lar1337
Member
Why thanks you must be in charge round here......I've been looking for someone to blame 
Levo Gen 4 Levo Gen 4 2023/4/5/6 Rumours...
- Thread starter Eduardoramundo
- Start date
Always plenty of kit changers who believe that new kit makes them better at something. The terms "innovation" and "game changer" attached to minor upgrades always guarantees a queue of mugs. Same in all recreational sports and pastimes.
in standard tune the Bosch CX gen4 needs a relatively high cadence..ie 70+. I ride with a mate on a Levo and it is clear he achieves the same amount of assist as me at 70 at c 50. That was until I used the Flow app to tune the motor response. Now I get good power assist at really low cadence and it stays strong right up to 85.(I dont know if the Bosch gen5 is any different in that respect). I would be very reluctant to use a bike with any other motor if it could not match how my motor responds having done the tuning in the Flow App!@gbcoke I agree, even the 85/90Nm bikes are to powerful for majority of today's drivetrains, a single wrong shift can ruin your day, there is basically only 1 drivetrain specifically made for ebike the Shimano CUES lineup with the Linkglide tech parts, and it's been pretty scarce on new bikes so far. Transmission is most probably as strong but imo still not specifically made for ebikes in terms of durability/longevity.
The battery consumption is definitely going to suffer but in my opinion it won't be as noticeable because in the meanwhile most of the new generaton bikes come with energy denser 21700 or 22700 cells that are slightly more efficient overall. But yes at the end someone pushing a 100Nm bike on turbo will definitely suffer at battery consumption more then one with 85Nm(pure physics) when on the same battery size.
I guess each one of us has valid points for their own useage pattern, at the end let's be honest, having a wider choice is always better and more competition should in theory be better for all of us due to pricing, but maybe also not, strange times these days...
@Mikerb you beat me to the torque/cadence thoughts with your postHere some of my thoughts on the power wars etc...
If Spesh really went triple digit on Nm, I am interested on a first lab test and how their torque/cadence curve window will look, as in one of their interviews they said they are not going full power numbers like the rest but have more focus on rideability hence the focus on the torque/cadence curve, from a technical point of view that would mean they didn't go full power figures as
the basic formula tells us:
lower the power , higher the force at lower rpm.
P(W) = F(Nm) x rpm.
Power in layman's terms is good for maintaining high speed and getting there fast, but Torque is good for pulling heavy loads in a straight or uphill consistently.
Now where(cadence window) this Torque is avaliable depends, one, on the motor power number, two, on the mechanical construction of the motor and it's tuning of the cadence curve.
So If they left the power figures a bit lower then the competition and rose the torque comparable, that would imply to a system with a wideee torque/cadence curve in layman's terms a diesel like feeling of the motor, a lot of grunt down low/strong pulling power at a low cadence and troughout the cadence range, this should also aid to a lower battery consumption.
For comparison from all the tests the Avinox motor really comes alive at high cadences, this implies to high power figures - which is as we know true, but it also showes a real life pretty high battery consumption at these figures.
Spesh had a looot of time for testing and fine tuning the motor behavior, also after watching the german test of the new Brose Drive PeakĀ³ a while ago, where they say the feel of the motor is pretty much the same ćBrose Feeling ć I have a hunch it's going te be a realy good powerful feeling motor capable of impressive efficiency especially also because it's a 48V system. There is only one question and only time will tell how the reliability will be, but as it's taking a while, I guess Brose had also a looot of time to do proper real life testing which is good.
As this thread is most probably coming to it's peak I will just say I am looking forward for the new option on the market.
One thing I am definitely not looking forward for the pricing as if what is being said, IMO the industry has gone nuts and hope someone is listening/reading.
Saying for myself and the people I talk to around here in the emtb community, a lot are not fond on buying a new bike if the prices go up even more, the previous bikes were crazy expensive and even now at discounted prices are a hard sell as a most people already have solid used bikes that also are a hard sell when trying so.
So if the prices go up I think the sales are gonna be really hard, that's why Spesh is probably releasing the small batch top spec to lure out those with money that want the latest and greatest no questions asked and the so called "dentists" sorry if I offended someone.
ļø
Hey guys this is a direct Google translate of the text from the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak pre production motor test on the german emtb-news portal from last year...some good info I'd say...
