Will the new pinion motor/gearbox make it's way onto the Voima?

[darwink1]

I was very close to putting in a Voima order but recently saw that Pinion is making a motor with an integrated gearbox. I believe this will be the norm in a few years, at least when it comes to ebikes, and am now considering waiting to see who adopts this new tech.

Since Pole manufactures their frames in house and it's easier for them to alter the frame design I'd think this would make them a prime candidate. A Voima with the pinion unit and a gates belt drive would be the ultimate eeb imop.

What say you @leo_kokkonen?

D

 

[Alexbn921]

Want

 

[slickrock]

This drive has been getting some interesting airplay, and one can clearly understand why, especially for full power emtbs, where the potential added weight (+1 lb for this animal) is a manageable tradeoff for a sealed, automated, unified motor drivetrain. Thing is, this Isn't the first foray for a combo motor/Gearbox product. For example, I've thought about approaching Leo with a motor like Revonte , which is also a Finnish company, that started promoting theirs back in 2019. They have an interesting ring/planetary gear system patent, but it remains to be seen if the company takes off (or gets bought out).

That said, there is a ton of consumer surplus here for a Gearbox/Motor for the ebike crowd. For years now, I've used a IGH (internal Gear Hub) Rohloff Speedhub on my acoustic bikes, because of their low maintenance, self-contained, low profile, mud-friendliness, bulletproof-ness, and set and forget shifting, and being able to smash gear shifts while idling. But there was always a weight penalty and with 1X1 setups now besting in gear range, it has reduced the advantages somewhat. This whole internal-gear approach makes a lot more sense now when when combined with battery powered motors, let alone easily allowing an automatic shifting drivetrain, and allowing quite a bit more torque when gates belts are used.

From a product perspective, Pinion's angle is to approach from the gearbox side, but they are new both motor and battery technology. They are a small player, but at least they are demoing a product. But this is too big of opportunity for the other big players to not enter the fray:

1. Bosch: 500lb gorilla here. If they can get into the gearbox fray and make it work inside the existing motor mounts of the CX line, there will be no stopping them, especially in the swap out market. Voima owners can jump in on the fun straight up.
2. SRAM: Well they got the drivetrain experience locked in, but going with a gearbox solution is a bit antithetical to their derailleur dominance and they just "dropped" the T-Type tech. I see then going in after Bosch makes the play.
3. Shimano - The only entrenched company in both the drivetrain and ebike motor space. And they already do IGH hubs! I can easily see them jumping in with ease. And if they do whey would have a big jump on SRAM and force their hand.
4. Specialized - list here only because they are large enough to strike out on their own and may buyout some small unknown player (like Revonte?)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next 2 years.

 

[Streddaz]

This drive has been getting some interesting airplay, and one can clearly understand why, especially for full power emtbs, where the potential added weight (+1 lb for this animal) is a manageable tradeoff for a sealed, automated, unified motor drivetrain. Thing is, this Isn't the first foray for a combo motor/Gearbox product. For example, I've thought about approaching Leo with a motor like Revonte , which is also a Finnish company, that started promoting theirs back in 2019. They have an interesting ring/planetary gear system patent, but it remains to be seen if the company takes off (or gets bought out).

That said, there is a ton of consumer surplus here for a Gearbox/Motor for the ebike crowd. For years now, I've used a IGH (internal Gear Hub) Rohloff Speedhub on my acoustic bikes, because of their low maintenance, self-contained, low profile, mud-friendliness, bulletproof-ness, and set and forget shifting, and being able to smash gear shifts while idling. But there was always a weight penalty and with 1X1 setups now besting in gear range, it has reduced the advantages somewhat. This whole internal-gear approach makes a lot more sense now when when combined with battery powered motors, let alone easily allowing an automatic shifting drivetrain, and allowing quite a bit more torque when gates belts are used.

