Levo SL Gen 1 The Reason for delay in 2023 Levo SL...(and various other discussions on lightweight bikes......)

[Dax]

Interested to know what these other motors are? Any links please?

Prototype next gen SL motors according to the rumours.

 

[Doomanic]

Interested to know what these other motors are?

Mahle with more power.

Any links please?

None that I know of.

 

[ebikerider]

Mahle with more power.

None that I know of.

More power from the rumour mill?

 

[Doomanic]

If you like, makes no difference to me if you believe it or not.

 

[Suns_PSD]

For me, one huge advantage of the Spesh e-bikes is they offer a frame only option. Of course they charge an arm & a leg for them!

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

It's a bit crazy really .

It's still the same bike it was ! It's not degraded, dissolved. The main difference is marketing BS. Admittedly Spesh are one of the worst for pushing that, so you could argue they're victims of their own success

The Levo SL thread was one of the most active threads there ever was. The bike still pulls 300w from the battery - pretty much the same as any of the other bikes in the "lightweight" category. Yes, the quoted torque is less, but for all bikes that varies through the cadence range. It's a smaller motor than a FF, there is no magic. Efficiency of motors and batteries hasn't changed/improved.

For 99% of the people buying them, they'll still be amazing, more reliable than most of the competition, better service and backup than most of the competition. Yes, the motor's not silent, but hell, not everyone who buys an e-bike is worried by some whine.

Everyone will want the new one with more torque .. but you use that, you have less range .. so we have 100 threads about how cool everyone is that they only use their NEW SL2 only ever on Eco ! Then they start with the threads wanting a lighter lightweight as they get back with 50% battery .

So on point. The current SL has plenty of power, at least for this 73 yr old. I really can't keep up with the 85 nM 55+lb bikes now but ride with mostly analog bike owners and it's the perfect bike to keep up with the younger riders. Moderate geometry might be the only criticism I might have but then again I do like the playfulness that comes with that. Maybe a slightly longer chain stay for climbing and a half degree more fork angle would be helpful but I'm splitting hairs on this. And the motor is a little bit noisy as we all know but I think that's because of straight cut gears being used for efficiency. If they add a bit of torque that would nice for some heavier riders I'm sure but I would probably rarely have to use it personally. I was really surprised riding an SL after riding my Focus Jam2 for 6,000 miles given all the talk about it being underpowered. At 155 lbs with gear I could still get up anything I could on the Focus with a bit more work and of course slower. So a more powerful Sl would not make me run out and sell my 2021 expert SL. But if it were a firmware/software upgrade for the motor I'd be inclined to try that out but stick to ECO and trail 95% of the time.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

I find the whine is awful on that SL motor I was wondering if the Performance Bearing upgrades might improve it at all? I’m tempted by the KSL because of flying options but the SLs are hardly flying out of the shops.

Not sure the noise is from the bearings. Straight cut gears are always going to be noisier but very efficient. Could be the agma quality of the plastic gear that contributes but I don't know where the design is on this and doubt that Specialized didn't know this motor was a bit noisy and they did everything possible to quiet it down before going into production with it.

 

[Swingset]

Noise is holy grail for many going forward. The engineering side is pretty straight forward turning electrons into twist. The resulting decibels is really hard to solve. The harmonic drive has some real advantages in terms of less RPM required and a concentric architecture with less moving parts.

I was an inch from buying a Kenevo SL on sale a few weeks back and the motor noise was the main driver on why I didn't. I did notice that pedaling with the motor off resulted in an odd, every 90 degree series of lumps in the pedal stroke which struck me as odd.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

Noise is holy grail for many going forward. The engineering side is pretty straight forward turning electrons into twist. The resulting decibels is really hard to solve. The harmonic drive has some real advantages in terms of less RPM required and a concentric architecture with less moving parts.

I was an inch from buying a Kenevo SL on sale a few weeks back and the motor noise was the main driver on why I didn't. I did notice that pedaling with the motor off resulted in an odd, every 90 degree series of lumps in the pedal stroke which struck me as odd.

By "lumps" do you mean sound or resistance? Mostly you really get used to the noise like tinnitus I guess. But it is a factor for many. For instance I probably would not buy a bike with the new Bosch or Shimano motor because of that clunking sound they can make (varies from frame to frame it seems) under no load. That would really drive me crazy, lol.

 

[Swingset]

By "lumps" do you mean sound or resistance? Mostly you really get used to the noise like tinnitus I guess. But it is a factor for many. For instance I probably would not buy a bike with the new Bosch or Shimano motor because of that clunking sound they can make (varies from frame to frame it seems) under no load. That would really drive me crazy, lol.

Four subtle yet distinct increases in friction each revolution of the cranks with the display on but the motor assist off. I ride with several analog guys who like to chat going up the hill. With my Decoy E8000 motor I cant readily hear a thing they are saying. Might as will be my wife on trash day!