________________
Brose:
Our idea was to develop a new engine that was long-lasting, low-maintenance and very quiet.
Tester:
From the first few meters you can notice that the DriveĀ³ Peak has more punch than its predecessor and does its job very quietly.
According to the manufacturer, the motor delivers a maximum torque of 95 Nm with a peak output of 600 W.
On the trail, as is already the case with the Brose Drive S Mag, it pushes very confidently, powerfully, continuously and reacts sensitively and sensitive to every pedal pressure. When stationary, if you keep your foot on the pedal, there is absolutely nothing twitching, unlike other power packs over 90 Nm.
Brose has implemented Eco, Tour, OneMode (a progressive mode, similar to Bosch's eMTB mode) and Boost as support modes. But that's not all, because as a special treat, the DriveĀ³ has been given an additional mode - which can be activated separately from any other mode level using a separate button - called "Punch" in which the motor briefly runs at maximum power and pushes and supports even at low cadence levels. This mode is fun when you get down to business, but it also requires control, because unlike the Boost mode - comparable to Turbo with Bosch or Boost with Shimano - the support in the punch is less homogeneous and feels a bit uncouth and aggressive ā Just full throttle.
At the 25 speed limit, the pedal twitches under my feet and the bike can't decide whether to push or not to push. In technical borderline situations or in racing, this is hardly a problem, but if you just want to cruise along the forest path, it's a little annoying at the moment. Brose is still coordinating here and told me that the characteristics of this mode are not yet final.
The motor support was avaliable over a very wide cadence band. The motor doesn't hit any peaks or capers in any direction. Even as a prototype (B-model status), the Brose DriveĀ³ performed its job at a very high level and on a very broad foundation - this is precisely what makes it a top all-rounder. In just a few words I would describe the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor as follows: A cultivated powerhouse with a real Brose feeling and a worthy successor to the Brose Drive S Mag.
How quiet is the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor? Even without a belt, the motor is quiet in operation, very quiet in fact! At low cadence you almost can't hear it, at high cadence (from around 90 revolutions per minute) it gets a little louder. However, it is actually only audible when it has to shuttle, i.e. the motor has to push with a lot of power when little of your own power is being put into the pedal. I would definitely classify it as quieter than, for example, a Bosch Performance CX Gen4, Shimano EP801 and even a Brose Drive S Mag. On the flat, the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor is virtually inaudible and even when it has to shuttle, it works very quietly and is acoustically absolutely inconspicuous.
I would like to say one thing at the end: We did not drive a system ready for series production, but rather a B model, i.e. close to series production. I.e. Here the product is almost completely correct, but is not yet 100% standard. Brose told us that the motor was 100% final, but the software installed on our test bike was only about 90% final. But Brose is definitely on the home stretch and I'm pretty sure that we will see a new e-bike with the new Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor soon.
_________________
IMO Looks promising and in line what Spesh were getting at in their interview of torque/cadence priority over power, now they of course tweaked the software a bit their way...so some difference will surely be there but it's a good picture what could beļø
________________
Brose:
Our idea was to develop a new engine that was long-lasting, low-maintenance and very quiet.
Tester:
From the first few meters you can notice that the DriveĀ³ Peak has more punch than its predecessor and does its job very quietly.
According to the manufacturer, the motor delivers a maximum torque of 95 Nm with a peak output of 600 W.
On the trail, as is already the case with the Brose Drive S Mag, it pushes very confidently, powerfully, continuously and reacts sensitively and sensitive to every pedal pressure. When stationary, if you keep your foot on the pedal, there is absolutely nothing twitching, unlike other power packs over 90 Nm.
Brose has implemented Eco, Tour, OneMode (a progressive mode, similar to Bosch's eMTB mode) and Boost as support modes. But that's not all, because as a special treat, the DriveĀ³ has been given an additional mode - which can be activated separately from any other mode level using a separate button - called "Punch" in which the motor briefly runs at maximum power and pushes and supports even at low cadence levels. This mode is fun when you get down to business, but it also requires control, because unlike the Boost mode - comparable to Turbo with Bosch or Boost with Shimano - the support in the punch is less homogeneous and feels a bit uncouth and aggressive ā Just full throttle.
