at speed. What I’m talking about is riding your EMTB into water that if above the level of the crank shaft, will ingress. This would be quite shallow water – around a foot in the case of my 29er full suspension and as I said not easily discernible before entry. What looks shallow and innocuous can be deeper than expected. This is why the motors need to be waterproofed to IP67.
“Bosch Gen 4 are not that susceptible to magnetic fields or crank strikes these days” …That’s rich, I was directly quoting you earlier in this Gen4 thread where you said to avoid both!
I know you have made great strides in keeping OOWarranty motors going, including custom made bearings – well done for that - but I bet even you Pete would love to be able to buy new PCB’s, Sensors and other motor parts from Bosch if reasonably priced and made readily available? Many of us weren’t to know this non-availability when we bought our bikes.
With regards your mud plugging Levo, do I recall you saying you got into repairing ebike motors because yours had failed and no one could fix it? If so, may I ask what failed? Was it just bearings?
Well done again for all your work on our motors and considerable time spent answering our queries on this forum. You will no doubt be looking for larger premises and more staff if your aforementioned plans come to fruition. Good luck Pete.
"Our components are splash-proof and therefore not intended for driving in heavy rain" Huum, Heavy Rain, gentle hose pipe jet, shallow puddle. QED Not fit for an MTB then! Or even a commuter bike!the answer to my question to Bosch or my bike is also for home/work traffic...because in the Netherlands it still rains every day
Rutger, We're sorry to hear about your problems. However, this problem does not occur often and Bosch does use a rubber ring on the bearing to seal the shaft. Our components are splash-proof and therefore not intended for driving in heavy rain. We recommend that you have your ebike regularly serviced and checked for possible missing seals. then these problems will no longer occur as long as the eBike is used responsibly, of course. We will have to refer you to your nearest Bosch dealer. This can help you with this.. Here you will find the link to your nearest Bosch dealer: EN: Een dealer zoeken - eBike-informatie, advies en proefritten zoeken BE: Een dealer zoeken – eBike-informatie en proefritten zoeken We wish you a very nice day! If you have any further questions, we are always here to help. Kind regards, Daniel Vanackere Your Bosch eBike Team
I'm going to send Bosch mail number 3 now
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Wow……..that’s some test definitely some thing to consider…..
I know it’s a bummer when your motor fails and the cost is to say the least eye watering but it’s the downtime and the rigmarole you’ve got to go through to get the motor replaced. Surely by now Bosch and their bike shops that sell bikes with their products strapped to them have enough data to say yes it’s goosed and the bike shops carry enough stock to carry out a motor swap in days not weeks. IMO
I know it’s a bummer when your motor fails and the cost is to say the least eye watering but it’s the downtime and the rigmarole you’ve got to go through to get the motor replaced. Surely by now Bosch and their bike shops that sell bikes with their products strapped to them have enough data to say yes it’s goosed and the bike shops carry enough stock to carry out a motor swap in days not weeks. IMO
I would imagine that if Bosch & others are as fragile as some would have us believe, the manufacturers will be fully aware. Any tipping point will come from bike manufacturers concerned with reputation & applying heavy duty arm twisting. Bike shops I don't think will have anything like enough clout to garner sufficient attention. In the end, the manufacturers are evaluating a calculation - Do we need to change the product for reputation, competition, cost or other factors?Wow……..that’s some test definitely some thing to consider…..
I know it’s a bummer when your motor fails and the cost is to say the least eye watering but it’s the downtime and the rigmarole you’ve got to go through to get the motor replaced. Surely by now Bosch and their bike shops that sell bikes with their products strapped to them have enough data to say yes it’s goosed and the bike shops carry enough stock to carry out a motor swap in days not weeks. IMO
Any manufacturing operation is an oil tanker that takes time to turn around, it's big investment stuff, so inertia dictates they won't act until they need to. The end consumer is, I doubt, anywhere near the thinking. Business is rarely an exercise in morality however much people may wish it to be.
For now, if I really wanted a fully rebuildable motor with all parts available off the shelf, then I'd buy a Polini. And while doing so, wonder why Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose etc. haven't felt the need to follow their example.
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Evelhornet
Member
This
When top of the range emtb's can cost £12k plus (more than a decent motorbike, that can last decades!) It's reasonable to expect them to manage more than a few wet, muddy, rough rides without failing. The bottom line is emtbs are still a new technology that aren't really fit for purpose yet. I havent put my rant on here yet about Giant motors, which cost £1800 to replace - I'm building up to it!
My home turf is Dorset. I know where there is likely to be deep water after lots of rainfall. In most cases riding the margins is where the water is most shallow....otherwise there is often a banking/verge that can be used. Worse case scenario is walk it or turn back. What you don't do is plough through it at speed.
