"2nd dead bosch gen 4 motor not happy

[Bearing Man]

Mine has died at about 4.5k miles and just under 3 years old.
Error 500 basic code.
I've done the outer seal kit and bearings as per my video.
Been waiting for Bosch to tell me how much anal plundering it's going to cost for a new motor.

Please don't buy a torque sensor. Unless these get damaged on removal or wet, they rarely give issues. Although they are very misunderstood.
There are 73 different code 500's, although you have not stated the next three digits, none of them are torque sensor related I'm sorry to say. If you can tell me exactly when you get this code 500, I maybe able to diagnose a little closer to the issue.

Do you see the code when:
You first switch on?
You first start to pedal?
After you have ridden (if so how far)?
During your ride (If so, flat or rough ground)?
When you stop?
Did the code start intermittently a few times and now constant?

Worst comes to the worst, just send your motor down and if it's not totalled, we'll fix it for you.

 

[Bones]

Please don't buy a torque sensor. Unless these get damaged on removal or wet, they rarely give issues. Although they are very misunderstood.
There are 73 different code 500's, although you have not stated the next three digits, none of them are torque sensor related I'm sorry to say. If you can tell me exactly when you get this code 500, I maybe able to diagnose a little closer to the issue.

Do you see the code when:
You first switch on?
You first start to pedal?
After you have ridden (if so how far)?
During your ride (If so, flat or rough ground)?
When you stop?
Did the code start intermittently a few times and now constant?

Worst comes to the worst, just send your motor down and if it's not totalled, we'll fix it for you.

Thanks for the reply.
I was told the code but can't remember.
I have had zero problems until now. Bike put away and I went away for 2 weeks.
Put on charge on return and got the error without even moving bike.
Been waiting about 3 weeks for Bosch to decide what they want to do.
I will phone shop tomorrow and get full code.

 

[Wilbur]

I got 4300 miles out of mine and then it died. Water ingress killed the PCB.

Bosch won’t sell PCB’s, so the motor was a basket case. That is just crap.

Managed to get hold of a refurbished motor. That lasted 180 miles and then the clutch jammed. Water ingress again. Repaired free of charge as a good will gesture as motor repairs are not warranted for water ingress.

So I’m wondering how long my motor will last this time. Looking to see what I can do to keep the water out (no hose washing - servicing the seals on a regular basis etc).

But no these motors are not fit for purpose when used on a mountain bike.

As for choosing to ride in the rain. Well I live on the west coast of Scotland – it rains most days. During the summer we’ll usually get a few dry weeks – that’s it.

Yes I love my ebike – it is amazing. But it is ludicrously expensive to keep it running. Every bearing on the bike has been replaced. Full suspension overhaul front and rear. Just ordered a new front wheel as the hub has gone, new hub on the rear last year.

I am conflicted. I love it, but I am fed up shelling out for it. If I can’t find a way of getting more miles out of these motors, I may well just give up on ebikes.

Get a hardtail for wet weather riding. Mtbers have done this since forever. Don't know why ebikers are so slow on the uptake... esp with the cost of new motors etc.

 

[Gareth]

Get a hardtail for wet weather riding.

I'm at a complete loss as to how a motor will last longer in a hardtail than it will a full suspension bike.

 

[Wilbur]

I'm at a complete loss as to how a motor will last longer in a hardtail than it will a full suspension bike.

I present exhibit A...

 

[AF1]

Get a hardtail for wet weather riding. Mtbers have done this since forever. Don't know why ebikers are so slow on the uptake... esp with the cost of new motors etc.

These motors are sold for MTBs, there is an EMTB mode on the computer, they should be fit for purpose. They should be able to get wet, take a shock or be able to get near a magnetic field without issue.

 

[AF1]

The PCB & bearing corrosion issue IMHO is that the water gets in but cannot get out, so all the parts in the bottom of the casing are swimming in water or mud ever after. Surely in the 21st century an effective one way valve could be designed to fit in the bottom of the casing to let the water out?
This water ingress can even be cumulative condensation.

