Talk about derestricting / modifying bikes. Allowed or not? Poll - vote now!

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Hi all,

Here's a controversial one. I'm mixed on this. One one hand I feel that we're all adult enough to make choices. On another I feel as admin some level of responsibility to protect the EMTB community / wider impact on EMTB worldwide.

Here we will run a simple poll on whether we feel that we need to ban chat around derestricting bikes. Poll will run for 1 month. In the mean time all talk of derestricting will be moderated.

The poll is anonymous.

 

[EddieJ]

My thoughts on this are very clear, I am very anti.

Firstly, this is the current UK pedelec law UK Electric Bike Law and as such, ignoring it, has potential implications to trail access, and risk of prosecution in the event of an accident. I organize local eMTB group rides, and have two rules, the first being that a helmet must be worn, and the second is no derestricted bikes. I've turned away several riders now that have turned up with bikes fitted with dongles.

As an example for you Rob, and assuming that your own bike is still illegal to ride anywhere that has public access or right of way. Had you been involved in an accident at Bike Park Wales last week on your derestricted Levo, with some innocent person being injured, potentially you could have been looking at charges being made against you, and the Bike Park would be dragged into the equation as well, for allowing you onto the park. Their public liability insurance would be void, and it could soon become very messy. Clearly bike parks can't check bikes, and if I owned a bike park, I'd just have a blanket ban on all ebikes. As I have said previously, through discussion both face to face and via email, some sportive companies are already considering a blanket ban. The risk to them is too great to ignore. Just look at how the US is playing this out, with ebikes being banned from many public spaces.

I fail to see why people want to turn their ebikes into motorcycles, and if they do, then they shouldn't even own an eMTB. The derestricting on ebikes, is certainly starting to put me off of them and even beginning to raise an anti them side of me. I was one of the early adopters of eMTB's and certainly don't like the attitude of many of the new adopters. These aren't motorcycles, and ebike riders suffer enough abuse from non ebike users, and I can certainly see why that attitude is there.

Already on the forum, talk of derestriction has crept in, and has derailed a thread which was about maintenance, not derestriction. That is now one thread, that I don't see the point of contributing towards. edit... I see that the post has now been removed from the thread. Thank you.


I could add much more to this thread, including written example, but won't be doing so, as the thread will more than likely just go round in circles, with the pro user, dismissing claims. I have said my bit, and I'll not be contributing to this thread any further, other than to say that if nothing else, that the forum should have a pinned notice about the the current UK pedelec law.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Thanks for your input Eddie.

You’ve incorrectly assumed that my bike is deristricted. It’s not.

 

[EddieJ]

But it was, so I'm glad that you have decided to make it an eMTB that is now legal to use.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

But it was, so I'm glad that you have decided to make it an eMTB that is now legal to use.

View attachment 443

Yes, that was the Comp Carbon Levo (the wife's bike) that is back to standard. My new bike (Levo Expert) has never even been derestricted.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Now have a page here stating UK law:

UK Electric Bike Law

 

[ccrdave]

Interesting reading, i do wonder how they reached some conclusions however, for instance its perfectly legal to travel at more than 15.5mph using human power or gravity power but not pedal assist!! Maybe its just me but i fail to see the logic in that

 

[Kernow]