At the 25 speed limit, the pedal twitches under my feet and the bike can't decide whether to push or not to push. In technical borderline situations or in racing, this is hardly a problem, but if you just want to cruise along the forest path, it's a little annoying at the moment. Brose is still coordinating here and told me that the characteristics of this mode are not yet final.
The motor support was avaliable over a very wide cadence band. The motor doesn't hit any peaks or capers in any direction. Even as a prototype (B-model status), the Brose DriveĀ³ performed its job at a very high level and on a very broad foundation - this is precisely what makes it a top all-rounder. In just a few words I would describe the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor as follows: A cultivated powerhouse with a real Brose feeling and a worthy successor to the Brose Drive S Mag.
How quiet is the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor? Even without a belt, the motor is quiet in operation, very quiet in fact! At low cadence you almost can't hear it, at high cadence (from around 90 revolutions per minute) it gets a little louder. However, it is actually only audible when it has to shuttle, i.e. the motor has to push with a lot of power when little of your own power is being put into the pedal. I would definitely classify it as quieter than, for example, a Bosch Performance CX Gen4, Shimano EP801 and even a Brose Drive S Mag. On the flat, the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor is virtually inaudible and even when it has to shuttle, it works very quietly and is acoustically absolutely inconspicuous.
I would like to say one thing at the end: We did not drive a system ready for series production, but rather a B model, i.e. close to series production. I.e. Here the product is almost completely correct, but is not yet 100% standard. Brose told us that the motor was 100% final, but the software installed on our test bike was only about 90% final. But Brose is definitely on the home stretch and I'm pretty sure that we will see a new e-bike with the new Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor soon.
_________________
IMO Looks promising and in line what Spesh were getting at in their interview of torque/cadence priority over power, now they of course tweaked the software a bit their way...so some difference will surely be there but it's a good picture what could be
ļø
lar1337
Member
No it isn'tHey guys this is a direct Google translate of the text from the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak pre production motor test on the german emtb-news portal from last year...some good info I'd say...
________________
Brose:
Our idea was to develop a new engine that was long-lasting, low-maintenance and very quiet.
Tester:
From the first few meters you can notice that the DriveĀ³ Peak has more punch than its predecessor and does its job very quietly.
According to the manufacturer, the motor delivers a maximum torque of 95 Nm with a peak output of 600 W.
On the trail, as is already the case with the Brose Drive S Mag, it pushes very confidently, powerfully, continuously and reacts sensitively and sensitive to every pedal pressure. When stationary, if you keep your foot on the pedal, there is absolutely nothing twitching, unlike other power packs over 90 Nm.
Brose has implemented Eco, Tour, OneMode (a progressive mode, similar to Bosch's eMTB mode) and Boost as support modes. But that's not all, because as a special treat, the DriveĀ³ has been given an additional mode - which can be activated separately from any other mode level using a separate button - called "Punch" in which the motor briefly runs at maximum power and pushes and supports even at low cadence levels. This mode is fun when you get down to business, but it also requires control, because unlike the Boost mode - comparable to Turbo with Bosch or Boost with Shimano - the support in the punch is less homogeneous and feels a bit uncouth and aggressive ā Just full throttle.
At the 25 speed limit, the pedal twitches under my feet and the bike can't decide whether to push or not to push. In technical borderline situations or in racing, this is hardly a problem, but if you just want to cruise along the forest path, it's a little annoying at the moment. Brose is still coordinating here and told me that the characteristics of this mode are not yet final.
The motor support was avaliable over a very wide cadence band. The motor doesn't hit any peaks or capers in any direction. Even as a prototype (B-model status), the Brose DriveĀ³ performed its job at a very high level and on a very broad foundation - this is precisely what makes it a top all-rounder. In just a few words I would describe the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor as follows: A cultivated powerhouse with a real Brose feeling and a worthy successor to the Brose Drive S Mag.
How quiet is the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor? Even without a belt, the motor is quiet in operation, very quiet in fact! At low cadence you almost can't hear it, at high cadence (from around 90 revolutions per minute) it gets a little louder. However, it is actually only audible when it has to shuttle, i.e. the motor has to push with a lot of power when little of your own power is being put into the pedal. I would definitely classify it as quieter than, for example, a Bosch Performance CX Gen4, Shimano EP801 and even a Brose Drive S Mag. On the flat, the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor is virtually inaudible and even when it has to shuttle, it works very quietly and is acoustically absolutely inconspicuous.
