Talk about derestricting / modifying bikes. Allowed or not? Poll - vote now!

[Al Boneta]

My fundamental political beliefs are based on this one principle:

I don’t know or pretend to know what is best for other people and I sure as hell don’t want people deciding what’s best for me.

So if people choose to derestrict their own bikes, they bought with their own money, who am I to tell you not too.

Here in the supposed land of the free, our bikes are governed to 20mph. If they were governed to 15.5mph, I would probably not enjoy riding Emtbs as much.

Also in the so called land of the free, the biggest hurdle for Emtbs is land access. Most mountain bike trails in this country (international joke) are multiuser. So you’ll have hikers and equestrians using the same trail system as mountain bikers. Mountain bike riders must yield the trail to both equestrians and hikers. There have been numerous collisions and accidents involving mountain bikers hitting these other trail users. The equestrians are generally wealthy people who actually vote and complain to local government when they feel they have been wronged.
So for the most part mountain bike riders are tolerated and we definitely feel like at any moment the very thing we love to do, can be taken away from us.

So tell me, which do you think causes more trail damage, a mountain bike or a horse?
According to our regional parks department it’s mountain bikes. Even though our trails have horseshoe divots all over them which requires frequent trail maintenance (never has a horseback rider ever shown up on maintenance day), but their horses are allowed to shit anywhere they like. If I walk my dog on the same trail, I am required by law to pick up his excremen. Dog shit compared to horse shit is like a couple nuggets compared to a war crime.

Now because of all of this, the biggest group that wants to rid the trails of Emtbs is acoustic mountain bike riders.
They want our “motorcycles” off the trails to prevent the loss of their privileges to ride and repair horse trampled meadow muffin mine fields.

So here I am explaining to mountain bikers that my Emtb isn’t a motorcycle at all, it only goes 20mph, it doesn’t have a throttle, it can’t spin out, I have to pedal it to make it move etc.

And someone comes ripping by on an ebike going 40mph up a super steep grade without a single pedal stroke.

It made me look foolish, but it made look like a liar with a hidden agenda. We have enough of that with the orange baboon the Russians elected for us

I love that Emtbs are becoming more popular, they have basically saved brick and mortar bike shops like mine. They have made mountain biking possible for people who weren’t physically able to get out on the trails.

When we have our Sunday shop ride, I have to turn those away who have modified or hacked their bikes, because in the lawsuit capital of the entire universe, I can’t afford the liability.

These bikes for me, go fast enough. If. I feel the need to go faster, I take my KTM 450 out on the track.

The warranty issue is a big one for me also. When a motor fails and Specialized sends me a new one to install in customer’s bike, we are not paid for the labor.

We do not get paid.

So I am paying a technician out of pocket for the 30-45 minute motor swap.

But to a lot of people that hack these bikes, they seem to have no qualms at all about lying to us about how their motor just died out of the blue while they were “just riding along”

What do I do? It’s a good customer of mine who I know derestricted his bike and the motor is finished.

What do I tell my customer? What do I tell Specialized?

The question of whether or not to derestrict for the consumer has just become a bigger question for retailers like myself, that now has potential legal and financial ramifications.

This is just another reason these bikes are so damn expensive.

Don’t get me wrong, I have thought about hacking, but there is a lot more to it than morals or ethics involved

All of this goes through my head while I am being called a “CHEATER!” by a 24 year old who wasn’t even swimming in his father’s testicles when I started riding.

Sorry this turned into a sort of preachy essay.

 

[Kernow]

Yes we’ve done all this I know , I agree with most of what you say , however the bike that came hacking past at 40 not peddling was not a derestricted ebike ,as we know it on here , that simply isn’t possible . A derestriced bike still only goes faster if you have the fitness and power to pedal it , and up anything I would call a hill you can’t even get to the restricted speed , as you say your 20 mph is probably enough anyway .
There’s also a thread on here talking about spesh motors , derestricting wont damage them , or any other make for that matter , they are not made to be restricted it’s only legislation that restricts , and its only the Speed cut off that’s restricted there is no more power being made, so the motor isn’t working any harder above the legislated speed .

