Talk about derestricting / modifying bikes. Allowed or not? Poll - vote now!

[Kernow]

%g

Anywhere with public access that you can legally ride a pedal cycle as far as I know.

i like that rule , I live and ride on Bodmin moor , no one actually knows if it’s even legal to ride a bicycle up here , fact is no one cares iether Same on Dartmoor where I can usually be found if Iam not on Bodmin moor

 

[Pottsy]

Sorry for being thick but how do u access the poll

 

[Kernow]

Sorry for being thick but how do u access the poll

Just click on the one you like

 

[Pottsy]

Sorry for being thick but how do u access the poll

Panic over Captain Mannering, I found it. (couldn't see it on Tapatalk)

 

[Pottsy]

Just click on the one you like

Thanks, just found it.

 

[eFat]

Everything is relative. My last ride:

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

View attachment 496​

Everything is relative. My last ride:

View attachment 497

Leisurely pace?

 

[Japuserid]

View attachment 496​

Everything is relative. My last ride:

View attachment 497

Hi eFat

Sorry to have to disagree with you but, that's not relative at all, that's simply unbelievable, The ave human walks faster than that, 3.1 Mph or 5 Kmh. Where on earth were you riding, or more to the point, not actually riding very much, for those two and a half hours ?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I think @eFat from what I recall rides in thick snow?

 

[Japuserid]

I think @eFat from what I recall rides in thick snow?

That would explain it, sounds like fun Definitely no point in de-restricting that bike.

 

[eFat]

That would explain it, sounds like fun Definitely no point in de-restricting that bike.

Yes, it was in snow and this day I had to push a fair bit!

To get back to the initial subject, I'm for allowing the discussion of modified bikes but I cannot really see the point of it, for a MTB usage. When (20mph?) will make the difference and be useful?

 

[Japuserid]

Yes, it was in snow and this day I had to push a fair bit!

To get back to the initial subject, I'm for allowing the discussion of modified bikes but I cannot really see the point of it, for a MTB usage. When (20mph?) will make the difference and be useful?

Yes it really would make a positive difference, there are many miles of flat, flowing single track here it the UK where you are constantly up against the limiter on an assisted bike and on a normal non assisted bike the average speed through these sections can be anything up-to and around 20 mph. I honestly think the American's have set a much better and considered limit, that if adopted in Europe would almost certainly massively reduce the actual amount of de restricted bikes in use.

 

[Kernow]

This is a hard winter ride on our local trails On a pedal bike ,, I pushed over a mile to the top of one hill and everyone else was waiting lots for me if I have a restricted ebike they will be waiting on the decent instead of the ascent . I would say this is on the lower side of average for most riders I know. And if we were in wales or even bigger hills the speed would be even higher on the downs .
The whole point of an enduro ebike is to climb easily and more so you can enjoy more decents , if I can’t do that why would I even buy one ?
Eddiej is the most against derestricting but admits he likes to do more trials than fast downhill , I respect trials very much but it really doesn’t require speed

 

[Japuserid]

I think a lot of people are missing the point and putting way to much emphasis on de-restriction as the source of our potential future woe's. Ultimately it is the way we interact with other users that will determine if there is to be any need for special or punitive measures against ebikes and owners.

I honestly believe the overwhelming majority of E bike owners, just like normal bike owners, are decent, polite, respectful and responsible people and regardless of the restricted or unrestricted status of their bikes, very few of them will be riding recklessly and without due care to other users, cyclist or pedestrian.

Unfortunately, there will always be a small minority of Idiots, who do ride recklessly and will continue to do so on whatever they are riding, Ebike non Ebike restricted or non restricted or whatever they happen to be on. But I'm quite sure if the rest of us would be prepaired to let them know they are being Idiots and help them to understand the error of their way's..... that's the way we will protect our future right's, not with ill considered, even if it is well intention-ed legislation.

How many of us drive cars or motorcycles that are well capable of exceeding the national speed limit's and still have clean licences, that's not to say we don't exceed them occasionally, when it's safe to do so.