I would like to say one thing at the end: We did not drive a system ready for series production, but rather a B model, i.e. close to series production. I.e. Here the product is almost completely correct, but is not yet 100% standard. Brose told us that the motor was 100% final, but the software installed on our test bike was only about 90% final. But Brose is definitely on the home stretch and I'm pretty sure that we will see a new e-bike with the new Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor soon.
_________________
IMO Looks promising and in line what Spesh were getting at in their interview of torque/cadence priority over power, now they of course tweaked the software a bit their way...so some difference will surely be there but it's a good picture what could be
Regarding potential future tariffs, Specialized manufactures almost all of its bikes in Taiwan. Gen1, 2 and 3 Levo's are all made in Taiwan, I would assume the same will be true for Gen 4 Levos.
In other words emulating bosch gen 5 which is the benchmark.Hey guys this is a direct Google translate of the text from the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak pre production motor test on the german emtb-news portal from last year...some good info I'd say...
________________
Brose:
Our idea was to develop a new engine that was long-lasting, low-maintenance and very quiet.
Tester:
From the first few meters you can notice that the DriveĀ³ Peak has more punch than its predecessor and does its job very quietly.
According to the manufacturer, the motor delivers a maximum torque of 95 Nm with a peak output of 600 W.
On the trail, as is already the case with the Brose Drive S Mag, it pushes very confidently, powerfully, continuously and reacts sensitively and sensitive to every pedal pressure. When stationary, if you keep your foot on the pedal, there is absolutely nothing twitching, unlike other power packs over 90 Nm.
Brose has implemented Eco, Tour, OneMode (a progressive mode, similar to Bosch's eMTB mode) and Boost as support modes. But that's not all, because as a special treat, the DriveĀ³ has been given an additional mode - which can be activated separately from any other mode level using a separate button - called "Punch" in which the motor briefly runs at maximum power and pushes and supports even at low cadence levels. This mode is fun when you get down to business, but it also requires control, because unlike the Boost mode - comparable to Turbo with Bosch or Boost with Shimano - the support in the punch is less homogeneous and feels a bit uncouth and aggressive ā Just full throttle.
At the 25 speed limit, the pedal twitches under my feet and the bike can't decide whether to push or not to push. In technical borderline situations or in racing, this is hardly a problem, but if you just want to cruise along the forest path, it's a little annoying at the moment. Brose is still coordinating here and told me that the characteristics of this mode are not yet final.
The motor support was avaliable over a very wide cadence band. The motor doesn't hit any peaks or capers in any direction. Even as a prototype (B-model status), the Brose DriveĀ³ performed its job at a very high level and on a very broad foundation - this is precisely what makes it a top all-rounder. In just a few words I would describe the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor as follows: A cultivated powerhouse with a real Brose feeling and a worthy successor to the Brose Drive S Mag.
How quiet is the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor? Even without a belt, the motor is quiet in operation, very quiet in fact! At low cadence you almost can't hear it, at high cadence (from around 90 revolutions per minute) it gets a little louder. However, it is actually only audible when it has to shuttle, i.e. the motor has to push with a lot of power when little of your own power is being put into the pedal. I would definitely classify it as quieter than, for example, a Bosch Performance CX Gen4, Shimano EP801 and even a Brose Drive S Mag. On the flat, the Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor is virtually inaudible and even when it has to shuttle, it works very quietly and is acoustically absolutely inconspicuous.
I would like to say one thing at the end: We did not drive a system ready for series production, but rather a B model, i.e. close to series production. I.e. Here the product is almost completely correct, but is not yet 100% standard. Brose told us that the motor was 100% final, but the software installed on our test bike was only about 90% final. But Brose is definitely on the home stretch and I'm pretty sure that we will see a new e-bike with the new Brose DriveĀ³ Peak motor soon.