From a product perspective, Pinion's angle is to approach from the gearbox side, but they are new both motor and battery technology. They are a small player, but at least they are demoing a product. But this is too big of opportunity for the other big players to not enter the fray:

1. Bosch: 500lb gorilla here. If they can get into the gearbox fray and make it work inside the existing motor mounts of the CX line, there will be no stopping them, especially in the swap out market. Voima owners can jump in on the fun straight up.
2. SRAM: Well they got the drivetrain experience locked in, but going with a gearbox solution is a bit antithetical to their derailleur dominance and they just "dropped" the T-Type tech. I see then going in after Bosch makes the play.
3. Shimano - The only entrenched company in both the drivetrain and ebike motor space. And they already do IGH hubs! I can easily see them jumping in with ease. And if they do whey would have a big jump on SRAM and force their hand.
4. Specialized - list here only because they are large enough to strike out on their own and may buyout some small unknown player (like Revonte?)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next 2 years.

I would be surprised if SRAM or Shimano jump in anytime soon as it would eat into what I am pretty sure is a lucrative drivetrain sales platform. If a player like Bosch jumps in, all bets will be off.

 

[slickrock]

I agree about SRAM. To be clear, I'm talking about the EMTB space, where the lion's share of the market goes to non-motor derailleur groups and in that area SRAM has been stealing the thunder from Shimano for years now.

This may be a breakthrough of the internally-geared transmission tech space has been waiting for (e.g Pinion). Let's face it, MTB internal-gear transmissions have always been on the fringe. Before 1X1's took hold, I had hoped IGs would have broken thru (perhaps somewhat more for downhill). I especially waited for Shimano to create a Nexus/Alfine hub specifically for MTB to market, but it never happened.

Already, Shimano has autoshift and freeshift capability because they control the DI2 and EP8 technology, so they can pull off smarter, more integrated shifting. Having both co-located with internal gearing, which they are already good at, I think Shimano is in the best place to pull this off, at least from manufacturing stance. I really like the Bosch motor but it will never feel integrated with SRAM until one or the other invades each other's space (i.e. full SRAM or full Bosch solution).

The other aspect is durability and serviceability. An IGM (Internal Gear Motor - to coin a term) is not the kind of beast that is going to be user-serviceable. Most folks do not repair their ebike motors and IG transmissions are nearly just as daunting (even for most bike mechanics). As such they need to be damn near bulletproof and battle-tested and when they do go bad, you need a wide service network to available. For the latter, I don't really see Pinion falling into this category, unless they have the weight of big bike brand behind them, like Specialized or Trek.

Personally, I want Bosch to step up and none too soon.

Edit: Forgot that SRAM owns Sachs, which makes IGHs. So SRAM could also leverage IG knowhow.

 

[slickrock]

Still going with this...

The other thing for us Voima folks is the suitability of Sensei to a gearbox motor setup. Specifically, the huge value-add of such a setup is to dump the chain for a Gates belt-drive. The essential question here is how much chain growth does Sensei suspension have? I really am hoping is small, because having to add belt tensioners (at the rear, especially) is none too cool.

Does anyone happen to know what this number is? I asked Pole this questions back in early 2022, but they didn't provide an official response. My sense is that chain growth is probably not to bad, at least compared to high-pivot and idler pulley setups, where wheel paths move more backward.

So... do you folks know of anyone who has slapped a Speedhub, Alfine or Kindernay onto a Voima with a Gates belt? Such a setup would pretty much tell you if a gearbox/motor setup would work for the bike.

 

[darwink1]

Someone that has a Voima can take the rear shock off and measure the chain growth.

I'm hoping that they come out with a gearbox/motor combo that you can retrofit as well. I know there are adaptors available to switch between different motors so if they were to incorporate something like that into the new design people with traditional ebikes would be able to upgrade.


D

 

[Suns_PSD]

No one here can answer this question. However, Pole seems like a likely candidate to incorporate this tech sooner, rather than later.

It's my opinion that it's certainly the future of e-bikes.

Hopefully Pinion will make a mid power version that is considerably lighter in the next couple of years.

