Update the EP 801 RS with the “classic” SHIMANO EP 801 (RISE 2025) ?

stefighters · Aug 29, 2024

HI Eveyone.

I own an ORBEA RISE LT M10 model 2025 for 2 months.

The EP 801 RS does not give all the power it can give in its RS version compared to a classic SHIMANO version.
Is it possible to update the RISE engine with the EP 801 Classique firmware ?

I imagine that I will lose the SHIMANO warranty but I would like to know if this is possible and especially how.
The store where I bought the bike tells me that it's possible but he refuse to do it...

markloch · Sep 6, 2024

You can change power/torque output using programs like those from emax-tuning though not sure whether you can do it over Bluetooth (via iOS or android app) or if you need the pce02 interface and the windows app (I have the pce02). I was able to do it over BT with the iOS app though not sure if it was because I first used the windows app and pce02. Worth a try with the app though - it’s free.

On my ‘23 Urrun I’ve got “fine tune” profile @ 85nm and 600w. The eco/trail/boost profile I have at more or less stock power and torque, mainly for when I’m using the range extender.

Tony4wd · Sep 7, 2024

If you call other shops you may find one that's happy to install the standard ep801 software. In Australia some shops will and some won't. My 2022 Rise had the standard EP8 software installed by the shop before I took delivery - Shimano doesn't care either way.

stefighters · Sep 9, 2024

thanks for this information. I'll see if emax tuning is compatible with the ep801 rs in bluetooth or wired.
Shimano has just told me that they can do the modification but that I will lose the warranty. fuckers!
I will indeed contact other stores and will keep you informed if this can help other people who have the same need.
indeed, this bike is great but on very technical climbs, it lacks the boost that allows you to pass the obstacle, like on the bosh cx or the classic EP801 ....

Astro66 · Sep 10, 2024

Just keep in mind the battery isn't designed for full power. It will probably be fine, but nothing kills batteries quicker than overheating from excess power draw. That's why it will void your warranty.

Tony4wd · Sep 10, 2024

stefighters said:
Shimano has just told me that they can do the modification but that I will lose the warranty

My shop said the warranty would still be valid on my 2022 Rise when they changed to EP8 software, but you never know what will happen at claim time. Partly to compensate for warranty denials I'll only buy expensive new bikes at a big discount (40% off back when I bought my Rise).

stefighters · Sep 10, 2024

Astro66 said:
Just keep in mind the battery isn't designed for full power. It will probably be fine, but nothing kills batteries quicker than overheating from excess power draw. That's why it will void your warranty.

thanks. the only thing i need on this bike is a real boost mode with the 600w available in peak. the ep801 rs is stuck at 400w peak in boost mode. i will never use this possibility for long

markloch · Sep 12, 2024

Astro66 said:
Just keep in mind the battery isn't designed for full power. It will probably be fine, but nothing kills batteries quicker than overheating from excess power draw. That's why it will void your warranty

elsewhere there’s a conversation about this.

I have an Orbea Urrun, 540wh battery and the 801-RS. Orbea sells more or less same bike - the Kemen - as an urban bike (same frame and battery but taller and fewer gears, less fork travel, fenders etc) but with the full-fat 801 motor @ 85nm (though not sure if it’s power restricted to something less that 600w).

Meanwhile there’s the 242wh range extender which certainly can’t draw 600w.

Someone who understands batteries way better than I ran the numbers and calculated the 540wh battery could handle 600w.

(Post in thread 'Ep8 rs full power'
Ep8 rs full power)

So I have profile #2 ‘fine tune’ maxxing out at 85nm and 500w (or 600, I may have bumped it up).

Profile #1 is more or less stock RS eco/trail/boost power but with higher torque. When the range extender is powering the motor I use this profile.

I’ve found for all but my steeper climbs profile #1 works for me, though makes me work a little harder.

That said I’ve thought to bump #1 power settings from 150/250/350 to 200/300/400 if I can get a battery wizard to OK it. Why? My understanding is that the “RS 2.0” supports 85nm and 400w, and I’m wondering if they max it at 400w so it will support the 242wh battery …

Astro66 · Sep 13, 2024

markloch said:
elsewhere there’s a conversation about this.

I work in heat calculations. When I design installations, I calculate the heat load being created, and the ability of the installation to dissipate the heat.

Just because a battery can output a power level. It doesn't mean the battery installation was designed for that power level.

