Funny that, I remember you just about tried every make of suspension out there, especially the bit where you tried a hybrid of an ext shock, if I remember rightly it was on a rail. Perhaps you should have saved all the money you spent and just had a good tune tooI was going to type out a long reply, but at this point, i'm out, that's all I need to know.
I genuinely don't care if people do want to drop a few grand on suspension bits if it's their thing, but claiming 'game changing' levels of performance is quite simply, ridiculous. If I believed half of that, by swapping my suspension, i'll be giving Richie Rude a run for his money in the next few rounds of the EWS.
Levo Gen 3 Suspension and Coil shocks for Gen 3 - Fox 38 vs Zeb
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
Nice explanation, obviously you’re happy with your purchas, but I don’t know if that’s enough to call one product superior to another.
It’s all down to a dialed setup - the rest is rider’s skills and personal preference. Some setup their suspension for comfort, other for high speed and big hit performance. Top of the line products from all major brands will do the job hands down. Now the perception of how the suspension feels is super subjective. Some love what others hate. That’s it.
There are some scientific suspension comparisons here and there and I have never seen any that would show night and day differences in top spec forks performance or rank boutique brand product as the best.
It’s all down to a dialed setup - the rest is rider’s skills and personal preference. Some setup their suspension for comfort, other for high speed and big hit performance. Top of the line products from all major brands will do the job hands down. Now the perception of how the suspension feels is super subjective. Some love what others hate. That’s it.
There are some scientific suspension comparisons here and there and I have never seen any that would show night and day differences in top spec forks performance or rank boutique brand product as the best.
Firstly, for the sake of clarity, I tried 3 different brands. Fox, Push & EXT. The latter 2 because the Rail is not an overly progressive suspension design, which with a coil shock is fine if you are a trail centre warrior, but if you can push on a bit, it rapidly starts to give it’s travel up too easily. Not ideal on a coil shock which is obviously linear by nature, but Push & EXT‘S HBO did combat that to a degree, yet still not ideal (for me).
And yes, I’m fortunate enough to be able to do that sort of thing, which is why I did. I was pretty open about my findings & there is a reason why my bike ended up with a stock ’21 Float X2 on it. As for saving money, well the whole thing was a cost neutral exercise, not that it really has any relevance...
I’ve got no axe to grind with any brand, or any purchase to justify. Just tried a few different platforms with differing results.
Iv tried them all, owned, Still own most, ext is the best, yes the adjustment is limited, but that’s also part of what your paying for, back to mojo and they will tune to your preferences, bike specific. I can’t imagine rocking up to a fox dealer asking them to revalve for free because it isn’t jumping, tracking just how you like it. Also the x2’s don’t last 5 minutes when worked hard
Clearly you aren’t reading what I wrote - as I specifically mentioned the difference in feel to other brands of suspension.
For the sake of clarity, that difference in feel doesn’t enable me to go faster, cut inside corners like Sam Hill, hold high lines or cope with the cobbles and extreme terrain that Cannock Chase has to offer, over an equivalent, well set up Fox product.
Again, I’m truly happy that you like your suspension, but I don’t see how it proves it’s superiority (objectivity).
As an engineer I can appreciate good craftsmanship, but if you have top tier forks and shocks from any brand - you will be able to setup your suspension right.
And BTW - I like Grip2 in my Fox38. ?
As an engineer I can appreciate good craftsmanship, but if you have top tier forks and shocks from any brand - you will be able to setup your suspension right.
And BTW - I like Grip2 in my Fox38. ?
ive gone through similar dilemma's with my levo SL. I initially went out of my way spending money to make it even lighter. But then started upgrading suspension and tyres and put all the weight back on?.
I added DHR exo tyres, OneUp carbon bars, mt7 brakes, Crank Brothers Stamp 1 composite pedals, and I even had a set of carbon wheels made from Light Bicycle in China. Got the bike down to a out 17.3kg (size large) Which was over 1kg in lost weight. I then added RS Lyrik ultimate 160mm forks, and have now added a Fox X2 shock and Double Down DHR tyres, and have now gone back to the factory weight!
I know this ain't what you want to hear, but ride the bike half a dozen times before swapping out. Try to just dial in what you have. Then see what needs replacing first. For me it was the Fox 34 performance forks, they were adequate but not premium, and I felt they did not enhance the rest of the feel of the bike.
A coil is fun to ride for sure, but there will always be a weight penalty, but I reckon it's worth it. If you want to try a coil and save weight you can get a Cane Creek Db iL and put a fox SL spring on it.
The fox grip 2 fork is excellent. Just be patient setting it up and trying out different settings. It will take a while to get feeling good. But after a month of twiddling the knobs it will be an awesome fork.
I did. I used to own Ohlins, BOS, Pushed Foxes, OOTB Fox, RS, Marzocchi. All had their strong and weak points, but with the right setup they all work nice (note - top tier dampers, entry level crap is crap no matter what logo you‘d put on it).