 

[Al Boneta]

Yes we’ve done all this I know , I agree with most of what you say , however the bike that came hacking past at 40 not peddling was not a derestricted ebike ,as we know it on here , that simply isn’t possible . A derestriced bike still only goes faster if you have the fitness and power to pedal it , and up anything I would call a hill you can’t even get to the restricted speed , as you say your 20 mph is probably enough anyway .
There’s also a thread on here talking about spesh motors , derestricting wont damage them , they are not made to be restricted it’s only legislation that restricts , and its only the Speed cut off that’s restricted there is no more power being made

I am not pointing fingers, simply sharing my personal beliefs on the subject. Sorry if you disagree, I met no offense.

Here’s the thing about that bike that flew past us going 40mph.

Derestricted or not, to someone Who is already critical of Ebikes in general probably doesn’t know the difference between one bike or any other.

To them it’s a “Motorcycle”

I ride a Kenevo with Renthal handlebars and an Öhlins Shock, both Motorsport brands that scream “OFF ROAD MOTORCYCLE!”

To you average non cyclist my 2.8 tire look very Motorcycle like, as does my full face helmet and my Moto inspired Troy Lee Jersey and pants.

Yes it was a Haibike with an aftermarket throttle purchased off a German website. I actually had him strike up a conversation with me as I was loading my bike on to my rack. He was simply flabbergasted that I felt the need to pedal and didn’t feel the need to make my bike any faster. The best part was the guy actually worked at Bosch NA

Again I am not telling anyone what to do with their own property.

I have sold over 200 Specialized Ebikes since May of 2016. I have seen dongles, magnets moved to the cranks and sensors moved to the chainstay. Even an Indonesian app that made one of my customers bike hit 60mph.

I have only ever had 5 motors fail. One was submerged in Huntington Beach and the rest were all the result of some form of derestricting.

I have it on very good authority that Specialized and Shimano are writing counter measures in the software to find and prevent tampering. I would have to assume the rest of the motor and battery makers are taking similar steps.

Why do you think that is?

Probably to avoid being sued into oblivion if someone is injured or killed.


“Remember when there were Pedal assist mountain bikes?”

“What are mountain bikes?”

This conversation is only future speculation, but hey governments love to tell people what’s best for them without actually knowing.

Imagine paying taxes for legislation that eliminates the very thing we love to do

I am simply presenting my opinion that is based on facts and experiences I have observed in person.

I am not judging you or anyone else

 

[Blackbird]

I think it is very important in discussions like these to be truthfull. That is why i want to ask you this question. Are you saying a customer of you used a app, indonesian or otherwise and that app made his normal, 250 watt, before street legal, ebike go 60 MPH without going down a extrme slope?

 

[Al Boneta]

I think it is very important in discussions like these to be truthfull. That is why i want to ask you this question. Are you saying a customer of you used a app, indonesian or otherwise and that app made his normal, 250 watt, before street legal, ebike go 60 MPH without going down a extrme slope?

No I am not saying that. It wasn’t 250 watt Specialized bike. It was a 600 Khalkoff commuter bike

 

[Blackbird]

No I am not saying that. It wasn’t 250 watt Specialized bike. It was a 600 Khalkoff commuter bike

Well i have a buddy that used a Polini cylinder to make his moped go 55 mph but i did not think it would be relevant to mention here. Sounds like you posted that tidbit just to shock people since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we are discussing here.

 

[Kernow]

Neither was the bosch a 250w pedal assist bike Seems like we’re mixing up electric motorcycles with pedal assist ebikes here . Surely you could use these facts to your favour when explaining to the anti ebike brigade , after all you can get electric mx bikes that would give your ktm 450 a good run for its money .

 

[Doomanic]

I think some lucky Europeans are underestimating the pig headed attitude of the anti-eBike brigade in the US. Just have a read of the eMTB section on MTBR if you want a snapshot of what they are like.