 

[Bearing Man]

The PCB & bearing corrosion issue IMHO is that the water gets in but cannot get out, so all the parts in the bottom of the casing are swimming in water or mud ever after. Surely in the 21st century an effective one way valve could be designed to fit in the bottom of the casing to let the water out?
This water ingress can even be cumulative condensation.

Several motors do have a one way membrane fitted, that allows for internal drying. This does not solve the issue because for water to get into the motor, it must first go through the bearings and this is already the beginning of the end for the bearing. As soon as the water is in their, it starts corrosion, so even if it dries out, the PCB will still continue to deteriorate. The only solution is to keep the water out in the first place.

 

[AF1]

Several motors do have a one way membrane fitted, that allows for internal drying. This does not solve the issue because for water to get into the motor, it must first go through the bearings and this is already the beginning of the end for the bearing. As soon as the water is in their, it starts corrosion, so even if it dries out, the PCB will still continue to deteriorate. The only solution is to keep the water out in the first place.

Stainless steel bearings at manufacture might have helped, but I take your point David. Effective seals would be a step in the right direction. They can do it in other fields - like submersible pumps. And effective waterproof coating on PCBs - ditto.

 

[Bearing Man]

Stainless steel bearings at manufacture might have helped, but I take your point David. Effective seals would be a step in the right direction. They can do it in other fields - like submersible pumps. And effective waterproof coating on PCBs - ditto.

Agreed, although I have written a lot on this forum regards seals, friction and battery range. Nothing is possible without compromise. But, things are changing slowly, and some manufacturers are even warming towards the thought of sustainable eBike motor repair too!

 

[AF1]

Agreed, although I have written a lot on this forum regards seals, friction and battery range. Nothing is possible without compromise. But, things are changing slowly, and some manufacturers are even warming towards the thought of sustainable eBike motor repair too!

Yes, Bosch trumpet their Eco credentials on their corporate website yet throwing good motors away is not ECO. Bosch and the other manufacturers may be forced to make parts available if and when Ebikes are included in the list of goods covered by the UK Right to Repair (RTR) Legislation. The USA might get there first as the RTR movement is far stronger over the pond.

 

[AF1]

Agreed, although I have written a lot on this forum regards seals, friction and battery range. Nothing is possible without compromise. But, things are changing slowly, and some manufacturers are even warming towards the thought of sustainable eBike motor repair too!

I'm not sure I've understood 'calibration' correctly but might it be possible for Bosch to sell Torque Sensors and Circuit Boards as a matched pair, pre-calibrated, if they were to change their repair policy? Or alternatively let repairers like you have the necessary software & hardware to calibrate these sensors? Interestingly the Bosch Rep in this video states that the sensors come from Bosch's Automotive Parts bin!

 

[Bearing Man]

Yes, Bosch trumpet their Eco credentials on their corporate website yet throwing good motors away is not ECO. Bosch and the other manufacturers may be forced to make parts available if and when Ebikes are included in the list of goods covered by the UK Right to Repair (RTR) Legislation. The USA might get there first as the RTR movement is far stronger over the pond.

View attachment 141299

eBike motors have been put in an exempt category. This means, there is no right to repair and they cannot be forced to support people like me

 

[Bearing Man]

I'm not sure I've understood 'calibration' correctly but might it be possible for Bosch to sell Torque Sensors and Circuit Boards as a matched pair, pre-calibrated, if they were to change their repair policy? Or alternatively let repairers like you have the necessary software & hardware to calibrate these sensors? Interestingly the Bosch Rep in this video states that the sensors come from Bosch's Automotive Parts bin!

This was true for the older motors. The Gen 2 Bosch for example, used what was called a Bosch I-bolt for its torque sensor. This I-bolt was used in cars to sense the amount of weight on the passenger seat to decide if it was safe to deploy the passenger airbag or not. These were great and never failed. They also used many of the electronics components from the automotive side too.

 

[AF1]

This was true for the older motors. The Gen 2 Bosch for example, used what was called a Bosch I-bolt for its torque sensor. This I-bolt was used in cars to sense the amount of weight on the passenger seat to decide if it was safe to deploy the passenger airbag or not. These were great and never failed. They also used many of the electronics components from the automotive side too.