Re‘ prices - agreed, it’s madnesses.
carlbiker
🛡️🚵🛡️
its sound advice and your almost like a crystal ball for me! There’s a lot to learn and work out and with my bike ready in the shop I’m frantically trying to understand suspension over night to make the right decision. Tyres....phffff I’ll check again but actual weight of my bad boys are kicking out 2.7kg between them, reported weight was 2.3kg....I can’t have both coil and tyres over 1.2kg really, the bike weight off ground needs to be kept somehow.
I didn’t realise the Fox 36 is around 1k sold new, possibly more....so within £400 possibly, same situation with the shock also. £800 for a switch seems really appealing to me, I was going to consider upgrading to a smashpot which invalidates the warranty but noones been able to comment on how the coil upgrade compares to the ERA.
If I ride it then its going to be another £400 difference or more. It’s night and day coils are better than air from everything I’ve read for certain types, had I not witnessed first hand how much better riding was with better suspension I’d not be looking so hard.
My impulse is to drive to Wales next week, visit Mojo and get them to stick their gear on and get some riding in! @Dirtnvert has posted some amazing experiences, sounds as though it’s all built over many years but he has both his air/coils and swaps his wheels out for mullet days or 29ers....from my understanding mullet is better for cornering/Dh/trail days, 29 better for XC. It’s important to pick the shock size too as the 210x55 restricts things somewhat, I’m not sure on what benefits there are in sticking with this size.
Any which way, it’s all win/win so long as I get out on the bike which I’m striving to do. I feel blessed to have this bike coming, I’m going through abit of a rough patch atm so getting out properly again will do me the world of good ?
honestly, reading some of this thread im starting to feel really sorry for all those EWS riders on those crappy Fox 38's and Zebs... poor bastards
And Tom Pidcock had to make do with 100mm travel Suntour forks
I wouldnt know.. do you know the differences?
They were factory 250 units with multidimensional black hole variable density coiled air springs (Factory Force Field with Shield coating - coiling air is not easy in our time line)
LOL. that bad, eh?....I've been running them for years and haven't even the closest experience, even on a bad day. Fox 38's are bit more challenging to setup, but in either case, they work just fine. You might have had someone use the wrong oil volume, shaft lubed improperly, etc. And we all all know a properly lubed shaft is key.
All these air forks aren't that complicated to begin with.
It sounds like you're more worried about selling the fox suspension NEW and not used so not to lose any money on them. But maybe a couple of hundred loss could be worth it by spending some time with the supplied fox suspension and getting an experience with it before you sell them on. I find it fun tinkering with suspension parts. I feel I've learned a lot by trying out different sus components that come with bikes. I'm currently using no air volume tokens in either my shock or fork and am just pumping up with air and then opening up all compression settings and then dialling in from there.
my advice with both fox components is to...
open up low And high compression settings,
then set sag,
follow what fox suggests for your rebound and then further open up both rebounds by 2 more clicks (Anti-clockwise)
Go for a ride and dial in a small amount of Low speed compression if you feel the fork and shock are too soft and squidgy on small bumps.
Keep high speed compression completely open on both until,the day you feel a bottom out and then dial them in by a couple of clicks.
But that's not as satisfying as buying more bits to solve the "problem"
But that's not as satisfying as buying more bits to solve the "problem"
Dude. Just chill and ride the damned bike. You've bought the M-Team because it has decent spec. You can't comparing coil as an icelandic formula buggy to air as a 1980's yugo. There are positives and negatives to them both. I admit I was a bit wary of what the Fox 36 would be like when I bought the Focus but it's fantastic. It's silky smooth on the small stuff and ridiculously confidence inspiring on the rough stuff. At the same time it offers great support and the grip is outstanding.
It's not the bits .. it's the spreadsheets for the bits ....But that's not as satisfying as buying more bits to solve the "problem"
Sorry @carlbiker we haven't had a spreadsheet comment for ages ! But that's not as satisfying as buying more bits to solve the "problem"
Hey, I resemble that comment.
Are we still talking air forks or splitting atoms?
so you dont know the differences
we all know they are custom setup for individual racers but if thats something you could do with a off the shelf unit if you have the skill then it means that its still the same fork.. custom or not.
There's also no comparison between pro-racers who use custom forks and the muppets on this forum who think they're MTB experts.
I knew a girl like that once.
ebikerider
Active member
Most do ride standard units.
Too many posts to quote to go over what you have said. You are obviously very happy with your new forks and shock, that's awesome.
The Storia is a single tube damper that needs to have the base tune almost perfect as the range of adjustment is so very small so the chance of it feeling sub-optimal is high. Yes, even a tune that is quite far out will feel better than the OEM DPX2/X2 and will feel even better again if the person with the air pump doesn't know which direction to turn dials as generally a coil will straight up feel better/very different. People generally don't now how to set suspension up IME so when their new suspension does something closer to what they like (something they could have achieved with altered settings on their old set up if they actually knew what was happening and how to turn the appropriate dial) they automatically assume the new stuff is better.
