Which for steep techy dh between SL or Rise?

[carlbiker]

My wild is a tank, doesn’t turn or modulate well dh and has a sharp pendulum shift, I know as I’ve tried some non ebikes and the contrast is stark! I did also test a cube actionteam with 27.5 wheels and that was way more agile and modulated better (Saints) and my wild has Mt7 which I’ll port to the next bike. My riding is some days local trail parks and the odd epic day out doing a natural tour with odd steep dh or techy terrain at times

it feels like having a handicap riding a wild, things are 2-3x more difficult and riding analogue bikes are more enjoyable due to actually being more in control, sure if your going in straight lines on shallow descents without sharp turns or need to make sudden manoeuvres I’m sure the wild is great but I’ve seen the light! Just wish I’d tested more bikes earlier on....

I get the rise on Tuesday to test

 

[Gary]

Yes your Ebike is heavy but let's be honest here the main handicap is the rider.
Stop trying to skip experience and skill by constantly looking for the next "better" thing and stop trying to blame your own inabilities on the bike or its components.
You're a novice rider. So try to be realistic about your actual skill level and keep at it. You will eventually improve over time and as you do your fitness and strength should also improve. Trust me ANY decently skilled experienced rider will be able to make your bike do all those things you're imagining it can't.

 

[Cb750stu]

My wild is a tank, doesn’t turn or modulate well dh and has a sharp pendulum shift, I know as I’ve tried some non ebikes and the contrast is stark! I did also test a cube actionteam with 27.5 wheels and that was way more agile and modulated better (Saints) and my wild has Mt7 which I’ll port to the next bike. My riding is some days local trail parks and the odd epic day out doing a natural tour with odd steep dh or techy terrain at times

it feels like having a handicap riding a wild, things are 2-3x more difficult and riding analogue bikes are more enjoyable due to actually being more in control, sure if your going in straight lines on shallow descents without sharp turns or need to make sudden manoeuvres I’m sure the wild is great but I’ve seen the light! Just wish I’d tested more bikes earlier on....

I get the rise on Tuesday to test

Interesting ? I take it you're talking about the Orbea Wild ??

My Wild is a fantastic bike I'm just as quick on it than I was on my analogue bike ,

Maybe try harder to enjoy it's magical performance ??

 

[Mteam]

Carl, the bike you already have should be
Good at all the things you say it's not good at.

Yes it's heavier than a normal bike and the light ebikes, which gives it strengths and weaknesses in different areas, but to say its only good for shallow dh, straight-line etc is just not correct.

Your thread title 'which for steep techy downhill, rise or sl' - the answer is neither, they're both trailbikes, as defined by their geo, sus travel and other components. Your current bike should be a better fit for steep techy downhill. The rise and sl will be fine at steep techy dh in the hands of a good rider, but shouldn't be as good as what you have.

They should be better at flatter more mellow trails, and will be easier to hop and goof about on - if that's what you're really after rather than steep techy dh then go for it.

Ps what do you mean by this "doesn't modulate well dh and has a sharp pendulum shift".

I don't really understand what handling characteristics you're trying to convey by the above.

 

[Konanige]

I agree with the OP, in some situations the FF e'bikes do feel tanklike. In tight trails you can't beat a nimble bike, the corner cutting on our local stuff bears witness to that. And strength and fitness won't help that much (I have both) your still fighting a lot of extra weight! Its horses for courses I'm afraid all bike choices are compromises in the end and everybody's 'local stuff' is different. You can't beat 'try before you buy'.

 

[carlbiker]

Carl, the bike you already have should be
Good at all the things you say it's not good at.

Yes it's heavier than a normal bike and the light ebikes, which gives it strengths and weaknesses in different areas, but to say its only good for shallow dh, straight-line etc is just not correct.

Your thread title 'which for steep techy downhill, rise or sl' - the answer is neither, they're both trailbikes, as defined by their geo, sus travel and other components. Your current bike should be a better fit for steep techy downhill. The rise and sl will be fine at steep techy dh in the hands of a good rider, but shouldn't be as good as what you have.