I think you may have answered my 2nd point first and missed the 1st: "......might it be possible for Bosch to sell Torque Sensors and Circuit Boards as a matched pair, pre-calibrated, if they were to change their repair policy? Or alternatively let repairers like you have the necessary software & hardware to calibrate these sensors? Interestingly the Bosch Rep in this video"

 

[Bearing Man]

I think you may have answered my 2nd point first and missed the 1st: "......might it be possible for Bosch to sell Torque Sensors and Circuit Boards as a matched pair, pre-calibrated, if they were to change their repair policy? Or alternatively let repairers like you have the necessary software & hardware to calibrate these sensors? Interestingly the Bosch Rep in this video"

Yes, Bosch could do this if they wanted. Brose already support us to this extent, hence the reason we can repair any issue with any Brose motor. Unfortunately, Brose are the only manufacturer so far that see the benefit and true sustainability of this service. Last year I had a long meeting with Bosch, who at the time fully understood what we were asking and the benefits, but currently, there has been no further communication despite my emails.

 

[AF1]

Yes, Bosch could do this if they wanted. Brose already support us to this extent, hence the reason we can repair any issue with any Brose motor. Unfortunately, Brose are the only manufacturer so far that see the benefit and true sustainability of this service. Last year I had a long meeting with Bosch, who at the time fully understood what we were asking and the benefits, but currently, there has been no further communication despite my emails.

Well done, pleased to see you taking a proactive stance towards the "Right to Repair" movement. Lets hope you hear soon when Bosch are going to heed your advice? Difficult to see how Bosch can square their 'Sustainability statement' with their actions to the contrary.

 

[AF1]

Excellent performance and fully repairable to boot. I foresee mass defections

 

[Gareth]

Bosch trumpet their Eco credentials on their corporate website yet throwing good motors away is not ECO. Bosch and the other manufacturers may be forced to make parts available if and when Ebikes are included in the list of goods covered by the UK Right to Repair (RTR) Legislation. The USA might get there first as the RTR movement is far stronger over the pond.

Does that legislation actually exist? All I can find is a ‘Research Briefing’ from September 2021.

I don’t really see the point in any such UK legislation. What I see is the UK doing is what other smaller markets do and following EU regulations.

I really don’t know for sure, but a quick google suggests that the EU right to repair legislation doesn’t cover ebike motors. I get the impression that it covers bicycles just not ebike motors.

So, the determining factor will be the EU. I doubt anybody will pay attention to any such UK legislation (if it exists).

Which also sadly means we have zero real influence on the situation here in the UK.

 

[AF1]

Does that legislation actually exist? All I can find is a ‘Research Briefing’ from September 2021.

I don’t really see the point in any such UK legislation. What I see is the UK doing is what other smaller markets do and following EU regulations.

I really don’t know for sure, but a quick google suggests that the EU right to repair legislation doesn’t cover ebike motors. I get the impression that it covers bicycles just not ebike motors.

So, the determining factor will be the EU. I doubt anybody will pay attention to any such UK legislation (if it exists).

Which also sadly means we have zero real influence on the situation here in the UK.

As I and Bearing Man have said above ebikes are not currently covered but I understand the Legislation would force Bosch to release all parts and any necessary data, harware and software to enable complete repairability if and when covered.

 

[Gareth]

As I and Bearing Man have said above ebikes are not currently covered but I understand the Legislation would force Bosch to release all parts and any necessary data, harware and software to enable complete repairability if and when covered.

Absolutely.

As I said it appears bicycles are covered but not ebike motors.

But I suspect the UK legislation will just mirror the EU legislation, because that’s all it can do.

So any decision will be taken by the EU.

Now it is outside of the EU the UK has no influence on the market whatsoever.

 

[Ark]

View attachment 141361

Excellent performance and fully repairable to boot. I foresee mass defections

The question you asked google or whatever is pure confirmation biased

you get results that favour your outcome, it's not proof of anything

is brose a bad motor - Google Search

It's also why search engines are bad, most people probably don't even realise and live in tunnel vision echo chamber land.

