taserface E22 build log

[taserface]

Hello DIYers-

I plan to use this as an Dengfu E22 build log and I didn't want to needlessly clog up the main E22 thread (gonna try to offload some of my questions/updates here when possible, especially anything not E22 specific).

Deadline: Spring/Summer '23 (~February/March may be doable)

Plan:
This will likely turn into a ridiculously overpowered and overbuilt trail commuter (over the next few months). I want to be able to take the bike anywhere, but reality: 90% of the time it will be used on a ~30mile round trip work commute, about 24 miles of that is offroad with a mix of bike paths, gravel, dirt, etc with some hills and bumpy areas sprinkled in.

(Current bike: 2018 KHS 680+ 27.5+ hardtail conversion w/ BBSHD)

Parts List (will update here as any parts are added/changed):
Purchased:

• Frame: Dengfu E22 (18", spray paint: dark red)
• Suspension: Marzocchi Z1 (170mm) + Marzocchi Bomber Air (230x60)
• Brakes: Magura MT5E (HIGO-Closer/Schliesser) + Storm HC rotors (203mm)
• Stem: TAG Metals T1 (31.8x33)
• Handlebar: Persuader Alloy (840mm)
• Grips: ODI Rogue Lock-On
• Dropper: Brand-X Ascend Dropper Seatpost
• Pedals: Kona Wah Wah 2 Composite
• Cranks: Miranda 152mm Delta (Q:16 RF)
• Chain: SRAM EX1 Powerlock E-MTB 8 Speed Chain + Connector
• Battery: Samsung 50S 21700 cells and 14s 60a Daly BMS (custom 14s4p pack is the goal)
• Wheelset:
  • Front: LightBicycle EN932 (+50 grams)
    • Hub: Hope Pro 4 Front Hub (36h, 15x110mm)
    • Tire: Specialized Butcher Grid Trail 2.6" T9 (don't know much these, but cheap... will monitor for a 2.5" Assegai discount)
  • Rear: LightBicycle RM29C14 (+120 grams)
    • Hub: Kindernay VII (148mm/HYSEQ Onesie/36h/22t)
    • Tire: Specialized Ground Control 2.35" T7

Planned:

• Motor: Bafang Ultra + Innotrace controller
• Spokes: Length TBD, but likely DT Swiss Alpine III spokes.

Cost Tracker (ooph, I didn't tally everything until after ordering)

 

[taserface]

I do have a couple open questions that I need to sort out sooner than later:

Any guidance for what people feel is a good target for the lowest final gear ratio on a Bafang Ultra (or similar)? I am a big rider and I don't want to struggle with any steep hills, etc. Should I aim for a 1.0 or lower final ratio in first?... or can I *easily* get way with a higher ratio (erring on side of caution)?

I am considering the revolute hub to pair with a bafang ultra (200nm controller), but the gear ratios on the revolute are a bit taller than I was expecting (.8-3.15) and the largest sprocket they offer is 16t. It looks like I'd have to stick to BCD 64 to run a chainring that would keep the ratios reasonable.

Does anyone know of a BCD64 that would work well with Bafang Ultra? (I will need to maintain a good chainline.)

Thanks!

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

With the gear ratios into the IGH. On my bike with the Kindernay vii. I use a 44t front, into a 22t rear. (2:1)

From then on, I mostly find myself in the middle gear or higher for most riding. 4th, 5th usually, sometimes 6th. On straight line downhill fireroads i will get into top geae and max that out. For most climbing, I'm in 3rd, sometimes down to 2nd if it's very steep and technical. I rarely if ever use the 1st gear. I think the only time I'd actually want it is if I have a motor/battery fail, and need to slog it out back up a hill etc.

Overall I'm really happy with the 44>22 ratio. It seams like a good match for what I do.

If I was riding faster road speeds or more easy trail then I might want to go a little higher speed ratios.

 

[taserface]

With the gear ratios into the IGH. On my bike with the Kindernay vii. I use a 44t front, into a 22t rear. (2:1)

From then on, I mostly find myself in the middle gear or higher for most riding. 4th, 5th usually, sometimes 6th. On straight line downhill fireroads i will get into top geae and max that out. For most climbing, I'm in 3rd, sometimes down to 2nd if it's very steep and technical. I rarely if ever use the 1st gear. I think the only time I'd actually want it is if I have a motor/battery fail, and need to slog it out back up a hill etc.

Overall I'm really happy with the 44>22 ratio. It seams like a good match for what I do.

If I was riding faster road speeds or more easy trail then I might want to go a little higher speed ratios.