I'd also add that the SRAM Transmission, while an amazing bit of kit, simply adds too much weight in a terrible place for what I'd call subtle improvements in shifting performance. I've removed AXS and installed old SRAM 11 speeds and the improvement in rear suspension performance is very notable with no real loss of shifting performance.

I'd like to see very lightweight 11 speed cable shifting on bikes and built in motor/ transmission combos on e-bikes where weight and efficiency aren't nearly as critical.

As far as OP buying a new bike with existing tech or not? Look, it's all rapidly evolving, and you are going to lose a lot of money come resale time on any current e-bike (or EV car for that matter). You have to decide if enjoying your hobby right now, for 2 years in between tech jumps, is worth the loss of a few thousand dollars. I'd just say that the future is never certain and new stuff usually has lots of bugs anyways.

 

[Kimmoi]

I don't get this fear of "weight penalty"; with Pinion the weight moves from rear suspension down to bb.
Which is good?

I'm not worried about weight, my Levo is about 25-26kg? Haven't weighted because i have never thinked "omg this is heavy" when i'm riding.

And batterys add weight too? And batterys are getting bigger but no one complains about that.

Personally i would love to see that Pole Voima Pinion.
Dream bike for me.

 

[AlumiPro]

I was very close to putting in a Voima order but recently saw that Pinion is making a motor with an integrated gearbox. I believe this will be the norm in a few years, at least when it comes to ebikes, and am now considering waiting to see who adopts this new tech.

Since Pole manufactures their frames in house and it's easier for them to alter the frame design I'd think this would make them a prime candidate. A Voima with the pinion unit and a gates belt drive would be the ultimate eeb imop.

What say you @leo_kokkonen?

View attachment 118384

D

I am also extremely close to placing an order for a Voima Race Frameset….like tomorrow!! And have spent some time now figuring out all the other components to make it what I want. But then I came across all this news on the new Pinion! I’m torn as well. I was going to order the XX transmission for it but would much rather try the gearbox with the Voima!
I feel maybe I should hold off and just keep enjoying my Gen3 Levo long travel S-Works for what it is, and see what comes about….which is very hard to do since my tunnel vision has been focused on the Voima!

 

[Kimmoi]

And Voima has high BB, because that tensioner's placement gives me a creeps though. As much as Bulls seattube angle.

 

[AlumiPro]

And Voima has high BB, because that tensioner's placement gives me a creeps though. As much as Bulls seattube angle.

Yeah good point. Maybe the first Gen Pinion emtb gearbox isn’t for me, due to that tensioner hanging down. I constantly smack my Brose on jagged volcanic rock on my local trails.

 

[Paul Mac]

Yeah good point. Maybe the first Gen Pinion emtb gearbox isn’t for me, due to that tensioner hanging down. I constantly smack my Brose on jagged volcanic rock on my local trails.

I agree, don't think I would jump in on a first gen product, in a couple of years when I'm ready to trade in my current Voima I think all the teething problems will be ironed out.

 

[Kimmoi]

I'm very interested at Sonni Enduro. Maybe Pinion can wait couple of years.

 

[TonTonUB]

Hello,

I hope the reply will be yes, in a near future.

In a very egoistic way, i would insta-buy a bike like this :
- Voima geo / spec
- Slim integrated battery (ala 'turbo-levo')
- Pinion MGU
- Belt drive ! (no chain please)

It's only a dream, but who knows ?

 

[darwink1]

Hello,

I hope the reply will be yes, in a near future.

In a very egoistic way, i would insta-buy a bike like this :
- Voima geo / spec
- Slim integrated battery (ala 'turbo-levo')
- Pinion MGU
- Belt drive ! (no chain please)

It's only a dream, but who knows ?

Right? All the things that would make an ebike almost perfect.

D

 

[tooFATtoRIDE]

...A Voima with the pinion unit and a gates belt drive would be the ultimate eeb imop.

View attachment 118384

D

Soooo really want