The end for ebike tuning?

[Fivetones]

Ex-pat Brit in NZ right?

 

[Rusty]

Nope. I do have some Irish and Scottish on my mothers side though.

 

[Fivetones]

Keeping this on topic: Having tried the Mahle/Specialized motor it is definitely easier to pedal through the cut off (though it’s not completely without impact) so really how much does the limit really matter?

These are assisted bikes not motor vehicles - that’s a massive advantage as we can use any trail a bike can use. It’s up to our common sense then about how fast we go. Surely that’s the best of both worlds?

 

[Fivetones]

Nope. I had family fighting on both sides and the one thing my elders constantly hammered into me as a child was to stand up for what I believe in. If people did that our world would be a vastly different place - and by standing up for what you believe in, that is NOT the bullshit the greenies and the left are currently doing that involves destruction of property, but constructing well thought out arguments, engaging with your area and letting those that are elected know that they are YOUR employees and unless they work for their constituents they are on borrowed time.

Sadly, the EU is a completely undemocratic body that needs to be squashed ASAP.
I do feel however that the damage is already done and we can only hope that Brexit leads to other countries pulling the plug on that bloated beauracracy.

“constructing well thought out arguments,”. Surely you’d need “so called experts“ for that?

Humanity is making the same mistakes it has made before like you say, however the leaders we have and the rhetoric used today is how we ended up there.

This is the last thing I’ll say about this but I keep saying let’s keep the bullshit politics off here for a reason.

 

[Wernher]

No confusion here. My Giant pedals just as nicely without much resistance over the assistance cutoff limit and in fact I often ride with people on no bikes where I switch my bike off completely and stay with them apart from up some hills. The only difference is that mine is at 32 and the Euro limit is at 25km/h. The issue is that they want to issue massive fines and impound bikes for lifting the limit. I'm saying if the limit was 32 nobody would derestrict their bikes because it is a natural cutoff point. Anyway I'm not going to partake any further in this discussion. Fortunately I don't live in Europe and don't have to deal with the issue. My arguments are well explained in this thread. No point elaborating on it. My point on the whole issue is that France attacks the problem from the wrong angle and what they are trying to enforce its not enforceable unless they ban all bikes from the streets which is not going to happen.

 

[Wernher]

Nope. I had family fighting on both sides and the one thing my elders constantly hammered into me as a child was to stand up for what I believe in. If people did that our world would be a vastly different place - and by standing up for what you believe in, that is NOT the bullshit the greenies and the left are currently doing that involves destruction of property, but constructing well thought out arguments, engaging with your area and letting those that are elected know that they are YOUR employees and unless they work for their constituents they are on borrowed time.

Sadly, the EU is a completely undemocratic body that needs to be squashed ASAP.
I do feel however that the damage is already done and we can only hope that Brexit leads to other countries pulling the plug on that bloated beauracracy.

At last somebody that's not a sheep following the herd. ?

 

[GrahamPaul]

Exactly. The random restriction figures are something some so-called Expert came up with.
Completely arbitrary and in my mind unrealistic - just like limiting an automobile to whatever speed limit your country has.

That is just plain wrong. Do your research please. A reduction in speed limit from 30mph to 20mph results in a reduction of casualties by 40-60%. (Google it if you don't believe me, but here's a BMJ article of a properly conducted study to assist you.)

Brits will notice an increase in the number of 20mph zones, especially near schools, for that reason. Here in the rest of Europe, 30kph speed limits in towns are getting just as common.

(By profession, I'm a Civil Engineer and traffic engineering is one of our disciplines. I'll argue with you all day long on a technical basis, but I have no intention of continually attempting to counter uninformed opinion of those who would rather not consider facts other than to dismiss them as inconvenient when they don't fit their beliefs. Seems to me there is a modern trend of belief trumping fact - just look at modern politics. Welcome to the Endarkenment!)

 

[Wernher]

While I think 25km restriction is rediculous, I am forever grateful that (in Australia and a Europe) I can ride my ebike where ever I like!
I would rather have the freedom to ride my bike with assistance up to 25km than to have to ride a non assigned bike.
Be great full people!