The only time I failed was on a track that is like a pump track when dry (rare!) but a series of ponds when wet. I road the narrow banking but the grass was pretty long and I failed to spot a drainage channel halfway across! It stopped the bike dead.....I fell in the pond. The bike was semi immersed (Levo). We both survived!
The only time I failed was on a track that is like a pump track when dry (rare!) but a series of ponds when wet. I road the narrow banking but the grass was pretty long and I failed to spot a drainage channel halfway across! It stopped the bike dead.....I fell in the pond. The bike was semi immersed (Levo). We both survived!
@Bearing Man "All parts are available from us except the PCB" …Could you please clarify Pete, do you mean "all parts" and would these be 2nd hand from written off motors with corroded PCBs? i.e. to repair one customer's motor with a faulty sensor there has to be another customer's written off motor to provide the used part?
Basically, yes. However, motors are removed for many different reasons, for example thousands of motors are replaced each year under warranty because they creak or they cut out intermittently etc. This is nothing to do with the motor internals, creaking is usually the motor body moving very slightly in the frame, and cutting out is usually the battery, or controller etc. This means the internal parts have a few hundred miles on them, are in excellent condition and can be sustainably used again, instead of going in the bin.
"Our repair stats state exactly the opposite" … I was including the thousands returned to Bosch (and other manufacturers) under and outside warranty that you never see.
Don't worry, we see them. But it makes no difference to the fact that if motors were failing at a phenomenal rate, I would be a very rich man... And I'm not!
"Even off road motorcycles are not submersible" …I disagree, they all are, up to the high up air intake but I know you think water still enters but is evaporated. However, in my (more years than I care to remember) experience this ingress, if any, would form an emulsion and would be evident in the oil. Where would it evaporate to? How would it escape? There is no breather as with 4x4s. I have submerged my KTM 250 (not above the air intake) along with my ride buddies many times in your lovely Dorset (famous for its very deep fords as you know) but none of us have ever found any emulsion. When Enduro M/Cs are completely submerged with the motor running and restarted then the owner is in trouble with emulsion, the oil needs to be changed before restarting. I guess the reason ZF are oil filling their new motors is to offer a small but significant pressure to counter any water ingress and improve corrosion resistance if any ingress were to occur.
Sorry, you kind of missed my point here but no problem. Just have to point out a couple of things here though. You don't tend to get water ingress into a combustion engine because it is generally under positive pressure from the combustion gasses. There are breathers on the motor and this is also where any condensation can get out. If a motor was switched off and left in the water long enough the water will get in through the seals, but to notice tiny amounts of ingress would not be possible, even in just a litre or so of oil. It does take quite a bit of water to show when it emulsifies with the oil.
Sadly, ZF are not using any combustion or pump pressure, so ingress will still be an issue, but as you say, it will definitely improve corrosion resistance.
“If you took that attitude with a motorbike, car, lorry etc. you would also stand the chance of wrecking the motor”. Yes I agree, if you drive your car or lorry too fast across a ford, the bow wave would drown the engine air intake and kill the motor with a hydraulic seize (expensive but repairable with good parts availability) but if the level is below the intake and you drive slow it’s no problem. However with an Enduro M/c the bow wave is not an issue even at speed. What I’m talking about is riding your EMTB into water that if above the level of the crank shaft, will ingress. This would be quite shallow water – around a foot in the case of my 29er full suspension and as I said not easily discernible before entry. What looks shallow and innocuous can be deeper than expected. This is why the motors need to be waterproofed to IP67. Other than the point I made above... Yup, agreed. But, water proof socks are so much cheaper than motors.
“Bosch Gen 4 are not that susceptible to magnetic fields or crank strikes these days” …That’s rich, I was directly quoting you earlier in this Gen4 thread where you said to avoid both!
I didn't say they are not at all susceptible? Maybe I should have said 'Not as susceptible'.
I know you have made great strides in keeping OOWarranty motors going, including custom made bearings – well done for that - but I bet even you Pete would love to be able to buy new PCB’s, Sensors and other motor parts from Bosch if reasonably priced and made readily available? Many of us weren’t to know this non-availability when we bought our bikes. Yes I would. And I totally get your point, but there are so many things these days that you can only buy as a complete part. This is why all the mechanics are now fitters.
With regards your mud plugging Levo, do I recall you saying you got into repairing ebike motors because yours had failed and no one could fix it? If so, may I ask what failed? Was it just bearings? It was my old Haibike with a Bosch Gen 2 motor. I was exactly the same as you. Bought my bike, thought it was built to do what a mountain bike does, rode through rivers, hosed it clean and quite quickly the crankshaft and main motor bearing failed. I decided to fix it, found you could not even buy the bearing and like you, I felt this was totally unfair! And did something about it. Since then it has been a very steep learning curve. I have met the manufacturers, discussed all these issues with them. Been to their factories, seen the R&D, seen the test rigs, the sound chambers, the effort. Again, I am on your side and assure you things are changing. I think you maybe 2 or 3 years too early for eBikes.