 

[Blackbird]

I get that, and i also get the difficulty of gaining and keeping of trail acces. But what i am advocating for, on both sides of the discussion is being truthfull and not misleading. Nothing is gained by withholding info or giving “alternative facts”

 

[Al Boneta]

It has everything to with what we are talking about. The anti Emtb crew doesn’t know the difference between a an E Motorcycle and an E Mountain Bike. So ban them all is their answer. All I am saying is derestricting these bikes doesn’t help an already fragile land access situation.
I am sure it’s different in Europe where most people seem to be reasonable.
I have had to address warranty issues that were the direct result of derestricting.
One of my best friends derestricted all of his Ebikes, but we still ride together.
I am not telling anyone not to.
Just because you disagree doesn’t make it alternative facts or fake news.

 

[Paladin]

My bike came with a Bosch CX motor. It's 350 watts and restricted to 20mph. 20mph is ok but 30 would be nice. Hey, most of us here in the USA can't leave anything stock. Think I'm going to derestrict and try to avoid the ebike police. And yes it's true, I exceeded the speed limit in my truck......once.

 

[Blackbird]

This whole thread is about derestricting emtbs. It is fine if you want to give examples about other types of vehicles to illustrate a point but be up front about it. Be honest, when you read this:

I have sold over 200 Specialized Ebikes since May of 2016. I have seen dongles, magnets moved to the cranks and sensors moved to the chainstay. Even an Indonesian app that made one of my customers bike hit 60mph.

Can you honestly say that this does not give the impression that somebody used an app to make a Specialized emtb go 60 mph? That is why i said you put that in to shock people. Not because of your stance on deristricting.

 

[Al Boneta]

This whole thread is about derestricting emtbs. It is fine if you want to give examples about other types of vehicles to illustrate a point but be up front about it. Be honest, when you read this:




Can you honestly say that this does not give the impression that somebody used an app to make a Specialized emtb go 60 mph? That is why i said you put that in to shock people. Not because of your stance on deristricting.

I can see how that looks now, but it was not my intention. I was speaking about Ebikes in general.
You had no rebuttal for anything but the 60mph Khalkoff and the Haibike? So your only justification for derestricting is that I used two examples that you don’t believe?
Obviously this struck a nerve with you, my apologies.
At the end of the day, by derestricting Emtbs we only give more ammunition to the people who want all Emtbs off of the trails.

Sanctimonious mountain bikers call E mountain bikers cheaters.

But it’s like just riding an Emtb just isn’t enough for some riders. It seems like there’s now an undercurrent of cheaters among the so-called cheaters.

In Europe, there is a level of accountability that doesn’t exist in my country anymore. Riders who derestrict are probably going to be more responsible than riders over here.

 

[Blackbird]

I deristricted my bike long before you made those statements, so that is not my justification, i can assure you.
It bothers me when people overstate things to drive their point in a discussion, how well meaning they might be.
But that point has been cleared up so it is water under the bridge for me.

My personal justification for deristricting is a different question altogether though.

Firstly living in Europe, the Netherlands to be exact, my bike came with a 25 kmh/ 15.5 mph limiter. As you said yourself this takes away a lot of the joy of biking, it would be hard for me to keep up with friends riding faster.
Secondly while we have a catagory for 45 kmh/25 mph ebikes or s pedelecs those come with restrictions that would make biking a lot less accesable for me and more dangerous (needing to use car lanes instead of bike lanes).
Thirdly i consider myself responsible enough to decide when to ride what speed. I keep my speed down on bike lanes that are used by others.
Fourthly i can take a road bike and ride at whatever speed i want but when i use my ebike it is suddenly illegal, i feel that is unjust.
Fifthly the dealer that sold me my bike is the one that offered to fit a dongle, so i don't feel sorry for him.
Sixtly i don't feel my actions in the Netherlands have an effect on trail acces in other countrys. Over here the rules are simple, anywhere you can take a bike you can take an ebike (non s pedelec). Over here mopeds are very popular, you have two catagorys, 25 kmh and 45 kmh, 25 kmh can ride on bike lanes. A lot of people make them faster, if they are caught they get fined, bike lane acces has not been in danger for them.
And finaly it has made the bike so much more fun and usable for me, it does not turn it into a motorcycle, it does not make it go 40 mph on a flat section, it just made it more usable.