While I agree to some extent I am then even more grateful that I can ride my bike anywhere I want with assistance to 32km/h legally. When I ride in places where there is a chance that I can hit someone or something I have the common sense to back off. My government trust me and I'm thankful.

 

[Jopodriver]

That is just plain wrong. Do your research please. A reduction in speed limit from 30mph to 20mph results in a reduction of casualties by 40-60%. (Google it if you don't believe me, but here's a BMJ article of a properly conducted study to assist you.)

If we go that route, we could reduct casualities by 100% if we ban all motored vehicles. Is that the goal?

 

[Zimmerframe]

At last somebody that's not a sheep following the herd. ?

He lives in New Zealand .. he's normally following the herd - but for different reasons ...

 

[Wernher]

He lives in New Zealand .. he's normally following the herd - but for different reasons ...

?

 

[GrahamPaul]

And your point is? If my bike is limited to 25 and I ride it at 40 by pedaling it past 25? The impact at 32 or 40 is the same whether I have restricted the bike or not.

My point was:

1) Arguing that a speed of 32kph is no different to a speed of 25kph, because any technical evaluation can show that is just not the case. You are actually making just the opposite case.

2) There is NO speed limit at 25kph. There is a support level limit. You can pedal up to the actual speed limit (if on the road) or as fast as your little legs will take you.

3) In Europe the major market for eBikes is not mountain biking. It is commuter road bikes. It's been a long time since I lived in South Africa, but I do not remember much any commuter cycling. (But I do remember having to have a 357 strapped very obviously to my leg to convince the idiots not to knock me off in my very few attempts at road biking.) The priorities are different to just a bit of riding between trails.

 

[GrahamPaul]

If we go that route, we could reduct casualities by 100% if we ban all motored vehicles. Is that the goal?

That already exists. It's called a pedestrian area - and most major towns and cities have them for their shopping zones. Usually bicycles are banned as well.

 

[R120]

We have a range of pedal assist bikes in my family. The EU limit has never ever been an issue or even consideration when I ride one of our Bergamont Hybrids to the local shops or around town, you just dont notice it.

However when I ride my EMTB its annoying on the trails , because it cuts out at my average speed.

But EMTB is a tiny portion of the wider EBIKE world, and as such we get caught up in the wider legal infrastructure.

I would not be happy with people blasting around on derestricted ebikes in my local town, because it would lead to more accidents, but I would like a higher limit for my own EMTB.

First world problems!

 

[B1rdie]

They should restrict the nr of words on these internet forums! Too long posts might get people confused out there and even cause injuries. ?

 

[Wernher]

My point was:

1) Arguing that a speed of 32kph is no different to a speed of 25kph, because any technical evaluation can show that is just not the case. You are actually making just the opposite case.
--- limiting the support is not going to lower the speed because people will still power past the support level. The accident at an unsupported 32 km/h is going to be just as big as the one at a supported 32 km/h.

2) There is NO speed limit at 25kph. There is a support level limit. You can pedal up to the actual speed limit (if on the road) or as fast as your little legs will take you.

-- Exactly! But raising the support level to 32 km/h will stop people from restricting their bikes because they won't have to and it doesn't mean people are going to necessarily ride faster. Common sense should prevail just as with a car where you can drive at insane speeds but people stick to speed restrictions which I am not against.

3) In Europe the major market for eBikes is not mountain biking. It is commuter road bikes. It's been a long time since I lived in South Africa, but I do not remember much any commuter cycling. (But I do remember having to have a 357 strapped very obviously to my leg to convince the idiots not to knock me off in the very few attempts at road biking.) The priorities are different to just a bit of riding between trails.

-- Correct on both points. We are built tough here and I lived on a farm until just more than a year ago where we were an even greater target for just being there.

See my notes embedded in your post. Next time you come to South Africa look me up and come for a ride. While I understand your view points and have respect for it, I disagree with it based on the premise of the limitation not on the restriction.

I believe people should in any case be more courteous and careful and that is an entirely different discussion.