This subject should not be pushed underground, it will not just disappear because a few people don't like it, it needs to be discussed in the open and who know's in time, we might be able to influence and change the laws to better reflect our requirements.

 

[kcarbon]

Australia is probably one of the biggest granny country's out there. that's when it comes to speed laws, road safety laws & so on. so we have the euro 24kph restriction. I'm quite happy with how my levo came. I've been more interested in tuning the ride downhill over very rough surface.

 

[Doomanic]

As we’re looking at speeds, here’s mine from Saturday;

And the last clockwork ride I did at the FoD;

Don’t know what it adds to the discussion, but I was feeling left out...

 

[Kernow]

As we’re looking at speeds, here’s mine from Saturday;
View attachment 511


And the last clockwork ride I did at the FoD;
View attachment 512

Don’t know what it adds to the discussion, but I was feeling left out...

What were you riding . Big ring ? 2x front set up on an ebike ? . What’s the verderers some high speeds there but without any info it doesn’t add to the discussion

 

[Doomanic]

First on is the Trek Powerfly, second is my clockwork Nukeproof Mega 275 with a 2x chainset.
The Verderers is the Blue Trail at the FoD, with about 900ft of climbing each lap. The high speeds were achieved on the descents (obviously) but they are not fireroads.
Full activities here;
21.2 mi Ride Activity on February 17, 2018 by Dominic H. on Strava
13.1 mi Ride Activity on November 18, 2017 by Dominic H. on Strava
And a doarama of Saturday's ride;
Login - Doarama

 

[Taffyteg]

Wow - lots of varied opinions on here which is great.
Personally I sometimes find the 15mph limit a problem on some single track trails. When the motor cuts out and you are concentrating on keeping the bike on the trail, you start to wonder has something broken - a bit off putting and you can make a mistake. You can regularly hit 15mph on the trails, if the limit was a little higher say at 20mph, I don't think you would notice it as generally you can only do that sort of speed on firetrails.
As for derestricting etc... I personally can't see a issue with it, as you are not likely to cause any additional harm having assist above 15mph as your wheel torque is dropping off a lot. You are more likely to cause trail damage at low speed when you input high pedal torque coming out of a corner etc.. and the motor adds some more on top. I can quite easily spin the wheel on loose stuff in this instance - and all this is below 15mph.
Now this is just my opinion - we are all different and we have all broken the rules in our lifetime (every time you drive a car), as long as you dont take the micky, no one worries and no one cares.

 

[Varaxis]

I believe laws should be contested more formally. A convincing argument should be made that considers all perspectives. You need to essentially prove to everyone, not only yourself and a small number of like-minded people, that the rule is too conservative.

We share this world, yet people wish to take ownership of part of it for their own personal desires. You have to accept that people want to be conservative when it comes to the unknown. People have stuff they want to protect and preserve. It should be expected for people to question what down-sides come with such gain.

When you have to question the ethics of certain behavior and use personal opinion and belief to answer it, rather than facts that paint a large and clear enough picture of it, you simply end up with a weak answer. Taking that answer and acting on it, rather than trying to improve it, is foolish. People commonly label a long history of foolish behavior, done under the radar, as scandalous.

Consider the options: not derestricting/modding abiding the law, organizing an effort to formally contest the law, circumventing the law by personally modding their bikes... surely there's more options, but can you seriously say you are picking the wisest option among these 3 if you choose the 3rd option?

Don't think everyone's a bigot/hater or has not seen your side of the argument. Don't segregate. Such impactful change is not easily attained on your own or in small numbers. You should rely more on community and be more resourceful. Think bigger.