 

[Al Boneta]

I deristricted my bike long before you made those statements, so that is not my justification, i can assure you.
It bothers me when people overstate things to drive their point in a discussion, how well meaning they might be.
But that point has been cleared up so it is water under the bridge for me.

My personal justification for deristricting is a different question altogether though.

Firstly living in Europe, the Netherlands to be exact, my bike came with a 25 kmh/ 15.5 mph limiter. As you said yourself this takes away a lot of the joy of biking, it would be hard for me to keep up with friends riding faster.
Secondly while we have a catagory for 45 kmh/25 mph ebikes or s pedelecs those come with restrictions that would make biking a lot less accesable for me and more dangerous (needing to use car lanes instead of bike lanes).
Thirdly i consider myself responsible enough to decide when to ride what speed. I keep my speed down on bike lanes that are used by others.
Fourthly i can take a road bike and ride at whatever speed i want but when i use my ebike it is suddenly illegal, i feel that is unjust.
Fifthly the dealer that sold me my bike is the one that offered to fit a dongle, so i don't feel sorry for him.
Sixtly i don't feel my actions in the Netherlands have an effect on trail acces in other countrys. Over here the rules are simple, anywhere you can take a bike you can take an ebike (non s pedelec). Over here mopeds are very popular, you have two catagorys, 25 kmh and 45 kmh, 25 kmh can ride on bike lanes. A lot of people make them faster, if they are caught they get fined, bike lane acces has not been in danger for them.
And finaly it has made the bike so much more fun and usable for me, it does not turn it into a motorcycle, it does not make it go 40 mph on a flat section, it just made it more usable.

I agree with many of your points. I don’t understand how 15.5mph can be justified.

I wasn’t saying that derestricted bikes in Europe affect land access in America. But they definitely could have an impact before there is more widespread trail access for Emtbs in this country.

When I was a product manager at Specialized, I saw a great deal of resistance in the European markets to 29” wheels when they were relatively new.
Now a decade later it’s the US that’s resistant to Emtbs and Europe has become the early adopters.

Cheers Blackbird

 

[Blackbird]

It was Joseph Joubert that said “The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress” I think that fits here. Cheers to you Al, i’m heading off for the night.

 

[Al Boneta]

It was Joseph Joubert that said “The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress” I think that fits here. Cheers to you Al, i’m heading off for the night.

I tried out the BLEvo app so I would have a better frame of reference, meh

 

[Kaelidoz]

I do enjoy riding my bike without any assistance and taking it slow, but when I'm using the motor the instant cut-off feels so wrong.
That thing is 20kg+, it was never made with these regulations in mind. Can't even follow a shitty city bike without it.

It's nowhere near a motorcycle level. Roadies with dem legs are still faster than me on flat roads. It's just a mountain bike.

 

[Al Boneta]

I do enjoy riding my bike without any assistance and taking it slow, but when I'm using the motor the instant cut-off feels so wrong.
That thing is 20kg+, it was never made with these regulations in mind. Can't even follow a shitty city bike without it.

It's nowhere near a motorcycle level. Roadies with dem legs are still faster than me on flat roads. It's just a mountain bike.

Yeah my Levos and Kenevo are pretty worthless on the street.

 

[Doomanic]

I get to work quicker on my road bike than I do on my Trek. Sweatier, but quicker. Pulling out into a roundabout is dodgy when the assist cuts out but I didn’t buy the Trek to ride to work and I only did it because the car was off the road and it was easier to get to it than the road bike.
I’ve only ever felt the need for higher speed assist once off-road and never even got close to needing it when riding with non-assisted riders.

 

[Marke]

I ride my Trek on private most of the time during which it is destrestriced. Its like a different bike. Miles more fun IMHO, I have noticed wor events are promoting an ebike event with a 250w mod class in the UK. It would awesome to race it in derestricted form

 

[steviedsolve]

I deristricted my bike long before you made those statements, so that is not my justification, i can assure you.
My personal justification for deristricting is a different question altogether though.