I now live in paradise but we also have our challenges here. People on foot sharing trails with bikes and eMtb's and some dogs running loose just to make it a bit more interesting. Most people respect each other but some are becoming violent and protest against bikes and refuse to yield, even setting their dogs on bikers.

I started riding with a camera and make a point to be courteous and friendly. This is because some people started posting bogus stories about being run off their feet and being injured by bikers. It is amazing how people change when they are being filmed and now they can't lie. I now have no problems and people from everywhere great me friendly when they come across me riding. The first 5 kilos I do with my 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks running with as trail dogs. When people see me at other places they ask me where my dogs are.

The point of my story is that we should regulate ourselves and that most people are not exceeding the limits and probably won't but that they will unrestrict bikes if the support is limited to 25 because you hardly start riding before you hit the restriction. Apart from the previous generation Bosch most eMtb's don't really have a hard resistance but you can still feel it much more pronounced on a 25km/h limiter than on a 32 km/h limit probably because the software had actually been written for the higher limit and then just brought down on the 25 km/h versions without changing the soft limit. That is the reason people unrestrict their bikes. As said before I'm against unrestricting but that's because I have a reasonable 32 km/h support limit.

Now back to the issue of a lower support limit and accidents. Lowering the support will not reduce the speed. It will just make it a bit harder. If you are reckless you will continue to be reckless regardless how easy or difficult it is. The reason I hammer on speed and asked you what is your point is your lesson about the greater damage at greater speed which emphasizes speed.

Getting back to South Africa. We have a saying here that speed kills. It is not speed that kills but speed in dangerous circumstances which in South Africa is very relevant because we have drivers that will pull in front of you when you approach at 120 km/h when they are merely 50 to 100 meter in front of you. To insist that you want to drive at the speed limit in these circumstances is insane and driving slower is the right thing to do. In Germany you can drive at any speed you want on certain parts of the Autobahn and there are almost no casualties.

The same applies for driving a bicycle in congested areas on pavements. In traffic you're also better off if you can ride at or as near as possible to the speed that the traffic moves at. I've driven in Paris and it's insane with very few places that there are actual dedicated cycling paths.

The problem with normal bikes as well as eBikes is that they are not strictly regulated and or licenced and basically anybody can get on them and ride like idiots. It doesn't mean that you can't be held accountable for your actions.

So that's why to me massive fines on unrestriction of eBikes is not the way to go and will not change behaviour or make it safer for pedestrians. More importantly, the fact that a single pedestrian and an eBike was involved in an accident and resorting to the severe penalties is a knee jerk reaction that's not been thought through.

Now please let's move on to nicer topics and go for a nice ride on our restricted and unrestricted eMtb's ?

 

[Jopodriver]

It would be nice if there was a switch that we could use to easily switch between street legal (25kph) and trail legal (xxkph). Then we could easily obey laws where needed and have fun in the woods.

 

[Wernher]

It would be nice if there was a switch that we could use to easily switch between street legal (25kph) and trail legal (xxkph). Then we could easily obey laws where needed and have fun in the woods.

Most of the unrestriction solutions like Blueped, Greenped etc. has that functionality. On the Giant you can decide which button on the controller you want to use. Must people use either the walk assist button or the light button for that purpose. The problem is if you have it installed whether you use it or not, France proposes to fine and impound despite the fact that it didn't limit your speed but merely makes it sightly more difficult to ride at the higher speed. So leave your bike unrestricted, switch your support off completely and ride at 40 km/h killing a pedestrian and to be okay. Just don't have a device installed on your bike capable of supporting your pedaling over 25km/h. This is how ridiculous the whole kneejerk proposed legislation is. And remember France is part of the Euro Union so what are the test of the European Countries going to do? Surely they'll resist out am I naive?

 

[Jopodriver]

Most of the unrestriction solutions like Blueped, Greenped etc. has that functionality. On the Giant you can decide which button on the controller you want to use. Must people use either the walk assist button or the light button for that purpose. The problem is if you have it installed whether you use it or not, France proposes to fine and impound despite the fact that it didn't limit your speed but merely makes it sightly more difficult to ride at the higher speed. So leave your bike unrestricted, switch your support off completely and ride at 40 km/h killing a pedestrian and to be okay. Just don't have a device installed on your bike capable of supporting your pedaling over 25km/h. This is how ridiculous the whole kneejerk proposed legislation is. And remember France is part of the Euro Union so what are the test of the European Countries going to do? Surely they'll resist out am I naive?