People have tolerance when it comes to collateral damage related to a greater cause or need, such as cars being used for transportation. When it comes to recreation, you should be much more responsible and not put excess burden on others. Don't underestimate how your presence and actions impact the response of others around you. You have to respect the security that such features/rules grant, ones that limit the damage that can be done. If there weren't limits on damage, not only on your behavior but the authorities' behavior, imagine the penalties some people would face, such as eye-for-an-eye punishment. Next thing you know, people would be committing the same rule breaking against you as punishment--if you accidentally collided into someone with a derestricted ebike, you'd better be prepared to feel what it's like to be on the receiving end by someone less merciful.

Be grateful for what you have. This 15.5 mph rule may be the reason why ebikes are even allowed on a number of EU trails, and the 750W 20 mph rule may be why ebikes are still heavily banned from US singletrack. I see opportunity through letting ebikes be accepted in great number first, then having the rule relaxed a little. Don't ruin this opportunity. I can't speak for others, but I'll say that I personally do care if you break rules--don't be surprised if you're silently judged as an asshole.

 

[Varaxis]

^ I didn't want my post to be excessively wordy, so some of my points I touched on are quite undeveloped. I'd prefer if you asked if don't understand something, and want me to elaborate, rather than take a misunderstanding and turn it into some emotional response for something petty.

To help give context on my perspective, I'll state that I'm former US military. Military punishments are quite severe, but more in a humiliating way, than in an eye-for-an-eye way. No, I didn't have to trim grass with scissors or anything like that. I knew better than to break the rules. There are rules for many reasons and there are stories behind every sign. A big reason is that predictability allows for better planning and cooperation (less chaos, more order -> less stress, more peace). This is why I treat rule breaking somewhat more seriously, since I have at least a hint of why it matters in the bigger picture.

 

[Japuserid]

^ I didn't want my post to be excessively wordy................

So Varaxis, just to be clear, are you, agreeing or disagreeing that this topic should be openly discussed on this forum as per the original question?

You have said previously in this thread...........

Shady behavior should be kept off the record. I don't want any evidence, nor indication of it, online. I have my dignity and integrity to uphold.

And

I will tolerate the discussion of such mods, for the sake of knowing about them, but not any encouragement of it.

And are you suggesting that we all adopt, Military style, blind obedience to all laws and regulation's, in order to avert some sort of potential civil unrest, caused by people using de-restricted E-bikes?

 

[J dog]

I agree that 16 mph cut off is annoying. I ride with a group and am the only one on electric, I find on fire roads and tarmac we often ride between 16-18 mph and it can be a real pain (although everywhere else is sheer joy!) The 20 mph American limit would be spot on, but there again they also have other problems over there too.

 

[Varaxis]

@Japuserid Discussion of the such mods for the sake of knowing about the technology behind them. You know, mere hypothetical talk. I don't want to be that ignorant guy that says stuff like "modded ebikes are a myth, I never seen a modded ebike nor any kits that are easily installed." I'd rather say that I know of at least of one, such as a speed sensor mod, be able to get an idea of how serious it is and how it incognito it is, and also be able to detect others with it, so I can get an idea of just how many ebikers are not-legit.

I think it's foolish to incriminate oneself on a public forum that everyone can access.

 

[Japuserid]

I can't quite see how just simply talking about the subject, would in any way incriminate someone, as far as I can see no one has openly admitted to breaking any relevant laws, a few people have admitted to speeding occasionally, myself included and many have stated their opinion as to the relevance of the law.

The purpose of this thread is simply to establish, by vote, our E-mtb's communities willingness or not, to openly discuss the rights and wrongs of this subject on an on going basis.

 

[eFat]

Be grateful for what you have. This 15.5 mph rule may be the reason why ebikes are even allowed on a number of EU trails, and the 750W 20 mph rule may be why ebikes are still heavily banned from US singletrack.

I agree that 16 mph cut off is annoying. I ride with a group and am the only one on electric, I find on fire roads and tarmac we often ride between 16-18 mph and it can be a real pain (although everywhere else is sheer joy!) The 20 mph American limit would be spot on, but there again they also have other problems over there too.

On Mtbr forum many US riders would prefer to have the 25km/h / 250W rule as this would put them in a more "harmless" category.