I have a Trek 9.7 on order and am looking forward to the visual and aural stealth modes that bike offers. Lots of really good bikes on offer and a year from now I will probably be crying about the new stuff and how much better it is.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

Four subtle yet distinct increases in friction each revolution of the cranks with the display on but the motor assist off. I ride with several analog guys who like to chat going up the hill. With my Decoy E8000 motor I cant readily hear a thing they are saying. Might as will be my wife on trash day!

I have a Trek 9.7 on order and am looking forward to the visual and aural stealth modes that bike offers. Lots of really good bikes on offer and a year from now I will probably be crying about the new stuff and how much better it is.

Hmm, have to pay better attention. My E8000 was noisy too but different and not too offensive. And yes I have trouble hearing other riders but it's my hearing and not the bike so much. I now have hearing aids, lol. But there are some issues with wind noise and my 2nd set are made by Philips. I found the noise mode with the volume turned down a bit stops the wind noise and helps me hear others too. Still experimenting with them but found they don't fall out at least! That Trek 9.7 should be a lot of fun and more power than the SL too.

 

[boBE]

Hmm, have to pay better attention. My E8000 was noisy too but different and not too offensive. And yes I have trouble hearing other riders but it's my hearing and not the bike so much. I now have hearing aids, lol. But there are some issues with wind noise and my 2nd set are made by Philips. I found the noise mode with the volume turned down a bit stops the wind noise and helps me hear others too. Still experimenting with them but found they don't fall out at least! That Trek 9.7 should be a lot of fun and more power than the SL too.

Semi off-topic, these work to reduce wind noise: Cat-Ears.com | Cat-Ears, LLC | United States Shame they quit making the Elvis sideburn models.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

Semi off-topic, these work to reduce wind noise: Cat-Ears.com | Cat-Ears, LLC | United States Shame they quit making the Elvis sideburn models.

Yeah I saw those and did try them but my helmet strap was about an inch from the side of my face rendering it ineffective. Growing your hair long on the sides works too. But I found the first ones I had, Rexton BiCore sat too high and these Philips are more in back and the noise reduction program works really well for me.

 

[George_KSL]

The noise also differs a lot in individual units. My KSL and LSL my mother in law bought are at least 30perc. less loud than LSL my wife has. The pitch is also lower. All 3 motors works flawlessly, zero drag or the common axle looseness, but the noise variance is very odd.
Because of that I find the noise of my KSL to be kind of tolerable, but I find the wife's one to be somewhat irritating. I doubt that is warranty issue since the function is flawless otherwise.
I would pay for motor with identical specs if it was more silent. I believe Mahle SL is just bad on every front now compared to competition. It's light, but not even lightest, it's biggest in size compared to both TQ and Fazua so it's not that invisible either, it's weakest which is ok for me since I am the ECO/Trail rider only, but the noise.. the noise just kills it. Out of every metric, it leads in none.
Plastic innards and straight-cut gears are imho not biggest noise contributors. The gearing ratio difference betweeen SL and TQ is almost four times lower in favor of TQ.

 

[p3eps]

I did about 2500 miles on my LSL, and had it in for a service. I mentioned how loud the motor was, and the LBS agreed it was louder than it should be and put a warranty claim in.
Spesh replaced it under warranty, despite it being over 2 years old… and the difference in noise is night and day. Yes, it’s still a loud motor, but it’s sooooo much quieter than the old one now.

It was working perfectly, other than the noise!

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

The noise also differs a lot in individual units. My KSL and LSL my mother in law bought are at least 30perc. less loud than LSL my wife has. The pitch is also lower. All 3 motors works flawlessly, zero drag or the common axle looseness, but the noise variance is very odd.
Because of that I find the noise of my KSL to be kind of tolerable, but I find the wife's one to be somewhat irritating. I doubt that is warranty issue since the function is flawless otherwise.
I would pay for motor with identical specs if it was more silent. I believe Mahle SL is just bad on every front now compared to competition. It's light, but not even lightest, it's biggest in size compared to both TQ and Fazua so it's not that invisible either, it's weakest which is ok for me since I am the ECO/Trail rider only, but the noise.. the noise just kills it. Out of every metric, it leads in none.
Plastic innards and straight-cut gears are imho not biggest noise contributors. The gearing ratio difference betweeen SL and TQ is almost four times lower in favor of TQ.

It's all related and rpms of course will make any gear set louder but especially straight cut gears. About 20 years ago I worked on noisy gears used in a medical device. They were silicone and teflon impregnated acetal (delrin) gears that initially were designed with only a 4-6 agma rating. It took multiple gates and better moulding control to achieve agma 10+ and above but noise reduction was dramatic. And of course the agma 4 gears were all over the place in quality and so the noise varied a lot. There were also moulding issues causing delaminations and if those happened to be on a contact surface the noise increased in a very non-linear way. So I can understand why, because they use a very large plastic moulded gear, the noise might vary from motor to motor. I wonder how the shop determines what is a loud motor and if mine is "too loud". I have heard of others getting motor replacements too.

Straight cut gears are efficient, quiet and generate no axial load but the whine/noise can be pretty bad. Ref: The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Straight Cut Gears

 

[Pdoz]

I I wonder how the shop determines what is a loud motor and if mine is "too loud". I have heard of others getting motor replacements too.