Great, thanks. Looks like second gear is .616 on the kindernay for a final ratio of 1.23 in your setup. If that's always manageable for big hills (with some electric assistance), I *might* be able to get away with bcd104: (30t/16t) * .8 (first gear for revolute) = 1.53 if I went with the hub1.

Looks like you're a bit over 4 for your top gear and I'd be almost 6 with the revolute. My lowest gear would be 25% over your second and my top gear would be 50% over yours.

I'm a heavier rider though, so that might be a little much and it seems like a sub 30t chairing might be a better idea with the revolute, but I don't know if there are any good BCD 64 options for the Ultra.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

The only issue I see with going smaller cogs (irrespective of ratio) is you then put all that load through less teeth/chain engagement. I don't know if it will be an issue with a 1/8 single speed system. But it was something I was concerned with with mine.

For example, I could achieve the same 2:1 ratio with say a 32t front, 16t rear. But then that same load would be spread over considerably less teeth. With my cassette trouble, it was the smaller gears with less teeth/chain interface that always wore first.

 

[taserface]

Yeah, good point and I'd prefer to go larger, but lookin like the taller range in the revolute (.8-3.15) paired with the largest sprocket they offer (16t), the ratios can get a bit unwieldy.

I've seen you hit some issues, but kindernay looking pretty good...

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Yeah, good point and I'd prefer to go larger, but lookin like the taller range in the revolute (.8-3.15) paired with the largest sprocket they offer (16t), the ratios can get a bit unwieldy.

I've seen you hit some issues, but kindernay looking pretty good...

Do you know what standard revolute use for thier cog interface? It may well be a common standard.

I know with the kindernay, they use the standard 9 slot single speed interface. (Like shimano HG pattern, but for 1 cog) And they seam to be common and readily available up to atleast 22t.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Kindernay are having a big sale for black Friday. So if you did want to go that route, them now the time

 

[TeoElFeo]

I like the idea of your build, and I am considering going down a similar route next spring.

However I must let you know that I don't believe 14s5p will fit into that frame. From my experience with my dengfu E10 size large 14s4p is the absolute maximum. The battery was a very tight fit.
Also, the BMS size was an issue, particularly the height. We had to choose 30a smart BMS because it was the only one being 10mm tall. Otherwise I don't believe that lid would close. I am attaching a photo below so that you could have an idea.

 

[taserface]

Do you know what standard revolute use for thier cog interface? It may well be a common standard.

I know with the kindernay, they use the standard 9 slot single speed interface. (Like shimano HG pattern, but for 1 cog) And they seam to be common and readily available up to atleast 22t.

No, but good idea and I'm trying to get this info. A 22t would help a lot: 1.09 first gear with 30t, 1.3 with 36t.

I like the idea of your build, and I am considering going down a similar route next spring.

However I must let you know that I don't believe 14s5p will fit into that frame. From my experience with my dengfu E10 size large 14s4p is the absolute maximum. The battery was a very tight fit.
Also, the BMS size was an issue, particularly the height. We had to choose 30a smart BMS because it was the only one being 10mm tall. Otherwise I don't believe that lid would close. I am attaching a photo below so that you could have an idea.

Thanks, yeah, I'll have to see what I can get away with, but I think you're right. I had seen Daxxie was able to (barely) fit a 14s5p in the E23 (but thought it was the E22 before checking again just now).

My main goal it to to try to hit 1kwh and 60a continuous. The Samsung 50S cells will get me there with a 14s4p (13s4p would be my next fallback option). The BMS I am planning to use is 18mm tall, but I have a few things I can try there, if needed. I'm gonna edit my post for 14s4p, though.

 

[taserface]

Kindernay are having a big sale for black Friday. So if you did want to go that route, them now the time

That hasn't started yet, right? I had my fingers crossed they would have a sale this week, but any idea how big the discount will be?

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

That hasn't started yet, right? I had my fingers crossed they would have a sale this week, but any idea how big the discount will be?

20% off

Use coupon

KINDERNAY20-BLACKFRIDAY

 

[taserface]

20% off

Use coupon

KINDERNAY20-BLACKFRIDAY

Awesome, thanks... google failed me.
Ordered: 148mm/HYSEQ Onesie/36h/22t.

I was flirting w/ Revolute, but there were a couple things that gave me pause (aside from the ratio considerations). Less unknowns+4x warranty+BF deal makes the decision easier.

EDIT: err, I'm gonna grab some extras (like oil, tensioner, etc). Anything else you'd suggest?

+Do you know what size rotors it comes with?

 

[taserface]

Hmm... 15% sale on Marzocchi stuff. I had the Bomber Z1 fork and Bomber Air shock on my radar, but still over a grand for the pair (after tax) and I was kinda hoping to stay closer to the $650-750 for the front/rear setup (I don't want to undermatch the rest of the build, but I'm also not gonna be doing any monster jumps anytime soon).