I'm sure it will be fine in 90% of cases. But if the bike designer factored in heat dissipation into the design of the battery and it's mounting. It would have been at the bikes rated power level. Increased power level would definitely impact temperature levels of the battery, especially as heat produced is proportional to the current squared.

Merida have designed air vents into the top of some of their carbon frames, specifically to improve heat dissipation from the battery and increase battery life.

Backflip · Oct 31, 2024

Astro66 said:
I work in heat calculations. When I design installations, I calculate the heat load being created, and the ability of the installation to dissipate the heat.

Just because a battery can output a power level. It doesn't mean the battery installation was designed for that power level.

I'm sure it will be fine in 90% of cases. But if the bike designer factored in heat dissipation into the design of the battery and it's mounting. It would have been at the bikes rated power level. Increased power level would definitely impact temperature levels of the battery, especially as heat produced is proportional to the current squared.

Merida have designed air vents into the top of some of their carbon frames, specifically to improve heat dissipation from the battery and increase battery life.

I absolutely agree with these words.
However, Shimano´s thermal protection system is very sensitive and works perfectly.
So if motor or battery will get to hot due to excessive currents (which also can be on a "non-modified" bike due to extremely hot environment, continuous stiff uphill, high weight of bike and biker), then this thermal protection system will (temporarily) decrease the output of the drive unit or even power off the system and a warning or error will be shown on the bike display and in the internal protocol.
Regarding increased values for max. peak power and max. torque for Orbea reduced "RS" drive units:
You easily can use these values if you only use the internal battery.

However when also using some early production range extenders (with some early firmware version of the BMS which is the internal electronics of the battery pack), it may happen that this range extender may not be able (also due to the cabling connection from the range extender to the bike) to deliver the necessary high currents.
In this case it may be the case that the bike will switch off (however can be switched on instantly again).
This will not do any harm to the bike, however, for sure it can be quite annoying, especially going uphill on hard trails.
This is why with some of these range extenders it may be useful not to use the highest performance mode to prevent this situation, especially if the current range extender level is already quite low (which might increase the risk of such a power off situation).
So, if you are using a range extender on an Orbea bike and you also have increased max. peak power and max. torque to the default values of the standard Shimano drive unit (e.g. 500W and 85Nm on a DU-EP800 or DU-EP600 and 600W and 85Nm on a DU-EP801), then just give it a try if your range extender will react this way in an easy manageable environment with some stiff hills and range exender with already low level, so then you know if you are "at risk" of such a situation when using the range extender.

b33k34 · Nov 1, 2024

What is the impact of the reduced power (rather than torque) on the Rise? I was thinking it would mean you'd get up something just as steep as on a unrestricted bike, but not quite as quickly?

Backflip · Nov 1, 2024

b33k34 said:
What is the impact of the reduced power (rather than torque) on the Rise? I was thinking it would mean you'd get up something just as steep as on a unrestricted bike, but not quite as quickly?

As long as you don´t reach one of the 2 currently programmed limits (either max. torque or max. peak power) of the drive unit, you will go up the hill with the same speed. The peak power value (like also the max. torque value) is just a limiting value for the motor and if you don´t reach this limit in normal riding conditions, everything will stay exactly the same.
Maybe see also this post.
However, if you will hit one of these programmed limits (e.g. the reduced max. peak power), then either you will be slower going uphill or you have to pedal harder by yourself (so you need to invest the power that the drive unit will not give anymore) to go uphill with the same speed or within the same time.
For going uphill in a certain time at the same circumstances, you always need a certain amount of energy and if you don´t get this energy from the drive unit anymore, then you are the one you need to give it to the bike, otherwise you will be slower.

stefighters · Nov 9, 2024

I have been riding for two months with the engine derestricted. I set the trail modes to 500w max peak and 600w peak for boost mode.
no overheating to date. for information, I have a 630w battery and no extender.

Dirtyrig · Feb 7, 2025

stefighters said:
I have been riding for two months with the engine derestricted. I set the trail modes to 500w max peak and 600w peak for boost mode.
no overheating to date. for information, I have a 630w battery and no extender.

What did you do to derestrict?

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

I used the emax tuning app :

Home EN – eMax Tuning

www.emax-tuning.com

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

stefighters said:
I used the emax tuning app :

Home EN – eMax Tuning

www.emax-tuning.com

BTW & take care: With the latest motor firmware 4.4.1 of the DU-EP801 and DU-EP600 it is NO more possible to change max. peak power and max. torque range values via Bluetooth based eMaxMobileApp (for iOS and Android)!
However, you still easily can change these values with a cable bound PCE - interface and the Windows based miniMax - program already in the licence key and so free of charge version. See also in chapter 12 of this document.
Best is not to update at all to the latest motor firmware 4.4.1, because this version does not give any single advantage...