_________________
IMO Looks promising and in line what Spesh were getting at in their interview of torque/cadence priority over power, now they of course tweaked the software a bit their way...so some difference will surely be there but it's a good picture what could be
What do you mean?No it isn't
November 25 now.
smalltablehop
New Member
GTA VI before Levo Gen4
Double l
Member
Alex the bike tester has just spilled the beans by the looks of it
Eduardoramundo
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #1,487
Agreed. Waste of time. He has basically just read this thread
tonk
Member
From that it sounds like they have built a ebike same as most brands nowadays but letās see .
SimonDee
Member
Engineering is usually a process of refinement. I can't see any step changes in ebikes until say solid state batteries push up energy densities and we can lose another kilo. You need a frame, fork, divetrain, wheels, tyres etc etc and they are all highly developed already. My hunch is not to expect too much of the new Levo right now.
DuncanDoughnuts
Active member
I was so exited for this new Levo ... and then yesterday I had the most incredible ride on my Gen3 Expert ...... Now not so much anymore...
still love to see what they do... but the new bike urge has faded somewhat for me.
I also feel with all this expectation there is going to be some disappointment. But I guess we will know in November
still love to see what they do... but the new bike urge has faded somewhat for me.
I also feel with all this expectation there is going to be some disappointment. But I guess we will know in November
I was so exited for this new Levo ... and then yesterday I had the most incredible ride on my Gen3 Expert ...... Now not so much anymore...
still love to see what they do... but the new bike urge has faded somewhat for me.
I also feel with all this expectation there is going to be some disappointment. But I guess we will know in November
If it comes out in November they might as well start again.
Eduardoramundo
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #1,492
The biggest benefit for me will be the ability for a rear 29ā wheel, as I have long legs. My Spesh Enduro is a 29er and rides great.
This is often my advice for anybody suffering from NBAS (New Bike Aquisition Syndrome) but then I donāt manufacture bikes or own a bike shop!
Most current e-bikes, or even those from a few years back, are actually pretty good already. Going out for a ride on whatever youāve got is a good way of reminding yourself of that.
Itās incremental gains now, even more power is just that, manufacturers need to keep pushing something otherwise we wouldnāt buy any new bikes right? At the moment itās more powerful motors, 2 or 3 years back it was lighter weight, next cycle itāll be what?
Just get out and ride folks!
This is so true! im guilty of wanting something shiny but i have friends who have had the same ebike since 2019/20 and the difference is still marginal.
DuncanDoughnuts
Active member
I ofter run my Gen3 with a 29er rear wheel. In the long position and I can fit a DRR 2.4 in the back.
Well said... but if I could dream... I would like to see those silicon anode batteries (Sila, Group14) that really look like the next-gen batteries and look like they are starting to get used in other products, enter the e-bike market. I would think that if we use these, we can get to 250wh/kg and then we can get a full-power e-bike with 625wh battery pushing the boundaries of 5kg for battery+motor( thinking of dji motor being 2.5kg and not adding the extra weight from displays,cabling etc.). I think that should be possible pretty soon, but if it can happen for the new Levo..not so sure. Solid state batteries I think need a few more years to become reality, but they will be a significant improvement. Just wondering..although getting a bit out of topic,Does anyone know what tech is used in amflow batteries, the claim 213wh/kg, but is it some really next-gen or just an improved design and packaging of current lithium cells?
SimonDee
Member
I haven't seen anything regarding which cells they use but DJI batteries are 200g lighter than the new Bosch power tubes like for like. They are both 36V. My hunch is that the cell configuration will be the same to achieve that voltage with similar capacities, so DJI either has a very light hardware design or they have smaller lighter cells and are running them harder in a wider window perhaps.
April is the release date Iāve heard. No more belt drive either. Got a few other bits but donāt know whatās allowed to be shared.
Just tell us everything you know, then we will work out whats allowed and whats not.....
But, but, but, manufacturer Brose is primarily a motor manufacturer specialising in motors typically with belt drives. Wot, no belt drive? Does not compute.
"Electric motors and drives
Brose supplies more than 200 million electric motors and drives every year making it a market leader. Our products are used in the HVAC and engine cooling, in the drive train as well as in steering and braking systems. They also operate window regulators, seats, liftgates and side doors. Our motors and drives are available in a power range of 20 to 15,000 watts and voltages of 12 to 810 volts."