They should be better at flatter more mellow trails, and will be easier to hop and goof about on - if that's what you're really after rather than steep techy dh then go for it.

Ps what do you mean by this "doesn't modulate well dh and has a sharp pendulum shift".

I don't really understand what handling characteristics you're trying to convey by the above.

Dont forget I mentioned the Cube action team also: there’s a similar heavy bike yet feels dramatically different, I wish I knew why and as much an inconvenient truth it was pretty night and day.....as are analogues

I have a suspicion both lighter bikes are traily bikes but I’m after something that doesn’t have as much a tipping point as the wild when faced with steep dh stuff. I guess the technical term would be wishing for a slacker head angle but I’m unsure on what angle is right. The wild is steeper compared to other bikes I’ve tried but there will be multiple other factors I’m sure.

Modulation I mean braking but this is impacted by this pendulum shift being the best way I can describe so once the weight shifts downwards and it’s ’off’ it’s hard to pull things back to a nice speed but then with the fast rolling tyres it tends to fly off very rapidly.

Someone I know who’s raced bikes in the past tested and had to shift his weight over the rear wheel (which I’m told is poor technique) and various little movements but that’s possibly him not being familiar, point is I tried his normal bike and everything felt way more at home on the dh and his brakes weren’t even fully working properly vs my mt7 monster brakes.....maybe just the less weight to tip the scales? Maybe a magic Mary upfront with the dhr on or a big Betty rear with dialled in suspension could help.

There’s a real lack of agility on the wild, I’ve felt it since day one, literally every bike I’ve tried is better for steering even if they are also 29inch wheels, but that’s mainly a weight thing I guess. I’ve never tried a 29 emtb other than mine so the rise will be the first.

 

[Gary]

If you have good strength and fitness but are still struggling to get a heavy bike around tight turns it's either one of two issues.

1. lack of skill
2. lack of skill

disclaimer: a larger or heavier bike can require a greater level of ability in certain situations.

Plenty folk cut corners on normal lightweight trail/enduro bikes for various reasons. almost never because the bike isn't capable of being ridden down the proper trail.

 

[carlbiker]

Yes your Ebike is heavy but let's be honest here the main handicap is the rider.
Stop trying to skip experience and skill by constantly looking for the next "better" thing and stop trying to blame your own inabilities on the bike or its components.
You're a novice rider. So try to be realistic about your actual skill level and keep at it. You will eventually improve over time and as you do your fitness and strength should also improve. Trust me ANY decently skilled experienced rider will be able to make your bike do all those things you're imagining it can't.

Well, your by now well drilled point would make perfect sense but skilled riders are drawing the same conclusion so what then? Im not trying to cheat my way out of experience as thats a fun journey and I know how much work there is still to go but that’s cool, riding with much better guys is helping.

I’m not saying good riders can’t do things I want but they might struggle a lot more on this than other bikes and a consensus seems it’s not ideal for steep dh Vs other bikes.

The fact I’m certain of is if I tackled any of the Dh stuff on another bike I’d be far more comfortable and be progressing much more rapidly. I did try other bikes and it’s like riding on toys in comparison, everything seems easier, slower, more controllable but my main goal is finding that comfort level and confidence in the bike. Maybe theres tyres that could make a difference but I’d be amazed if that would fix agility, modulation issues alone. I will test.

i noticed If you try tipping the bike up compared to others you can see mine would be OTT a lot sooner, the wild wants you to also sit up more rather than be more in the bike. Surely a DH geo would want you weighting the front wheel more, I could adapt my body position but I’m just saying how it makes me sit with it, others felt the same. Mteam might have a different view perhaps which would be interesting or any other fellow wilders.....

After the day of testing the take away was it might not be actually be me being shit after all ?

 

[Konanige]

No its gyroscopic forces!

 

[Mteam]

The heavier the bike, the less agile it is, thats a given.

You do need to be comfortable with whatever bike you end up with, but just to counter some points:-

I guess the technical term would be wishing for a slacker head angle but I’m unsure on what angle is right.