I'll see if anything else pops up, but for 'Fox Float-like' setup it's not a bad option to have...

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Y

Awesome, thanks... google failed me.
Ordered: 148mm/HYSEQ Onesie/36h/22t.

I was flirting w/ Revolute, but there were a couple things that gave me pause (aside from the ratio considerations). Less unknowns+4x warranty+BF deal makes the decision easier.

EDIT: err, I'm gonna grab some extras (like oil, tensioner, etc). Anything else you'd suggest?

+Do you know what size rotors it comes with?

You have to use 200mm rotors at the rear due to the torque arm adapter. I stacked an additional 20mm spacer to use my 220mm rotors, but it's not ideal.

The kindernay tensioner is a total piece of sh1t. It doesn't have any B screw adjustment. I had to modify mine just so it didn't foul on the 22t rear cog. It also has excessive play in the pivot and pulleys. I can not recommend it. I would hunt around elsewhere for a single speed tensioner. Or even modify a regular derailer so it is locked in posistion.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Hmm... 15% sale on Marzocchi stuff. I had the Bomber Z1 fork and Bomber Air shock on my radar, but still over a grand for the pair (after tax) and I was kinda hoping to stay closer to the $650-750 for the front/rear setup (I don't want to undermatch the rest of the build, but I'm also not gonna be doing any monster jumps anytime soon).

I'll see if anything else pops up, but for 'Fox Float-like' setup it's not a bad option to have...

I have marzochi z1 coil on the front, and bomber cr coil on the rear. It's nothing special, but gets the job done. I love the feel of coil fork. I don't think I will ever use another air fork after running the coil. And it's the same for rear suspension. I love the feel of coil.

 

[taserface]

I have marzochi z1 coil on the front, and bomber cr coil on the rear. It's nothing special, but gets the job done. I love the feel of coil fork. I don't think I will ever use another air fork after running the coil. And it's the same for rear suspension. I love the feel of coil.

Yeah, coil looks interesting to me, but I've only ridden on air, so the extra unknown on a larger purchase gives me pause (I'm not that far off from the upper rated weight limit for the coils and then add in the extra ebike weight...)

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Yeah, coil looks interesting to me, but I've only ridden on air, so the extra unknown on a larger purchase gives me pause (I'm not that far off from the upper rated weight limit for the coils and then add in the extra ebike weight...)

It depends on use. If you do alot of jumps / large drops, the air is probably better, for the faster progression rates possible. If you ride over alot of chop fast. Then coil is definitely far superior, because it tracks so much better/smoother over it.

 

[taserface]

It depends on use. If you do alot of jumps / large drops, the air is probably better, for the faster progression rates possible. If you ride over alot of chop fast. Then coil is definitely far superior, because it tracks so much better/smoother over it.

Yeah, I'm very much in the latter... and most of the feedback I've seen from people running shocks is quite positive. I'll dig into a bit more, but my only suspension experience is with an 2017/2018 Manitou Magnum Comp (Air/34mm/120mm) on a 27.5+ hardtail. I'm guessing most new/decent suspensions will feel like a big upgrade for me, especially with the addition of the shock.

Any issues with pedal bob? How does it behave over bumps while going uphill? Any other drawbacks? (other than big jumps/drops)

My biggest concern is the weight thing, though. I'm a big guy and out of shape, but even in shape I'm still gonna be over ~95kg (vs. ~110kg now) + plus bike weight. I don't know how true this is (especially these days), but I had always heard that coils aren't great for heavier riders and more difficult to tune. I'd have to go w/ the X-Firm coil and I'm under the top end rated range, but not by much (and accounting for the bike weight difference would definitely put me over). At a minimum, I'm outside of the bell curve.

Anyway, I'll see what I can find, hopefully before analysis paralysis starts to creep in.

EDIT: I reached out to Marzocchi to get their input... but probably won't pull the trigger on anything until Friday to see what other deals pop up, but there's a lot I like about the Marzocchi on paper (simple tuning, burly, decent value, etc).

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

I

Yeah, I'm very much in the latter... and most of the feedback I've seen from people running shocks is quite positive. I'll dig into a bit more, but my only suspension experience is with an 2017/2018 Manitou Magnum Comp (Air/34mm/120mm) on a 27.5+ hardtail. I'm guessing most new/decent suspensions will feel like a big upgrade for me, especially with the addition of the shock.