Firstly living in Europe, the Netherlands to be exact, my bike came with a 25 kmh/ 15.5 mph limiter. As you said yourself this takes away a lot of the joy of biking, it would be hard for me to keep up with friends riding faster.
Secondly while we have a catagory for 45 kmh/25 mph ebikes or s pedelecs those come with restrictions that would make biking a lot less accesable for me and more dangerous (needing to use car lanes instead of bike lanes).
Thirdly i consider myself responsible enough to decide when to ride what speed. I keep my speed down on bike lanes that are used by others.
Fourthly i can take a road bike and ride at whatever speed i want but when i use my ebike it is suddenly illegal, i feel that is unjust.
Fifthly the dealer that sold me my bike is the one that offered to fit a dongle, so i don't feel sorry for him.
Sixtly i don't feel my actions in the Netherlands have an effect on trail acces in other countrys.

Nicely put Blackbird. All valid reasons and some are why I derestricted my bike.

One topic that I'd like to revive is the 'trail etiquette' discussion.
I was that ebike dick when I first got a Haibike in 2016 and then later derestricted it.

I was desperate to get the fastest Strava time on my local trail to the point I became obnoxious and unforgiving of slow riders.
It was like cranking up the tunes in a sporty car. I became an E-w@nk3r
I learned the error of my ways when I crashed and dislocated my shoulder requiring 3 screws.
That was a speed limiter for sure.

For years before ebikes I'd been a courteous trail sharer, giving way to horse riders and walkers with a friendly 'good morning',
only to be replaced by a demon adrenaline junkie shouting "ON YOUR LEFT! NO YOUR OTHER LEFT!"

So after 6 months of recovery and contemplation, I started back on the analogue bike and worked up to being back on the e-bike.
Meanwhile my mate who is 8 years older, has become super fit and leaves me for dust on the climbs.

I'm much more refined on the e-bike these days and developed a new etiquette which I think should be compulsory (or mandatory for our U.S. cousins)

1) I let my mate lead many of the climbs out of respect for his hard work and so not to be viewed as a cheating git.
He now thinks it's great that we ride more together but he can still go at his own pace.
2) I spend a lot of time in Eco+ especially on busy trail days, so most people wouldn't even know I was on an E-bike
(Eco+ is a great way to go a little bit quicker but still maintain fitness)
3) I still ride the analogue bike once a week to push fitness
4) When I catch someone in front, I don't sit on their back wheel and I'll make it clear there's no pressure to let me pass with phrases like
"When it's easy mate." or "No Rush"
5) When I catch fast XC lycra guys, I'll sit behind them applauding their pace and chat to them for a while. I've met some great chaps doing this and it even got me a go on a £10k 8kg XC bike whilst he rode my Ebike. Sharing the love!
6) I imagine myself in the position of someone I meet on the trail and that's most important to me now. As it used to be.
Family's, walkers, joggers, Horse riders. I've been all of those myself at some point and none of them care much for my Strava time.

I still let rip in Eco, Standard and the occasional EPW mode when the trails are quiet or really steep and the need is there.
Even in Eco+ mode I can still hit the 16 Mph limit and it really sucks on a fast flowy or technical climb or a very long fire road like the start of the Marin.
I fully agree that 20 Mph would be a better limit but I do hit 22 or 23Mph regularly on uphills and over 35Mph on downhills so I do think the restriction is a moot point and needs discussing. It's more about attitude and consideration to other people we meet & educating eMTB riders to be more responsible & friendly when the opportunity arises.

The one thing the E-bike wins hands down on, is getting into the wilds of Wales and going 60k for 4-5 hours as opposed to the 35k for 3-4 hours which is all I can muster on the analogue. De-restriction on those type of adventures is a must.

Don't be the e-Bike knobber! Ebikes are amazing for so many reasons but we need to work hard to become accepted.