The sl and the rise have a steeper head angle than the wild. a slacker head angle typically means slower steering and less agility. Steeper head angle should feel more agile - but there is more to agility than just head angle.

so once the weight shifts downwards and it’s ’off’ it’s hard to pull things back to a nice speed but then with the fast rolling tyres it tends to fly off very rapidly.

That sounds to me that you find it going too fast too easily? big wheels do roll over stuff easier than smaller wheels, they are naturally fast, you have to work the bike less to keep the speed high, so maybe thats why you prefer the smaller wheels of the cube and maybe the normal bike? ie smaller wheels are naturally a bit slower over rough stuff - I know I'm generalising here....

There’s a real lack of agility on the wild,

full fat ebikes are inherently less agile than a normal bike, but the orbea is not significantly less agile than any other 29er full fat ebike designed for the same sort of terrain/riding. It probably is less agile than a 27.5 wheel bike of similar intentions/geo/spec.

Ultimately you need to find the bike that is right for you - I do think that (as per garys advice) your relative lack of experience is the problem not the bike, but at the end of the day, if your head is blaming the bike then you may be better off ditching the bike and getting one you get on with more, or at least riding something else for a while and working out what traits you like and dont like. Dont be surprised though if you do swap bikes that it has some different characteristics you dont like.

All bikes are a compromise so work out where you want to compromise and where you dont and get one that fits the bill.

 

[carlbiker]

If you have good strength and fitness but are still struggling to get a heavy bike around tight turns it's either one of two issues.

1. lack of skill
2. lack of skill

disclaimer: a larger or heavier bike can require a greater level of ability in certain situations.

Plenty folk cut corners on normal lightweight trail/enduro bikes for various reasons. almost never because the bike isn't capable of being ridden down the proper trail.

Maybe this might give you another perspective

 

[Gary]

skilled riders are drawing the same conclusion

Who? and Where?

The fact I’m certain of is if I tackled any of the Dh stuff on another bike I’d be far more comfortable and be progressing much more rapidly.

Dude you're talking to a guy who rode DH in the 90s. Back when it was the norm for a DH bike to weigh 22kg and have 4-5" of undamped/badly damped suspension, shit tyres, high BBs and steep head angles. You have no idea how spoiled you actually are entering mtb as a hobby with the bike you have.

You're an inexperienced rider. You'll be inexperienced whether you swap to a different bike or not. There is a pretty simple (free) solution to this though.

 

[Mteam]

I'm no expert (far from it) , but I've ridden a lot of different full suss bikes now over the years, The wild has nothing inherently wrong with it, its perfectly suited/suitable for going down steep techy stuff as much as any other 'enduro' bike is. When you point it down something steep ,it just goes, it gets up to speed quickly and doesnt want to slow down, you seem to see this as a bad thing, most would see it as a good thing.

Like all 23kg bikes - its harder to hop about, get the front wheel up , get the back wheel up etc, thats because its a 23kg bike.

Orbea WIld FS Review - One of the best ebikes! | The Loam Wolf

I dont want to come across like a fanboi, because I like to think I can be pretty objective even when its cost me 6k, but I dont think I'e read a single review where they say the bike is no good on steep stuff.

 

[Konanige]

I think the OP came on here for advice, not to just be told he's a shit rider!

 

[carlbiker]

The heavier the bike, the less agile it is, thats a given.

You do need to be comfortable with whatever bike you end up with, but just to counter some points:-



The sl and the rise have a steeper head angle than the wild. a slacker head angle typically means slower steering and less agility. Steeper head angle should feel more agile - but there is more to agility than just head angle.



That sounds to me that you find it going too fast too easily? big wheels do roll over stuff easier than smaller wheels, they are naturally fast, you have to work the bike less to keep the speed high, so maybe thats why you prefer the smaller wheels of the cube and maybe the normal bike? ie smaller wheels are naturally a bit slower over rough stuff - I know I'm generalising here....



full fat ebikes are inherently less agile than a normal bike, but the orbea is not significantly less agile than any other 29er full fat ebike designed for the same sort of terrain/riding. It probably is less agile than a 27.5 wheel bike of similar intentions/geo/spec.