Straight cut gears are efficient, quiet and generate no axial load but the whine/noise can be pretty bad. Ref: The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Straight Cut Gears

I suspect it's shop + customer dependent , but with your experience it'd be a brave shop to refuse warranty! Imagine how embarrassing it'd be for specialized to have an online video with you opening up a " warranty refused" motor and showing why they were wrong!

BUT , you might be swapping a reliable but noisy motor for an unreliable quiet one....I've had 3 , the first was crazy noisy and replaced under warranty when the bearings failed at 2 years, the second was amazingly quiet, felt more powerful and seemed to use less battery...and died within weeks. The current one is a mehle ...perfectly functional but just a bit too noisy and a bit weak.


The variability makes me wonder wtf they are smoking at mahle

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

I suspect it's shop + customer dependent , but with your experience it'd be a brave shop to refuse warranty! Imagine how embarrassing it'd be for specialized to have an online video with you opening up a " warranty refused" motor and showing why they were wrong!

BUT , you might be swapping a reliable but noisy motor for an unreliable quiet one....I've had 3 , the first was crazy noisy and replaced under warranty when the bearings failed at 2 years, the second was amazingly quiet, felt more powerful and seemed to use less battery...and died within weeks. The current one is a mehle ...perfectly functional but just a bit too noisy and a bit weak.


The variability makes me wonder wtf they are smoking at mahle

Yeah there's that saying, "don't fix what isn't broken". I now have 1400 trouble free miles and very happy with how my "sewing machine sounding" motor has performed. I really have adapted to the sound and it's really not that offensive. If Specialized should come out with a new quieter one with slightly more power that's drop in I might consider it but this bike is perfect for me right now. But I might need more power when I turn 80 in 6 1/2 years, lol.

 

[Norcalsl]

Specialized marketing department: still crickets.

 

[oettam20]

With all the Fazua motorized bikes that have been released in the last weeks, each day of waiting the presentation of the new Levo SL, could mean the lost of shares in the market of lightweight eMTB. Come on Specialized, don't force us to opt for the Porsche motorized bikes..

 

[chamaruco]

That''s not true. These releases are raising the market. Let the big companies do the job. we are simply buyers…

 

[head]

People waiting for the new Levo SL be like:

 

[JohnnyG]

Aw good old Pulp Fiction! Fav movie ever

 

[KnollyBro]

With all the Fazua motorized bikes that have been released in the last weeks, each day of waiting the presentation of the new Levo SL, could mean the lost of shares in the market of lightweight eMTB. Come on Specialized, don't force us to opt for the Porsche motorized bikes..

Is there really a long line up of riders ready to drop a pile of cash to buy the latest Specialized SL bike? One has to wonder if there will be a 2023 model given its November. #LoveMyLevoSL

 

[ebikerider]

Is there really a long line up of riders ready to drop a pile of cash to buy the latest Specialized SL bike? One has to wonder if there will be a 2023 model given its November. #LoveMyLevoSL

Nah, there’s 10 people on a forum making noise, everyone else is out riding.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The fact is that if the motor spec details were settled, Spesh would have shown this bike already.

In reality, it's a much more competitive market now and I suspect that they are doing some last moment fine tuning to make it more competitive with the very newest offerings.

That Mahle needs to compete favorably with the TQ & Fazua in regard to noise then power (in that order) or the product will be considerably less successful than it should be.

From what I can see, Spesh who makes really competitive bikes generally (I adore my '21 SJEVO), looks a bit uncompetitive in this space at the moment and the motor is the primary issue.

 

[squeegee]

Exactly what I was thinking though personally I'd put power in front of noise.

 

[head]

Not everyone cares about the noise that much. I spent a few days on an SL and the noise did not bother me. It is nice to have a quiet bike, but its not a must for me.

 

[Norcalsl]

The whiny motor is the only thing I would change.

 

[KnollyBro]

The fact is that if the motor spec details were settled, Spesh would have shown this bike already.

In reality, it's a much more competitive market now and I suspect that they are doing some last moment fine tuning to make it more competitive with the very newest offerings.

That Mahle needs to compete favorably with the TQ & Fazua in regard to noise then power (in that order) or the product will be considerably less successful than it should be.

From what I can see, Spesh who makes really competitive bikes generally (I adore my '21 SJEVO), looks a bit uncompetitive in this space at the moment and the motor is the primary issue.

I really don't understand why people are so concerned about the noise of a motorized bike and would rank it more important than power. Its not like everyone doesn't know we are riding emtbs when we ride with/near/past other bikers/hikers/walkers. IF I had to ask one change for the next gen Levo SL, a less noisy motor would NOT be on the top of the list. How about a frame only option other than the ridiculously over priced S-WORKS version, a more reliable motor or adjustable geo to run a mullet set if so desired?
My modified 2020 Levo SL is the right bike for me so far. Too bad I had to change most of the stock parts on it to make it work for me. I know I am not the only one who would prefer a frame only option.