 

[EddieJ]

I couldn't have put it any better.... eBike tuning



.

 

[Blackbird]

From the Bosch site:
“The technical manipulation of eBikes, such as increasing the shutdown speed to over 25 km/h, creates continuous loads that were not accounted for in the design and for which even the robust, high-performance components of Bosch eBike Systems are not designed. In this situation, it is mainly the brakes that are subject to increased loads. However, components such as the handlebars and fork are affected, as well as, last but not least, the frame and other parts. As a result, tuning compromises the safety of the pedelec as a whole, putting yourself as well as other road-users at risk”

I must say, i fully trust my handlebars and fork and frame, the brakes, while adequate will be upgraded in the future. I do think it is curious that Bosch says those parts will be most affected since the same parts are used on speed pedelecs, and the speeds are also obtainable going downhill.

 

[Marke]

I think 250w unrestricted is something of a sweet spot. Its just enough power to make things interesting.

I hope people start racing them in this format. I think itd be really fun.

 

[Kaelidoz]

@Marke They aren't just 250w tho, they're way more powerful. It's a "nominal" power designation.

@Blackbird I agree! The stuff that suffer the most due to tuning are the smallest cogs.
Curious about why do you feel like upgrading your brakes?

 

[Kernow]

From the Bosch site:
“The technical manipulation of eBikes, such as increasing the shutdown speed to over 25 km/h, creates continuous loads that were not accounted for in the design and for which even the robust, high-performance components of Bosch eBike Systems are not designed. In this situation, it is mainly the brakes that are subject to increased loads. However, components such as the handlebars and fork are affected, as well as, last but not least, the frame and other parts. As a result, tuning compromises the safety of the pedelec as a whole, putting yourself as well as other road-users at risk”

I must say, i fully trust my handlebars and fork and frame, the brakes, while adequate will be upgraded in the future. I do think it is curious that Bosch says those parts will be most affected since the same parts are used on speed pedelecs, and the speeds are also obtainable going downhill.

I guess Bosch have to cover all bikes that may use thier motors , and some probably dont have good enough components to cope with more speed , I would take it they aren’t referring to the higher spec emtb that most people here own .
Just how that information is justified in USA etc where the limit is more sensible I don’t know . Are Bosch saying than in USA thier motors are overstressed , so really it’s just Bosch tosh ?

 

[Alan wolfe]

On my Bosch the switch from assisted to non-assisted is more marked in the higher assist modes. I can happily tank along at 20+ mph and the extra weight of the bike probably helps keep the momentum up. At slow speed when the battery dies is another thing altogether though; like riding through treacle until you have the cranks spinning at a decent speed.

WRT derestriction, I am opposed to it in general. My primary concern is what it could do to access rights. Looking at some of the proponents on Pedelecs it seems to be the more hooligan element that do it to eMTBs.

My ktm does 17mph before motor stops assistance all u done was went into set on intuvia select bigger wheel circumference done this by mistake lol

 

[BeBiker]

Mine was restricted by big EU government to 25km/h (15.5mph)
Which is as ridiculous as they are.
Due to the heavy weight you can't even follow a 8Y old kid with that.

I would have never payed 170 euro if the restriction was 32km/h (20mph)
Of course more=better, but i wouldn't have done it.

 

[Cbmojo]

I agree with @steviedsolve for the most part but a de-restricted bike doesn't automatically equate to going any faster on the trail/hill/track. Downhill is downhill and I have analogue bikes blow by me all the time...the truth is the de-restriction has no impact on how fast I personally go on the trail. I may average 15ish mph going up but like I said downhill is downhill and gravity is taking care of that. I just prefer that my motor doesn't cut off when I commuting to the trail (or ever for that matter) and that's the primary reason for me to de-restrict (25mph is more than enough). With all that said I just think etiquette with emtb's in general is important to deter the misconceptions. I prefer to ride when its empty or bring as little attention to myself as possible but when there is traffic I always politely defer. I ride advanced but I am 50 and don't roll like I use to...lol. The emtb has basically just leveled the ride for me...nothing more nothing less.