Ultimately you need to find the bike that is right for you - I do think that (as per garys advice) your relative lack of experience is the problem not the bike, but at the end of the day, if your head is blaming the bike then you may be better off ditching the bike and getting one you get on with more, or at least riding something else for a while and working out what traits you like and dont like. Dont be surprised though if you do swap bikes that it has some different characteristics you dont like.

All bikes are a compromise so work out where you want to compromise and where you dont and get one that fits the bill.

Cheers makes sense, seems I may be looking for something that might not exist then, 17kg wild! I added a picture from a geo comparison site, Im just in the process of studying some geometry guides which look interesting ?

Head angle seems same as the wild 65.5 so could be interesting as the lighter weight should slow things down and offer some more agility is what I’m hoping. I did try some 29 analogue bikes but there like 14kg with light wheels so I’ve nothing else to directly compare too FF wise....

I wonder when people only have one bike and it’s the ebike only....seems no one atm has only an ebike mainly because they are heavy and you lose agility etc, I can see why people I ride with choose analogue over ebike nowadays, Im even slightly tempted to ditch electric altogether unless the rise ’rises’ to the challenge ?

 

[Mteam]

Carl asks what bike for steep techy dh? He's already got an ebike that's very appropriate for steep techy downhill.

I think that maybe the question ought to be what ebike for max agility? And then the answer might well be the rise or levo sl?

 

[Mteam]

The rise does look like a great bike though, so between that and a levo sl I'd pick the rise everytime.

If I were riding a lot with others on full fat e bikes, I might be a bit concerned that I'd be left behind on longer up hills, but maybe that's not an issue in the real world.

Cheers makes sense, seems I may be looking for something that might not exist then, 17kg wild!

There's no reason they couldn't make a new wild using the same motor and battery as the rise, so I don't think you're too long off getting a 17/18kg enduro e bike as long as you're happy with lower torque.

 

[Gary]

I think the OP came on here for advice, not to just be told he's a shit rider!

Calm down dear.
No one is calling Carl a shit rider. I simply advised him to be realistic about his abilities and experience.
What would your advice be?

I wonder when people only have one bike and it’s the ebike only....seems no one atm has only an ebike mainly because they are heavy and you lose agility etc, I can see why people I ride with choose analogue over ebike nowadays, Im even slightly tempted to ditch electric altogether unless the rise ’rises’ to the challenge ?

Carl I have loads of bikes. only one is an Ebike.
I prefer all the normal bikes because of their increased agility. This doesn't mean I can't ride the same tech, tight, steep on ALL my bikes... and it doesn't even mean I can't hop, jump, trick or style my emtb as well as my 30lb Enduro bike. It just means I prefer the lighter bikes.
I prefer my roadbike to my Ebike as well.

Don't make it such a drama though. I'm a far more stylish and playful rider even when on my Emtb than almost all my far younger enduro race head mates are on their normal bikes. it's more a sign of the times (fashion) thing than anything though. Me being old skool and not bothered a fuck and them being Enduro obsessed

 

[carlbiker]

Who? and Where?

Dude you're talking to a guy who rode DH in the 90s. Back when it was the norm for a DH bike to weigh 22kg and have 4-5" of undamped/badly damped suspension, shit tyres, high BBs and steep head angles. You have no idea how spoiled you actually are entering mtb as a hobby with the bike you have.

You're an inexperienced rider. You'll be inexperienced whether you swap to a different bike or not. There is a pretty simple (free) solution to this though.

bikes were tanks back then, but did they bolt off Dh as fast as these bikes do now with 20yrs of refinements, probably not!

I know my level, I’m happy with the progress I’m making, in fact I’m doing stuff I never dreamed of attempting or ever planned to do surprisingly. Originally it was for riding trails and pootling about places but the rush is kicking in and is a real motivator for me to improve to get into the more challenging stuff, just needs the right bike!