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

I have been using this app for 6 months. It worked with Bluetooth. Ask the seller. I am sure that a new version will bring back this functionality.

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

stefighters said:
I have been using this app for 6 months. It worked with Bluetooth. Ask the seller. I am sure that a new version will bring back this functionality.

Sure, changing max. peak power and max. torque range also worked via Bluetooth for the DU-EP801 and DU-EP600 before motor firmware 4.4.0, but it will not work anymore via Bluetooth starting with this new motor firmware version!
And I don´t have to ask the seller for this...
Just have a look to the latest version of the document I have linked before, because this document already covers the latest version 1.84 of eMaxMobileApp and also the latest motor firmware 4.4.1.
So again: starting with motor firmware 4.4.0 Shimano (on purpose) has completely removed the access to max. motor peak power and max. torque range via BLUETOOTH!
So, the only way to change this settings in the future starting with this motor firmware version is via a cable bound interface.
So, don´t update to the latest motor firmware 4.4.1 if you still want to change these settings via eMaxMobileApp!

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

Dont hésitâte to contact Markus Info@eMax-Tuning.com

he is passionate about what he does and responds quickly to all your questions.

It's strange because I just tried again just now. I can still modify the peak power up to 600w and the torque. maybe because I had done the manipulation before the firmware change. wearing I have version 4.4.1.
in the worst case, do not hesitate to use the shimano cable interface. It doesn't cost much and the modification of the peak power completely changes the cell.

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

So I have contacted Markus from eMax-Tuning (which I already contacted a lot in the past and so know him very well) just some minutes ago and he confirmed my written information in my previous post before that it is no more possible to change the values for max. peak power and max. torque range via Bluetooth starting with motor firmware. 4.4.0 for the DU-EP801 and DU-EP600 drive units.
As written before in another post by myself, Markus and the guys from eMax currently do not have time to also write posts in this forum because they are quite busy and already heavily involved in German forums, see e.g. here. However he regularly watches my posts here and will write to me as soon as I will write any wrong information...

So, ideally please show us a screenshot of your bike information read with eMaxMobileApp which indicates the current motor firmware 4.4.1 and also some screenshots where you successfully have changed these values via Bluetooth (e.g. back to "RS" settings and then again to max. default values of a DU-EP801 drive unit, so e.g. 600W and 85Nm) with this currently latest motor firmware 4.4.1.
In this way we can find the differences and what exactly caused your bike to be still working to change these values via Bluetooth with the latest motor firmware 4.4.1.
Please also describe what type of components you are using on your bike (DU-EP801-RS drive unit?, SW-EN600-L remote control?, SC-EN600 display?, electronic Di2 derailleur?, battery type size 360Wh, 420Wh, 540Wh or 630Wh?).
And "no", it has nothing to do with the fact that you have changed these values already with a previous motor firmware.
In this way we should be easily able to find why your bike behaves different than others...

Also please don´t mix things: For sure you still can adjust BASIC and FineTune settings with the Bluetooth based E-Tube-Cyclist app from Shimano also with latest motor firmware 4.4.1, but you cannot change max. peak power and max. torque range via Bluetooth based eMaxMobileApp anymore! But, as written before, still no problem to change these values via PCE - interface and Windows based miniMax - program.

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

calm down calm down! I'm trying to help. we are not in an arena playing for our lives. we're talking about bike.

indeed, looking closely at the application (which I had not used for 6 months), I realized that I was on version 4.3.0.

that's why I can still change the settings whether in basic mode or in fine tune. so I'm going to stay on this version of the firmware which works very well.

And the day I need it, I'll use the PCE interface.

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

stefighters said:
It's strange because I just tried again just now. I can still modify the peak power up to 600w and the torque. maybe because I had done the manipulation before the firmware change. wearing I have version 4.4.1.

stefighters said:
calm down calm down! I'm trying to help. we are not in an arena playing for our lives. we're talking about bike.

indeed, looking closely at the application (which I had not used for 6 months), I realized that I was on version 4.3.0.

that's why I can still change the settings whether in basic mode or in fine tune. so I'm going to stay on this version of the firmware which works very well.