Well Iam new to ebikes , I dont even own one yet , although I have one on order . I’ve had a Levo on demmo for a week and had a few rides on a few different Bosch powered bikes .
I have to say I have had a dislike of ebikes , and still have ,or should I say some of the cocks who ride them , even today riding local trails I experienced an ebiker riding like he felt superior to us normal riders , splashing past on a muddy climb and riding too fast through a car park with little kids and families about . There’s another ebiker what has used strava on our local trails to beat all the records so those who enjoyed that competition are not happy .
I have no idea If any of the fools mentioned above had derestricted bikes as speeds in excess of the 15mph allowed wasn’t realavent .
What I do know is the Bosch ebikes I tried simply went flat at 15 mph and became a lead wieght attached to your legs . A 70 yr old mate who rides with me on my road bike on a touring ebike simply can’t keep up on flat stretches and downhill because his bike runs out of steam at 15 ish mph and i cruise at 18 mph this is such a pain that it can limit him riding with us .
I guess off-road a speed limiter makes no difference except on the odd fast downhill , I know at places like bike park wales speeds get well over 20 mph on the descents so Iam not sure what will happen then . Iam hoping I can still pedal and keep up with normal bikes
My main reason for buying an ebike is to be able to ride with my daughter and her friends who race enduro , I currently dont ride with her so much because I just can’t keep up on the climbs .
I currently feel If I find the speed restriction still limits my ability to keep up on the new e bike bike , I will certainly look into removing it .
I guess an ebike is a motorbike , all be it a very low powered motorbike , Ive been a keen morotorcyclist all my life and I remember when our nanny state decided to restrict motorbike power size and speed , in the interests of safety which it seemed to me created many more dangers and problems .
Seriously how fast is an ebike going to go when derestricted ? they aren’t exactly powerful things , Iam guessing just a few more mph will be all most off roaders can do and a road ebike is still not going to keep up with a fit rider on a fast road bike exept up hill so what really is the problem . Or am I mistaken do ebikes suddenly take off like a 250 moto crosser when derestricted spinning wheels and popping wheelies ?
My feeling is ebikes will always cause controversy with normal bikers if they are not ridden with respect , but there is no way we can restrict cocks buying them .
Iam presuming by de restricting or fitting a dongle you are simply removing that top speed restriction of 15mph so that the little motors don’t just cut out suddenly. Or am I wrong is acceleration improved too , although that’s direcly controlled still surely by how fit the rider is ?

 

[ccrdave]

I have ridden a derestricted bike, a turbo levo and once you reach 15 mile an hour the motor just keeps giving support, there is no massive surge of power, in fact not long after you reach that threashold you start to run out of gears anyway so the bike limits you mechanically just like any other bike would with a given gearset.
I can only speak for the turbo levo as i have no experience of other e bikes. I decided to run my bike with the restriction in place because
For me there is no benifit to the derestriction
I get the satisfaction of knowing that when im doing 20 mph on my bike its me providing the energy
And after all derestricting is illeagal
Where i ride in the forest of dean there are a few ebikers and i have never seen any bad behaviour from ebikers but i have seen some from normal bikers but its a very popular riding destination and there are lots of riders the vast majority all behave properly and all get along together

 

[ccrdave]

Just to add a bit about the turbo levo, the way it handle the transistion between power on and power off was a major selling point for me, with the motor off there is no restriction in the drive train just a 21 kg bike but once you are up to speed and you have good momentum its actually quite difficult to feel the motor stop assisting, of course you can but its very subtle no sudden wall of resistance and if your pointing downhill you can just keep pedaling until you gear out. Going uphill its a different story but 15 mph is plenty fast enough for going uphill and sometimes quite hard to achieve at least for an oldie like me

 

[Doomanic]

On my Bosch the switch from assisted to non-assisted is more marked in the higher assist modes. I can happily tank along at 20+ mph and the extra weight of the bike probably helps keep the momentum up. At slow speed when the battery dies is another thing altogether though; like riding through treacle until you have the cranks spinning at a decent speed.

WRT derestriction, I am opposed to it in general. My primary concern is what it could do to access rights. Looking at some of the proponents on Pedelecs it seems to be the more hooligan element that do it to eMTBs.

 

[EddieJ]

WRT derestriction, I am opposed to it in general. My primary concern is what it could do to access rights. Looking at some of the proponents on Pedelecs it seems to be the more hooligan element that do it to eMTBs.

*And people that only think of themselves, and have no regard towards the long term future of eMTB use in public spaces.


The forum is now hold for me, until I see how this threads pans out. I shall take a peek back at it in one months time.



*After saying that I wasn't going to contribute further too the thread.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

*And people that only think of themselves, and have no regard towards the long term future of eMTB use in public spaces.


The forum is now hold for me, until I see how this threads pans out. I shall take a peek back at it in one months time.



*After saying that I wasn't going to contribute further too the thread.

HI Eddie - that would be a shame if the forum is on hold for you. Hopefully this thread (and only this thread) can contain a good adult discussion about the laws / risks etc around derestricting EMTB's and build awareness on the issues surrounding it. I wonder if anyone rides derestricted on private land?

 

[Doomanic]

The forum is now hold for me, until I see how this threads pans out. I shall take a peek back at it in one months time.

As one of the more prolific posters that's a shame but I'm not sure why you'd continue to frequent Pedelecs on those grounds. Derestriction seems to be a common theme from some posters and if it against the rules not a great deal seems to be done about it.