Feels like logic is wasted if your going to ignore it. If someone’s learning then why would a lighter (more control Dh) more agile bike not help them progress? On Dh stuff you get mere seconds to learn and that’s if your lucky enough not to fk it up and be unlucky, if seasoned guys try my bike out and feel it’s abit sketchy what chance have I got? It’s just holding me back, UNLESS there is a fix that I’m unaware of then maybe okay something I’ll try with but still I want to be doing hops and manuals which will be also easier, I can pick these normal bikes up one handed there so light so being more playful is appealing.

As for this whole experience thing or a bike won’t change anything, it’s bollocks really.....the right bike is everything as we all know, if you play football with boots that aren’t right you’ll be crap, I’m just trying to figure out if they have the wrong studs or laces on, or maybe there made out of 1960s leather and just abit too heavy for doing some messi style dribbling ?

 

[carlbiker]

I'm no expert (far from it) , but I've ridden a lot of different full suss bikes now over the years, The wild has nothing inherently wrong with it, its perfectly suited/suitable for going down steep techy stuff as much as any other 'enduro' bike is. When you point it down something steep ,it just goes, it gets up to speed quickly and doesnt want to slow down, you seem to see this as a bad thing, most would see it as a good thing.

Like all 23kg bikes - its harder to hop about, get the front wheel up , get the back wheel up etc, thats because its a 23kg bike.

Orbea WIld FS Review - One of the best ebikes! | The Loam Wolf

I dont want to come across like a fanboi, because I like to think I can be pretty objective even when its cost me 6k, but I dont think I'e read a single review where they say the bike is no good on steep stuff.

yeah I get your point, I like the challenge of the weight too but are you talking straight line descents as the stuff I’m looking at is Dh, drop, rooty berm all within a few seconds that is pretty sketchy, like there’s mesh around the berm to stop you falling down an embankment type thing, not sure here speed is such a good thing is it? ?

 

[Jimbo Vills]

My advice to Carl would be quite simple.

Less thinking. More riding.

try another bike by all means, and if you are more comfortable on it great.

but with any type of riding, I’ve always found there is no substitute for saddle time ??

 

[carlbiker]

The rise does look like a great bike though, so between that and a levo sl I'd pick the rise everytime.

If I were riding a lot with others on full fat e bikes, I might be a bit concerned that I'd be left behind on longer up hills, but maybe that's not an issue in the real world.



There's no reason they couldn't make a new wild using the same motor and battery as the rise, so I don't think you're too long off getting a 17/18kg enduro e bike as long as you're happy with lower torque.

The top end of turbo I probably would miss as it really is cheat power so I feel like I’ve not had a proper workout at times as I tend to use on all uphill to ’preserve’ ones self so I reckon losing that top end will be a fair trade off and also if I suffer abit more the analogue guys will like me more! ?

looking at that image (if you get a second) how would you describe the rise compared to the wild and is there anything in the geometry that makes the cube more agile, the cube does have a slacker head angle which advice says makes bikes easier to control Dh and over rough terrain but 29 wheels add stability so the head angle doesn’t have to be as slack to achieve the same descending confidence

 

[Jackware]

Presumably you've played with the basics first, fork and shock settings, tyre pressures. They're not as exciting as checking out a new bike but worth learning about and experimenting with, before you spend yet more money.

 

[carlbiker]

I think the OP came on here for advice, not to just be told he's a shit rider!

I think he’s not trying to have a dig, hes just making sure I comprehend the experience level thingy, there should be 2-3x more references to go yet ?

Just to be clear, no drama here and I appreciate this biking specimen that was named @Gary and genetically modified in a mountain bike lab will have forgotten more than I know, if some shots are fired along the way then that’s fine, I wear Knox Urbane pro body armour ?

 

[Gary]

bikes were tanks back then, but did they bolt off Dh as fast as these bikes do now with 20yrs of refinements, probably not!

Are you serious?
I'm fairly confident it's unlikely you're ever going to go as fast or big down any legit DH track on any bike as the shitty old DH bikes from 20 years back did. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Maybe this little insight into the scene from 20 years ago might give YOU better perspective...

 

[carlbiker]

Presumably you've played with the basics first, fork and shock settings, tyre pressures. They're not as exciting as checking out a new bike but worth learning about and experimenting with, before you spend yet more money.