And the day I need it, I'll use the PCE interface.

Thanks for your reply and confirmation that you are NOT using the latest motor firmware 4.4.1.

Sure, calming down is always a good idea in life, but stating publicly that you can change these settings for max. peak power and max torque range also with the latest motor firmware 4.4.1 also via Bluetooth (like you wrongly did) can make others (especially Orbea riders with reduced "RS" drive unit) think they can easily update their bike and then they realize that they cannot change these values anymore.
And not everybody has such a great PCE - interface and so these people can easily get stuck in a quite annoying situation which I wanted to prevent. Nothing more, nothing less...
So, I think it was absolutely fine to place this quite important (and correct) information here, don´t you think so?
BTW.: I am also just "trying to help"...

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

of course. but there is a way to ask things. especially since I have other things to do than try to help someone I don't know on a forum...

the form is as important as the content... don't you think?

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

stefighters said:
of course. but there is a way to ask things. especially since I have other things to do than try to help someone I don't know on a forum...

the form is as important as the content... don't you think?

Look, I see it that way: You posted definitely some wrong information which can "harm" some others (or at least their bikes) and you are not able to at least say "sorry" for that. But ok, I am out of that game...

stefighters · Feb 8, 2025

In the end, why are you asking for help when you are perfectly aware? Why should I apologize for wanting to help you? firmware 4.4.0 was released on January 22... I tried to help you with the information I had so far.

BAh30 · Feb 8, 2025

Can this also be done on a ep6 rs (24 Rise H30)?

Backflip · Feb 8, 2025

BAh30 said:
Can this also be done on a ep6 rs (24 Rise H30)?

On an EP6-RS, you can change max. peak power (up to max. 500W on a DU-EP600) and max. torque range (up to max. 85Nm) as long as you currently have installed a motor firmware equal or less than 4.3.0 via the eMax - software tools (Bluetooth based eMaxMobileApp for iOS and Android or Windows based miniMax - program) already in the licence key free mode, see in chapter 12 of this document.
If you are already above this motor firmware and have installed motor firmware 4.4.1, then these settings can only be changed via cable bound SM-PCE1 or SM-PCE02 interface and the Windows based miniMax - program, but no more via Bluetooth. Maybe this forum post may be interesting too.

BAh30 · Feb 8, 2025

Thanks. The e tube app calimedi have firmware version 4.3.0 on the bike now and i didnt load the available 4.4.1 update so i should be good. I got the eMAX app from playstore will use the it to change power and torque.

Backflip · Feb 9, 2025

BAh30 said:
Thanks. The e tube app calimedi have firmware version 4.3.1 on the bike now and i didnt load the available 4.4.1 update so i should be good. I got the eMAX app from playstore will use the it to change power and torque.

Thanks for the information, however please try to be as exact as possible to avoid misunderstandings for other forum members: There never was, is and will be a motor firmware version 4.3.1 for the DU-EP600 (EP6) drive unit!
So most probably you are still using motor firmware 4.3.0 which is fine for changing max. peak power and max. torque range via Bluetooth based eMaxMobileApp.
See also this official link to Shimano´s firmware versions (go down, select "Firmware Updates" and then "Filter by Model No", then select "DU-EP600"):

In this official chart of Shimano there is one "inofficial" motor firmware 4.4.0 missing which Shimano was releasing on January, 16th but was removed from their servers again one day later on January, 17th due to some bugs in their firmware. So, everybody who is still using this buggy and intermediate version 4.4.0 should update to 4.4.1 soon to avoid failures.

Also you are not changing just "torque", but "max. torque range" with the eMaxMobileApp! There is a big differnce in this wording.
Torque in the individual settings of BASIC and/or FineTune mode of the 2 profiles of a DU-EP801 or DU-EP600 drive unit cannot be changed by eMaxMobileApp, but by the E-Tube-Project - software (Bluetooth based Cyclist app and Windows based Professional program) from Shimano (depending on the max. torque range you have changed by eMaxMobileApp).
Sorry to be maybe a bit pedantic by myself, but in my eyes this is crucial to create valuable and good quality content for others.

BAh30 · Feb 9, 2025

Ok. Thanks.

Once ive made the changes using the eMax app, will the new values be reflected on the e-tube app as well?

Di you have any idea how the battery will be impacted by the changes

Update the EP 801 RS with the “classic” SHIMANO EP 801 (RISE 2025) ?

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