Well done again for all your work on our motors and considerable time spent answering our queries on this forum. You will no doubt be looking for larger premises and more staff if your aforementioned plans come to fruition. Good luck Pete.
Thank you.
Basically, yes. However, motors are removed for many different reasons, for example thousands of motors are replaced each year under warranty because they creak or they cut out intermittently etc. This is nothing to do with the motor internals, creaking is usually the motor body moving very slightly in the frame, and cutting out is usually the battery, or controller etc. This means the internal parts have a few hundred miles on them, are in excellent condition and can be sustainably used again, instead of going in the bin.
"Our repair stats state exactly the opposite" … I was including the thousands returned to Bosch (and other manufacturers) under and outside warranty that you never see.
Don't worry, we see them. But it makes no difference to the fact that if motors were failing at a phenomenal rate, I would be a very rich man... And I'm not!
"Even off road motorcycles are not submersible" …I disagree, they all are, up to the high up air intake but I know you think water still enters but is evaporated. However, in my (more years than I care to remember) experience this ingress, if any, would form an emulsion and would be evident in the oil. Where would it evaporate to? How would it escape? There is no breather as with 4x4s. I have submerged my KTM 250 (not above the air intake) along with my ride buddies many times in your lovely Dorset (famous for its very deep fords as you know) but none of us have ever found any emulsion. When Enduro M/Cs are completely submerged with the motor running and restarted then the owner is in trouble with emulsion, the oil needs to be changed before restarting. I guess the reason ZF are oil filling their new motors is to offer a small but significant pressure to counter any water ingress and improve corrosion resistance if any ingress were to occur.
Sorry, you kind of missed my point here but no problem. Just have to point out a couple of things here though. You don't tend to get water ingress into a combustion engine because it is generally under positive pressure from the combustion gasses. There are breathers on the motor and this is also where any condensation can get out. If a motor was switched off and left in the water long enough the water will get in through the seals, but to notice tiny amounts of ingress would not be possible, even in just a litre or so of oil. It does take quite a bit of water to show when it emulsifies with the oil.
Sadly, ZF are not using any combustion or pump pressure, so ingress will still be an issue, but as you say, it will definitely improve corrosion resistance.
“If you took that attitude with a motorbike, car, lorry etc. you would also stand the chance of wrecking the motor”. Yes I agree, if you drive your car or lorry too fast across a ford, the bow wave would drown the engine air intake and kill the motor with a hydraulic seize (expensive but repairable with good parts availability) but if the level is below the intake and you drive slow it’s no problem. However with an Enduro M/c the bow wave is not an issue even at speed. What I’m talking about is riding your EMTB into water that if above the level of the crank shaft, will ingress. This would be quite shallow water – around a foot in the case of my 29er full suspension and as I said not easily discernible before entry. What looks shallow and innocuous can be deeper than expected. This is why the motors need to be waterproofed to IP67. Other than the point I made above... Yup, agreed. But, water proof socks are so much cheaper than motors.
“Bosch Gen 4 are not that susceptible to magnetic fields or crank strikes these days” …That’s rich, I was directly quoting you earlier in this Gen4 thread where you said to avoid both!
I didn't say they are not at all susceptible? Maybe I should have said 'Not as susceptible'.
I know you have made great strides in keeping OOWarranty motors going, including custom made bearings – well done for that - but I bet even you Pete would love to be able to buy new PCB’s, Sensors and other motor parts from Bosch if reasonably priced and made readily available? Many of us weren’t to know this non-availability when we bought our bikes. Yes I would. And I totally get your point, but there are so many things these days that you can only buy as a complete part. This is why all the mechanics are now fitters.
With regards your mud plugging Levo, do I recall you saying you got into repairing ebike motors because yours had failed and no one could fix it? If so, may I ask what failed? Was it just bearings? It was my old Haibike with a Bosch Gen 2 motor. I was exactly the same as you. Bought my bike, thought it was built to do what a mountain bike does, rode through rivers, hosed it clean and quite quickly the crankshaft and main motor bearing failed. I decided to fix it, found you could not even buy the bearing and like you, I felt this was totally unfair! And did something about it. Since then it has been a very steep learning curve. I have met the manufacturers, discussed all these issues with them. Been to their factories, seen the R&D, seen the test rigs, the sound chambers, the effort. Again, I am on your side and assure you things are changing. I think you maybe 2 or 3 years too early for eBikes.
Well done again for all your work on our motors and considerable time spent answering our queries on this forum. You will no doubt be looking for larger premises and more staff if your aforementioned plans come to fruition. Good luck Pete.
Thank you.
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