Im close to buying a shockwiz as a learning aid more than anything but maybe that could help and I’ve not ruled out maybe the wrong rubber is on, which dhf clearly are for steep wet dh stuff, I wish I could show you how my front tyres looked at the end of one day, totally filled up. I did try a 33mm stem, suspension does feel okay to me, I’m not getting bad responses from little drops or jumps etc. I think I’ll stick a Mary upfring if I can actually find one!

 

[nomad66]

stuff I’m looking at is Dh, drop, rooty berm all within a few seconds, the wild will do all this mate, I'm blown away with mine, not changed a thing on my team, the advice Gary and mteam have given you is bang on, I do all the above you mention without any probs inc 6/8 foot drops and im learning jumps, I think I do need some volume spacers tho I blow throw travel,
my mate has a cube 160team i had a go in street and they felt similar to me, your saying cubes are better geo and faster turning but when out he's slower everywhere than me, my drops and jumps are more controlled, guess what.. he's blaming his suspension on his cube 160 team like your blaming the wild, the fact is I've done more miles and i rarely do straight lines, as you been told before. i do a lot of dicking about, I've noticed my mate does none and it shows on the trail,

 

[carlbiker]

Are you serious?
I'm fairly confident it's unlikely you're ever going to go as fast or big down any legit DH track on any bike as the shitty old DH bikes from 20 years back did. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Maybe this little insight into the scene from 20 years ago might give YOU better perspective...

nothing in it really ?

point remains, heavier will go faster dh and be less agile, your 22kg bike will feel like a tank compared to a 14kg bike and then the skill level required to master will be greater, wouldn’t you agree? But after mastering the rise, it’s likely there would be zero aspirations to buy a heavier bike, I mean why buy a 25kg bike and then add carbon parts, kind of ironic I’d say

 

[Mteam]

looking at that image (if you get a second) how would you describe the rise compared to the wild and is there anything in the geometry that makes the cube more agile, the cube does have a slacker head angle which advice says makes bikes easier to control Dh and over rough terrain but 29 wheels add stability so the head angle doesn’t have to be as slack to achieve the same descending confidence

The head angles on all those bikes are within a gnats chuff of each other. It's hard to look at geo tables and work out how a bike is going to ride, but that cube has smaller wheels so logic says it might feel more agile than the wild. But there's more to bikes than geo tables and spec lists, go ride some and decide what you prefer.

I’m looking at is Dh, drop, rooty berm all within a few seconds that is pretty sketchy

Yes, it sounds sketchy and sounds like it requires a good amount of skill to ride. It also sounds the sort of thing I'd prefer to be on my normal bike for given the choice of that or my ebike,but then on the way back up I'd rather be on the ebike! I hate pedalling up more than I hate a bit less agility on the way down.

I think you're coming round to the realisation that all bikes are a compromise somewhere.

 

[carlbiker]

stuff I’m looking at is Dh, drop, rooty berm all within a few seconds, the wild will do all this mate, I'm blown away with mine, not changed a thing on my team, the advice Gary and mteam have given you is bang on, I do all the above you mention without any probs inc 6/8 foot drops and im learning jumps, I think I do need some volume spacers tho I blow throw travel,
my mate has a cube 160team i had a go in street and they felt similar to me, your saying cubes are better geo and faster turning but when out he's slower everywhere than me, my drops and jumps are more controlled, guess what.. he's blaming his suspension on his cube 160 team like your blaming the wild, the fact is I've done more miles and i rarely do straight lines, as you been told before. i do a lot of dicking about, I've noticed my mate does none and it shows on the trail,

Glad your enjoying the bike, maybe your much better than me but one question, did you ever feel on a dh it went too fast behind your control and couldn’t bring it back etc and if so did you fix this with anything in the setup? I understand perception of speed or experience, but my point is I’m trying same stuff on other bikes and there’s zero drama like to a point where it’s farcical. I’ve never said geo is better on the cube, I wouldn’t know, the feedback was that it handled way better dh.