 

[Hedge Monkey]

Okay new here
Vapeing 3ml eu law
I use a 5ml tank
Driving a car at 50mph on a quiet 40 mph limit
I don’t think that the ability of riding a e bike to the limit of gearing/gravity
Is instantly going to make me a complete idiot when I could quite easily do the same on a vintage style mtb.
As for staying in the law i will .
But do i agree well sorry but no
250 w and peddle assists surly should be the only restrictions.
As for being able to discuss such things
Freedom of speech springs to mind..

 

[Varaxis]

I can't quite see how just simply talking about the subject, would in any way incriminate someone, as far as I can see no one has openly admitted to breaking any relevant laws, a few people have admitted to speeding occasionally, myself included and many have stated their opinion as to the relevance of the law.

The purpose of this thread is simply to establish, by vote, our E-mtb's communities willingness or not, to openly discuss the rights and wrongs of this subject on an on going basis.

It's called a confession. Derestricting an ebike changes its classification under the law. Connect talk to derestricting to other talk that is likely to happen on an emtb board, such as talking about riding singletrack and you create trouble. I prefer the option that has less trouble. It's not like other social taboos, where one can come out of their closet with fetishes after testing the waters for tolerance.

Most polls are mere popularity contests. This one apparently has the power to change the fate of the forum itself. Ideally, votes should have reason and accountability backing it, not anonymous populism. Direct democracy is an extreme ideology--it's taken lives of Jesus, Socrates, innocent women accused of witchcraft, etc. Votes were considered equal, yet weren't equal in reality. Slaves and women didn't get to vote. A vote of a leper was worth as much as a vote from a wise philosopher. Not a single country exists which implements it, not Switzerland nor even Greece. Why it fails can be explained by Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. Thomas Jefferson, one of the US's founding fathers and 3rd president, was adamantly opposed to direct democracy. A form of voting was introduced because people demanded a way to be more directly involved. Nowadays, a US citizen is best off sending a letter to a member of congress representing their district to "vote", which means compelling them with reason.

Hedge Monkey mentions freedom of speech. Lies, hate, and snitching are speech too. I prefer freedom to not go there. Freedom is great, but there's a fine balance between the freedom to [do actions you desire] and freedom from [dealing with others' action]. I recognize that legislation helps maintain order by defining a line. The line is often a compromise, but how you view it (good/bad) is a mere matter of personal perspective. You can easily change your perspective, but not a law until you have clear majority support, and I don't mean a majority among a niche group.

If this policy about tolerating talk about derestricting ebikes (content that include derestricting, hacking and modding engines to circumvent local laws) goes through due to this poll, I will consider this place a lost cause. Pride and integrity are important values and I prefer to keep mine. Throw them aside and such a reputation will catch up to you.

 

[Hedge Monkey]

Wo there
We are talking about being able to peddle a 250w Motor to its full potential .
The gearing alone will limit speed let alone the 0.3 hp created
Is minimal
If a vintage bike can be peddled at these speeds I’m sorry but what’s the difference.
Another quote was e bikes getting in the way because of the restrictions
And another was that they couldn’t keep up on fire tracks ect.
Surely keeping the peddle assist
Going with effort would not really cause any issues.
As for dragging Jesus slavery ect into the equation....
Really..
I agree 250w is sufficient
I think more investment in range and efficiency is good.
And the more effort i put into peddling i expect to have the control assist to the protential of the product.
Has any one even done the math on how much damage a up lift van causes the environment
In the future I hope all vintage bikes and 12mpg up lifts are gone
Solar wind and water ways of creating electricity are the future .

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

If this policy about tolerating talk about derestricting ebikes (content that include derestricting, hacking and modding engines to circumvent local laws) goes through due to this poll, I will consider this place a lost cause. Pride and integrity are important values and I prefer to keep mine. Throw them aside and such a reputation will catch up to you.

Even if the byproduct is that there is more awareness to the local laws and that may change ones decision to do any kind of modification?