How about if I use STunlocker or similar app to change the speed limit only to higher speeds when I am in forest and use 25kph limit otherwise? Is it legal according to France?

 

[Wernher]

How about if I use STunlocker or similar app to change the speed limit only to higher speeds when I am in forest and use 25kph limit otherwise? Is it legal according to France?

For Shimano there is software (don't know the name, that my brother uses on his Meridas that you can use to set everything completely configurable. His bikes were imported to SA from Europe, so he bought the US spec software and can now change between the different restrictions. For the older Levos there was a crowd that provided software where you could change the wheel size and then it would take the limit off. On the Giant and other Yamaha motored bikes you need a plug in dongle which activates the software and implement the changes, but that would be instantly recognizable if you inspect the bike. Blueped, Redped, Greenpad and Blackped are the most well know.I don't know STunlocker and what motors it covers.

 

[Zimmerframe]

How about if I use STunlocker or similar app to change the speed limit only to higher speeds when I am in forest and use 25kph limit otherwise? Is it legal according to France?

It would depend on if the forest was privately owned or public land. I have several thousand hectares of private forest on the doorstep.. but that links to some public sections.

That said quads and Motos are banned on all that private and public, but the private guy has to stick up gates and fell trees to block the knobs on Motos and in the public areas they still ride, I got cut up on a trail last week by one doing 90k. Tried to take his picture later and he got aggressive then fecked off and almost knocked two other cyclists off.

 

[Bomble]

That is just plain wrong. Do your research please. A reduction in speed limit from 30mph to 20mph results in a reduction of casualties by 40-60%. (Google it if you don't believe me, but here's a BMJ article of a properly conducted study to assist you.)

Not always true.
'Safer' 20mph zones led to rise in number of road deaths but too costly to reverse, council admits

 

[Fivetones]

Not always true.
'Safer' 20mph zones led to rise in number of road deaths but too costly to reverse, council admits

How many people are actually doing 20mph? It could be argued that wider adoption of the scheme will mean fewer urban transitions from 30 to 20 leading to greater adherence. Also is a year is too early to tell? If people stuck to 20 then the area is much more pleasant to be in as a resident, pedestrian or cyclist - it’s hard to argue against that.

 

[Doomanic]

Anyone who thinks that raising the assist limit to 32KPH will be the end of people wanting to derestrict their EBikes is deluded. It will still happen, look at the number of people who post on here without having even ridden one who claim they won’t bother if they can’t double the assist speed.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

He lives in New Zealand .. he's normally following the herd - but for different reasons ...

That is why I had to move to a remote place in south west Wales as he was taking all my hot blonde girlfriends away from me

 

[GrahamPaul]

Now please let's move on to nicer topics and go for a nice ride on our restricted and unrestricted eMtb's ?

Wernher, I think we agree on more points than we disagree. And those on which we disagree, probably more on semantics than substance.

I'd love to take you up on the visit... but there's the small matter of my wife's outstanding 30 days in jail for all her unpaid traffic fines.

(She left SA well before me - took fright when someone dumped a body on our drive and then tried to strangle our housekeeper. She took our son and flew out immediately. I stayed to clear up and sell up. I found out about the fines when the arresting officer turned up ).

 

[Wernher]

Wernher, I think we agree on more points than we disagree. And those on which we disagree, probably more on semantics than substance.

I'd love to take you up on the visit... but there's the small matter of my wife's outstanding 30 days in jail for all her unpaid traffic fines.

(She left SA well before me - took fright when someone dumped a body on our drive and then tried to strangle our housekeeper. She took our son and flew out immediately. I stayed to clear up and sell up. I found out about the fines when the arresting officer turned up ).

So your wife is the reason you now only ride at 25 km/h ??. We fortunately don't have the level of crime that you experienced here in paradise.