FWIW, I think there should be a third option on the poll, where rather than remove posts we direct the posters towards current UK law and advise them of the potential negative effects.

 

[ccrdave]

We have a very experienced and sensible bunch of guys here who can see derestriction for what it actually is, making it out to be some taboo subject not to be talked about just deepens the mystery and there will always be people who like a mystery, there will always be people who think derestrictiong their bikes will turn them into some self propeled rocket tearing up the trails. Nothing could be further from the truth, i know it differs from bike to bike but quite frankly its an anti climax and acording to uk law unless you are on private land with permission ITS ILLEGAL and all it will do is damage the reputation of ebikers who dont have a head start in this game anyway. We will be much better off using this subject to educate rather than scold and discriminate.

 

[Eckythump]

FWIW, I think there should be a third option on the poll, where rather than remove posts we direct the posters towards current UK law and advise them of the potential negative effects.

Pointing folk in the direction of regulations is a good idea. I also think direction to, or links to purchase de-restricting solutions should not be allowed in the forums.

I think banning all talk about the subject and people’s opinions on it is counter productive. It’s pointless burying your head in the sand and/or alienating others who have a different opinions.

There is a discussion on a number of benifits of an app available which is also able to modify the top assist level, do you ban that because it could be misused? Another where people are asking about bigger chainrings because they want to go faster, do you ban that?

In addition, the site is emtbforums.com not .co.uk
There are already plenty of users from around the world where the rules are different to the UK and it would be a bit of a snub to deny discussion by those who are fully entitled to use a de-restricted bike.

I wholeheartedly support democracy though so will support the outcome whichever way the vote goes. I am surprised how few votes there have been so far......

Doomanic, sorry, the first paragraph only really applies to the quote from your post please don’t think the rest is a reflection on it??

 

[Japuserid]

Such a shame that our EU law makers did not better consider the actual limit they were setting, if they had set it just marginally higher at say 20mph then I think hardly anyone would bother. And to add a little perspective, It's also worth remembering that 250 watts of assisted power is still only 0.33991 Horsepower (hp) which is hardly going to set the world on fire limited or not.

 

[Varaxis]

Shady behavior should be kept off the record. I don't want any evidence, nor indication of it, online. I have my dignity and integrity to uphold.

I will tolerate the discussion of such mods, for the sake of knowing about them, but not any encouragement of it. I don't want to even see disclaimers, or any case-by-case referencing. If someone wants people to post their anecdotes of battery life with current mtb pre-built systems, I'm sure people will want to share knowledge of special cases involving non-condoned systems getting different mileage, perhaps dancing around the wording of it. I'd like if people would just keep things standardized on a common experience that the vast majority can relate to. If someone replaces an EU controller with a US controller, I will not judge them.

There's other forums for such talk. I don't want to be part of those forums. I'd like this one to have no regrets in its actions, and have some good in its core values, to perhaps represent eMTBrs in a time where we're getting a lot of attention and legislation is being passed based on fears and poor logic (e.g. slippery slope, and social judgement from authoritarian anti-mtb groups). People leave groups that they don't want to be associated with.

IMO, we should promote decency and we should define what a community is. How should members get involved and how should they treat others? Like brothers and sisters? Little and big ones? A forum with such few members can be relatively close-knit.

I'll add if anyone chooses to challenge a law that we agree is unjust, and chooses to defy it in a peaceful manner like a revolutionary (e.g. MLK Jr.), I do not mind joining to support such a cause. I just believe that we should be seen as righteous, rather than selfish, which is where the community and decency part comes in.

If we are exposed to such underground behavior, we could become more tolerant, and it'll affect our morals. What's considered to be deceptive and questionable, might not seem so bad when you're exposed to it on a fairly regular basis. I am only forgiving after-the-fact, when the results are very positive without lingering negative side-effects, when choosing a questionable option among other less questionable options. I enjoy a good philosophical debate, and understand you can't please everyone, but I will admit that I'm not courageous and will err on the side of caution and self-control when faced with difficult decisions that have very significant negative side-effects.

 

[eFat]

Such a shame that our EU law makers did not better consider the actual limit they were setting, if they had set it just marginally higher at say 20mph then I think hardly anyone would bother.

On the road yes, but for MTB 25 km/h is really not an issue at all.

 

[Eckythump]

On the road yes, but for MTB 25 km/h is really not an issue at all.