The ERA feels very different to most forks out of the box. Yes the quality control of the ERA is higher which means the fork out of the box will generally feel different and can be better than the Fox/Rockshox/Ohlins/DVO/Manitou. But....spend some time setting up these forks, getting the bushings burnished, removing grease from negative chambers, correct amount of bath oil etc (just like a small manufacturer like EXT did for the ERA before it left Italy) and then you have a closer fight.
The Mezzer has a triple chamber air side just like the ERA but the Mezzer has HBO. That's and advantage imo. The Smashpot which can be fitted to most of these forks too...there's the stout mid range, suppleness to die for plus you gain HBO. The new DVO Onyx feels very similar to the ERA with a stout mid stroke and very supple start to the stroke using OTT so there are plenty of options out there for less $$ than the ERA.
EXT also keep the servicing very close to their chest, preferring that the forks are returned to the seller for servicing. I don't even think anyone has a copy of the servicing requirements publicly do they? I personally prefer a brand to be more open with that sort of thing as I like to service everything myself so it's done correctly...not an option with the ERA. There isn't anything advanced in the fork imo (my question to you that you didn't answer), it's just put together with more care than the mass built forks. It uses tech that has been out for some time too....small positive spring to reduce initial breakaway which helps overcome the positive chambers seal friction allowing a smooth transition and a third air chamber to help with ramp up.
Lots of great options out there (some listed above and yes I have used them). There have been more publicised issues with the bigger brands but the ERA has not been immune to bushing and lubrication problems with several forks returned to Italy with problems in use.
Hopefully their method of getting rid of the steerer creak works and hopefully a fork leg doesn't start creaking first lol
Yesterday’s prototype is today’s daily ride.. at some point in the past our current retail forks were prototypes.
I’m a little unsure of what you’re trying to prove here?
So we shouldn’t feel sorry for ews riders that have to tolerate this fox and Rockshoxs crap?
carlbiker
🛡️🚵🛡️
the bling………the bling………
Its only the very top racers who get any sort of real factory support and custom tunes - even in EWS and WC DH most of the riders are on stock products, but with the benefit of factory technicians in the pits to help set them up.
One pro rider once told me it always made him laugh seeeing the amount of riders on mega bling components out in the Surrey hills who where on bikes far more tricked out than what he and his mates rode - in his opinion having a good fitting bike, any decent suspension set up correctly, and the right tyres where all that mattered.
Most of them are far more particular over tyre choice and pressures than what suspension they are on, and would view this as more critical
I don’t think there’s enough between any of the top forks/shocks to give any quantifiable performance benefit over the other - however I would say there’s a placebo effect of having a set up you love.
What suspension is best is very subjective, because an average rider is going to realistically settle on a set up that actually makes the bike feel as safe as possible to ride hard and comfortable , whereas a top racer is going to go for a set up that largely ignores comfort and focus instead on maximising ability to-lay down fast times and works well when pushed to its maximum.
For me personally the ability to for me to easily set up the product for my riding is key.
One pro rider once told me it always made him laugh seeeing the amount of riders on mega bling components out in the Surrey hills who where on bikes far more tricked out than what he and his mates rode - in his opinion having a good fitting bike, any decent suspension set up correctly, and the right tyres where all that mattered.
Most of them are far more particular over tyre choice and pressures than what suspension they are on, and would view this as more critical
I don’t think there’s enough between any of the top forks/shocks to give any quantifiable performance benefit over the other - however I would say there’s a placebo effect of having a set up you love.
What suspension is best is very subjective, because an average rider is going to realistically settle on a set up that actually makes the bike feel as safe as possible to ride hard and comfortable , whereas a top racer is going to go for a set up that largely ignores comfort and focus instead on maximising ability to-lay down fast times and works well when pushed to its maximum.
For me personally the ability to for me to easily set up the product for my riding is key.
This is exactly what you’ll get from Push or Mojo. But we should take it all with a grain of salt. Let‘s say damping (compression or rebound - doesn’t matter) is on tha scale from 1-100 (%-like). Now OOTB tunes will give you a range of eg. 15-45 for light tune, 30-60 for M and 40-70 for firm. You have 10 clicks at your disposal, so you’ll be able to adjust damping every 3 units. Finally, just to set a baseline for your riding style, weight and frame leverage ratio the sweet spot is 41. That’s our baseline.
Now 41 is within tuning range for all hypothetical tunes from above, L tune will be almost fully closed, M will be in the middle, F should stay pretty much open. Still non of those will give you exactly 41 (clicks go every 3 units).
What custom shim stack does it will give you adjustment range 35-45. You’ll still keep 10 click, but the actual change will be far more granular. That’s it - no magic here.
Add to that some low friction seals replaced ever race weekend, fresh oil with viscosity right for the temperature and BUM - you have your pro service DIY.
The rest is up to a racer and his skills. Great camera won’t make you a world class photographer.
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Correct. To add to that - companies don’t necessarily pick the best racers for their test programs, they need very good racers who can communicate their findings and give proper feedback and suggestions. It doesn’t have to be top 10 WC person.
True, true. 90% of high end forks and shocks on the trail are under sprung and under damped. That’s how users try to archive small bump compliance.
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