Well if you do happen to land here some day you're welcome. eMTb's have been a bit slow to come into SA with initially only Spec and a couple of Chinese hub motor models but now the dam wall has burst and there is no stopping it. Here in the Eastern Cape we have a very healthy eMtb community.

Keep the death off the roads. Ride on the pavements ?

 

[GrahamPaul]

So your wife is the reason you now only ride at 25 km/h ??. We fortunately don't have the level of crime that you experienced here in paradise.

Well if you do happen to land here some day you're welcome. eMTb's have been a bit slow to come into SA with initially only Spec and a couple of Chinese hub motor models but now the dam wall has burst and there is no stopping it. Here in the Eastern Cape we have a very healthy eMtb community.

Keep the death off the roads. Ride on the pavements ?

Nah... I've had to slow down a bit from increasing age causing decreasing reaction times. Going from a (fraction under) 300km/hr bike to a 255km/hr car (limited by German car manufacturers) to a 25km/hr bike has been a big change

BTW, I spent the last 15 years in Germany before moving to Spain. Those limitless parts of the Autobahn have all but disappeared. Mostly because of the now very international traffic the Autobahns carry. Too many people pull out into the outside lane not expecting anything to be approaching at the speed of light. Too many idiots towing caravans/trailers also pulling out into that lane, and trucks too, just expecting the folks already there to be able to slow down to their snail's crawl. All illegal but unstoppable, so the speed limits came in.

 

[Wernher]

Nah... I've had to slow down a bit from increasing age causing decreasing reaction times. Going from a (fraction under) 300km/hr bike to a 255km/hr car (limited by German car manufacturers) to a 25km/hr bike has been a big change

BTW, I spent the last 15 years in Germany before moving to Spain. Those limitless parts of the Autobahn have all but disappeared. Mostly because of the now very international traffic the Autobahns carry. Too many people pull out into the outside lane not expecting anything to be approaching at the speed of light. Too many idiots towing caravans/trailers also pulling out into that lane, and trucks too, just expecting the folks already there to be able to slow down to their snail's crawl. All illegal but unstoppable, so the speed limits came in.

Reality is that I've always said these hyper cars and bikes make no sense at all as there is only a short stretch of autobahn where you can give them free reign and the truth is that this is probably as you say very true short-lived.

Public spaces are not the place to force yourself on others. The lack of discipline is what's making this extremely dangerous.

So private land is the place to go. Behave their as well or we'll not be welcome in the future.

We had an older cyclist l killed here last year when he was overrun by a truck when he suffered either a stroke or a heart-attack. Fortunately for the truck driver who was in a serious state of shock, there were a lot of witnesses seeing the person swerving across the roads in the moments before the impact. It also happened in thick fog which made visibility very bad.

Just last week my brother and I were talking about it and we said that he may very well have survived the heart attack or stroke, whichever it was if it happened to him while riding on a trail, especially if he rode with someone or had a tracking device that people could track his movements with. A truck hitting you head on is however not providing you with that opportunity. I also used to be a motorbiker but more into touring.

Stay safe in Spain and keep the wheels rolling.

 

[STATO]

Not always true.
'Safer' 20mph zones led to rise in number of road deaths but too costly to reverse, council admits

And at the end, it says overall there is a reduction. Mainly the increase is due to only a weak implementation, so most are slower, so people percieve it safer, then probably get taken out by people who are not slower.

A nationwide review of 20mph limits published by the The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) last month concluded: "A large number of evaluation studies have demonstrated a link between the introduction of 20mph zones and a subsequent reduction in casualties. The size of the reductions and the consistency of results over a wide number of areas are further evidence for this link."
However, their review pointed out that 20mph zones in which other traffic calming measures were introduced alongside the reduction in limit were much more effective.
In Bath and North East Somerset they brought in the changes with a speed reduction and signs to indicate it only.
The RoSPA report noted: "20mph limits without traffic calming also reduces traffic speed, although this effect is smaller than when they are introduced with traffic calming or other measures. Their lower cost means that wider areas can be covered."