Not sure I agree with you there. 16mph cut off on pedally gravity trails is a pain. Any sections you are exceeding 20mph you are not pedalling generally.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Can we get some more votes? It’s totally anonymous so we won’t know either way!

 

[Doomanic]

I don't agree with either option to be honest.

 

[Kernow]

Such a shame that our EU law makers did not better consider the actual limit they were setting, if they had set it just marginally higher at say 20mph then I think hardly anyone would bother. And to add a little perspective, It's also worth remembering that 250 watts of assisted power is still only 0.33991 Horsepower (hp) which is hardly going to set the world on fire limited or not.

I think that puts the whole debate into perspective for me , we see advertising and all the videos show the manufacturers claiming better performance , more torque etc , modes that give a kick of acceleration etc , maybe that should be looked at too and banned , none of them are the same anyway ,
the gearing on my 1x11 mtb runs out at about 20 mph , So that’s surely how all the manufacturers intended Ebikes to work , then some silly eu lawmaker who probably never even rides a bike decides they should be limited to 15.5 mph , not 16 not 15 . I doubt the anti mtb people mentioned in this thread even know about restriction of speed or power or anything else , they just hate people cyclng off road .
I wonder who would buy a car limited to 70 mph , that wouldn’t allow you to exceeed any speed limit , hom many of us have never had a speeding ticket , or any other traffic violation .
Fact is you can’t tune these things to be racing machines because they will only ever give you 250 watts of power , that is surely the restriction in itself , there is simply no need for a law , they have already made everything pedal assist only , we just live in the nanny state , There’s some great advertising videos of works riders on Emtb’s riding downhill and jump tracks, for sure they are not riding bikes that cut out at 15.5 mph.
We would do far better having an education thread to stop bikers leaving littter , bottles dead tubes etc in the countryside .

 

[Japuserid]

Well that vote looks fairly conclusive.

Rules and regulation's and in this case poorly considered legislation.......as my grand dad would often tell me, are simply guidance to the wise and the for the obedience of fool's.

 

[eFat]

... they should be limited to 15.5 mph , not 16 not 15 . ...

25 km/h is a much more "round" number.

When the 25 km/h limit was decided there was no electric MTB around. The bikes available were mainly city bikes and this limit is adequate for this kind of bikes.

And I think it's also perfectly adequate for MTB.

If you want to ride on the road and be assisted at higher speed there is the 45 km/h class.

 

[Kernow]

25 km/h is a much more "round" number.

When the 25 km/h limit was decided there was no electric MTB around. The bikes available were mainly city bikes and this limit is adequate for this kind of bikes.

And I think it's also perfectly adequate for MTB.

If you want to ride on the road and be assisted at higher speed there is the 45 km/h class.

I think 25 kmh equates to 15.5 mph , a round number indeed decided in the city for the city by the city rule makers .
15.5 is adequate for most off road until you get to some faster downhill bike park sections where ebikes are cursed for holding up pedal bikes who have worked very hard to get to the top ,
Not heard of a 45k road class , that is surely moped of motorcycle requiring licence insurance etc

 

[Doomanic]

Yes, it’s called Speed Pedelecs and has the same requirements as a moped. There is a guy on the Pedelecs forum who’s done it but I think it was a bit of a ball ache.

I’d like to see the limit raised a bit, 20mph should be enough for me. I was tanking along at 17-18mph at the FoD today and a little more assistance would have been nice.

I will not be derestricting my bike though. The law is often an ass, but it’s the law.

 

[Kernow]

Yes, it’s called Speed Pedelecs and has the same requirements as a moped. There is a guy on the Pedelecs forum who’s done it but I think it was a bit of a ball ache.

I’d like to see the limit raised a bit, 20mph should be enough for me. I was tanking along at 17-18mph at the FoD today and a little more assistance would have been nice.

I will not be derestricting my bike though. The law is often an ass, but it’s the law.

The law only applies to the use on the road though ?

 

[Doomanic]

Anywhere with public access that you can legally ride a pedal cycle as far as I know.

 

[Eckythump]

You have to comply with the 25kph pedelec regs for public rights of way, bridleways, RUPPs, BOATs, etc, or whatever they are called now. Forestry Comission and bike parks will come down to the land owner.
The majority of ‘hand cut’ trails are generally illegally built so shouldn’t be used anyway.... Are we allowed to talk about those or show pictures of trail building equipment?