 

[AF1]

The question you asked google or whatever is pure confirmation biased
View attachment 141375

you get results that favour your outcome, it's not proof of anything

is brose a bad motor - Google Search

It's also why search engines are bad, most people probably don't even realise and live in tunnel vision echo chamber land.

You are mistaken. "Excellent performance" is from a review/test and "fully repairable" is from Bearing Man AKA Ebike Motor Centre - www.ebikemotorcentre.com who repair them. You would realise this if you had read the above posts.

 

[AF1]

The new Brose Drive³ Peak looks pretty good on paper. We'll see how affordable when they hit the market. I presume EBMC will be able to fully repair these too.

 

[Tubby G]

I haven’t read this whole thread, just seen the title in the latest posts section.

Canyon service partner / bike shop called me today who’ve had my bike for the last few weeks with an unknown Bosch error. They confirmed the motor is dead and a new one is on its way from Bosch in the next week or two. The bike is less than six months old.

 

[Gareth]

Canyon service partner / bike shop called me today who’ve had my bike for the last few weeks with an unknown Bosch error. They confirmed the motor is dead and a new one is on its way from Bosch in the next week or two. The bike is less than six months old.

How many miles had you covered?

This really is shocking. It is almost OK when you are under warranty.

Seems in the UK I did well riding in all conditions to get 3450 miles (I just checked my notes – earlier I stated 4300 miles, it was actually 3450) – which to put it bluntly is still crap.

The refurb motor I bought lasted 180 miles before it failed. That’s been repaired – as a good will gesture.

Haven’t had much time to get out on the bike recently. Will see what happens next.

I have bought a set of seals, and have a pair of circlip pliers suitable for modification etc so I can clean and grease the seals.

 

[Tubby G]

How many miles had you covered?

This really is shocking. It is almost OK when you are under warranty.

Seems in the UK I did well riding in all conditions to get 3450 miles (I just checked my notes – earlier I stated 4300 miles, it was actually 3450) – which to put it bluntly is still crap.

The refurb motor I bought lasted 180 miles before it failed. That’s been repaired – as a good will gesture.

Haven’t had much time to get out on the bike recently. Will see what happens next.

I have bought a set of seals, and have a pair of circlip pliers suitable for modification etc so I can clean and grease the seals.

Just checked the flow app, 495 miles

I caught the ride that killed it on camera, nothing too wet or testing:

 

[AF1]

Just checked the flow app, 495 miles

I caught the ride that killed it on camera, nothing too wet or testing:

Only thing I can think of is maybe a crank strike, were there any witness marks on either crank? Bearing Man says above that these are susceptible to shocks and magnetism. I can't believe it would be magnetism in that forest. Losing over a month due to a failed motor when its only 6 months old is bad. Why so long to get it sorted?

 

[Tubby G]

Only thing I can think of is maybe a crank strike, were there any witness marks on either crank? Bearing Man says above that these are susceptible to shocks and magnetism. I can't believe it would be magnetism in that forest. Losing over a month due to a failed motor when its only 6 months old is bad. Why so long to get it sorted?

No pedal strikes. I put shorter cranks on the Strive and had zero issues.

It’s actually three weeks since I took my bike to the Canyon Service Partner. At first they thought it was a corroded battery terminal inside the top tube so had that replaced and was told it was ready for collection. However a couple of days later they called me and said it was turning itself off again so they had to speak to Bosch to diagnose further.

The guy was then on holiday for a week, came back this week. After a few tests Bosch have agreed to replace the motor, confirmed yesterday, so just waiting for that now.

 

[RustyMTB]

A thing about forums. They are stuffed with unhappy people who have had a problem. It's just human nature. You buy a bike, the motor fails & as they say, take to the internet. People out there with thousands of miles on their bikes tend not to complain about how great everything is going.

The only people who know how flaky or not the motors are will be the manufacurers & Pete. And one of those two at least is never telling you. The other might or might not.