Any issues with pedal bob? How does it behave over bumps while going uphill? Any other drawbacks? (other than big jumps/drops)

My biggest concern is the weight thing, though. I'm a big guy and pretty out of shape, but even in shape I'm still gonna be over ~95kg (~110kg now) + plus bike weight. I don't know how true this is (especially these days), but I had always heard that coils aren't great for heavier riders. I'd have to go w/ the X-Firm coil and I'm under the top end rated range, but not by much (and accounting for the bike weight difference would definitely put me over).

Anyway, I'll see what I can find, hopefully before analysis paralysis starts to creep in.

Im about 100kgs. And all I did was put the bigger spring in.

Don't worry about weight. The bike is gonna be 25kg anyways. Another couple hundred grams for a spring is nothing. And the weight really doesn't affect the bike performance. You can still lean it over without any dramas.

I dont have any negatives with my suspension setup, although more options for damper settings would be nice. Like I've got it set pretty good. But I think more hi/lo comp, and fast/slow rebound would get it even better. I have a cane creek kitsuma coil on my other bike, and that is dialed in perfectly. Took me a while, with lots of fiddling and test riding. But it is very fine control over everything

Even the progression isn't really a problem. I still send decent size jumps on occasions. You just blow through travel deeper than would ideal. It's not really an issue for me though.

 

[taserface]

Ahh, yeah, I was just worried about the performance with my weight (vs. the extra weight w/ going coil). EG: if I have to run a x-firm spring at the edge of the rating, would that introduce undesired harshness/bounciness, etc. I'd feel a lot more comfortable testing going w/ a coil if it behaves well in that kind of setup/use.

For me, I actually kinda like the lack of hi/lo fast/slow granularity. I'm not that demanding of a rider, so keeping it simple is a perk. +I am a tuner by nature, but in this case I want something that I can more or less set/forget and just use (and appreciate the slightly dumbed down tuning on the Z1/Float, etc to save me from myself).

Ever bottomed it out ? Not that I'd be looking to go to the limit, but do you have a rough idea how big of a drop/jump you can handle, before it becomes a concern? (or how rough it would have to get before you'd prefer an air)

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Yeah. I've bottomed out a few times. Cos the bike is so fast, when I ride trails with more flatter jumps, the bike usually clears the whole jump and landing. So you land on flat. Probs about a 2m vertical hieght will cause it. (1m up the jump, and another 1m launching off the jump).

 

[taserface]

I'm not likely to be taking any drops touching half that height anytime soon . I'll see what Marzochhi says, as well. As an aside, I do think it's sliiightly annoying they both would come with a coil I can't use...

There are a couple Rockshox variants I have on my radar, but let me know if there are any other forks/shocks you would consider in this $$ range.

Also, I saw that your frame didn't come with any shock hardware. I am going to ask GBK if it's possible to order it before my frame ships. +I'll skim through the E22 thread before I order most things, but any other gotchas or missing parts or lessons learned you would have liked to have known when you started? (especially for anything not called out in the other thread)
Thanks.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

I wouldn't worry about the dengfu shock hardware. It is not a strong design. I ended up using a set of bushes from the company "offset bushings". They are a stronger design. You can get normal or offset if you want to over stroke the frame.

 

[taserface]

Well, I was reeeaally close to jumping on the coil train and I kept leaning back and forth, but found the 230x60 Bomber Air for $298 effective on another site (Marzocchi BF drop + $75 off general BF checkout savings + $10 capital one savings).

Though, coil is back on my radar and I maaay revisit later. There were a few minor feedback points I read that gave me a bit of pause. My issue is that my buying timeframe is too condensed and I think I should wait to try coil on another bike before jumping on that ship. Ideally, I would have started getting into all of this like a month ago .

Anyway, I'm over my original $750 target for front/rear suspension, but for right now, I think I'm happy with landing a Bomber Z1 and Air for ~$850* total.

(*before taxes )

 

[taserface]

Lookin at the magura mt5e higo-closer brakes: $220 shipped, $257 w/ 2 storm hc 203mm rotors.

Anything else I should consider deal hunting for? Brakes are important to me and I'd be willing to spend a bit more (especially for something more progressive), but not sure I'll be able to do much better w/r/t value (and compat w/ the ultra cutoff sensor is a nice little bonus).

EDIT: slight knee jerk purchase... low stock, got 'em

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

I run hope brakes on both my bike's and love em.

 

[taserface]

I run hope brakes on both my bike's and love em.

Those look great, but I wasn't quite ready to drop that much and hadn't seen any price movement on em... at all

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Those look great, but I wasn't quite ready to drop that much and hadn't seen any price movement on em... at all

You may still be able to find the older tech 3 stuff. They dropped prices everywhere on them when the tech 4 dropped

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Also. Start looking for a new thru axle for the rear.

The dengfu ones have an inherent fault, that the handle end unscrews from the main shaft when trying to unscrew the bolt from the bike.