How long will your EMTB last you?

[Pukmeister]

Fivetones is correct, no motor company deliberately sets out to design a motor unfit for purpose. As more are made, failure rates and modes will be analysed and future motors will become more resilient and probably more powerful for a smaller footprint.

What wont happen: motors will not be expensively over-engineered to make them 99.9% reliable as this would drive up unit costs prohibitively and increase motor size and weight, resulting in poor sales.

Face facts, ebike motors are a compromise between price, performance, size, weight and ease of manufacture. For what they are, they do a bloody good job already.

They just need to be cheaper to replace/repair for the end user.... and that time is coming.

 

[Gary]

Fivetones is correct, no motor company deliberately sets out to design a motor unfit for purpose.

And no one said they did!

motors will not be expensively over-engineered to make them 99.9% reliable as this would drive up unit costs prohibitively and increase motor size and weight, resulting in poor sales.

No one said this either.
FFS. try actually reading what I said.

For what they are, they do a bloody good job already.

No. No they don't.

My findings over the last 18months (6 motors and counting) is that both Shimano Emtb motors are 100% unreliable.
A friend (living in the alps) who was riding Levos in a very similar manner to me found exactly the same 100% failure rate with it's motors.

I'm not talking 1000s of miles or years of use.
I'm talking a few hundred miles and a matter of weeks use.

 

[Gary]

They just need to be cheaper to replace/repair for the end user.... and that time is coming.

I agree fully with your sentiment
But...
In the case of Shimano. That time absolutely ISN'T coming any time soon.

 

[Peaky Rider]

I agree fully with your sentiment
But...
In the case of Shimano. That time absolutely ISN'T coming any time soon.

My God Gary, what a load of sense you talk.

Both me and my mate are motor less at the moment. His Yamaha and my Shimano are both awaiting repair/replacement, both are no more than ten months old and we both, at nearly 70 years old, ride like pussycats.

Stuff the early adopter rubbish and no doubt, when warranties run out, the manufacturers will quickly make up for early payouts.

 

[Gary]

Yamaha

OMG!!
Shhhhhhhhhhhh...
Please no one tell @33red about this ONE OFF failure of a mighty YAMAHA motor!

 

[DrStupid]

OMG!!
Shhhhhhhhhhhh...
Please no one tell @33red about this ONE OFF failure of a mighty YAMAHA motor!

Is this a problem with Yamaha's... or Giants version with the proprietary RideControl One?

 

[Gary]

Is this a problem with Yamaha's... or Giants version with the proprietary RideControl One?

I think it's probably just a problem with one man's naivety

 

[Jamsxr]

I’ve now done over 1,000 miles on my E8000, including 4 full day bike park sessions - casing/slamming 30ft tables and a few wet rides. I’ve also snapped a pedal clean off landing/casing a jump - my ambition clearly outweighs my talent..

So far so good, but based on the current forum feedback it won’t be long.

My theory is that water ingress is causing most of these problems. Most of my riding has been done in the dry, I’m sure after a few weeks of wet riding it will start to creak.

 

[Gary]

My theory is that water ingress is causing most of these problems

In all of my cases your theory is 100% wrong

 

[Gary]

Casing a 30ft table is just the same as a flat landing and probably isn't actually as stressful on BB axle bearings as you may think.
Axial side loading is way more so.

How did your pedal snap off?
pedal axle failure or crank thread failure?
and was it from the pedal bottoming on the ground or simply your weight on landing.

 

[Jamsxr]

Casing a 30ft table is just the same as a flat landing and probably isn't actually as stressful on BB axle bearings as you may think.
Axial side loading is way more so.

How did your pedal snap off?
pedal axle failure or crank thread failure?
and was it from the pedal bottoming on the ground or simply your weight on landing.

Weight landing on the pedal after a jump, sheered straight off and it’s now a tree ornament. I also bent my seat bars..

So you don’t think it has anything to do with water ingress, I always find winter riding exacerbates component wear - especially the BB.

 

[Pukmeister]

I'm glad I don't own a Shimano Gary, thanks for sharing your experiences.

Have you calmed down yet, you sound a little stressed out?

My observations are based as a production engineer and not a long term emtb rider with a string of successive motor failures, so our views differ.

 

[Gary]

So you don’t think it has anything to do with water ingress

No. you're correct, water ingress will increase wear/damage to all moving parts

But...

I've sealed all my motors really well.
and I've been through so many I even didn't wet wash one of them at all around the BB axle area it's entire life. (simply dry wiping dirt/mud from the area) as an experiment to see if it would increase lifespan.
Bearings failed resulting in exactly the same axle play/creaking as all the rest in roughly the same amount of riding.

Weight landing on the pedal after a jump, sheered straight off and it’s now a tree ornament. I also bent my seat bars..

Sounds like your pedal may have had a weak axle TBH.
The E8000 cranks are hardly the strongest cranks out there.
what pedals were they?

 

[Gary]

I'm glad I don't own a Shimano Gary, thanks for sharing your experiences.

No worries.

Have you calmed down yet

Perfectly calm bud. I pretty much always am.

you sound a little stressed out?

Was that you listening outside the toilet door earlier?

My observations are based as a production engineer and not a long term emtb rider with a string of successive motor failures, so our views differ.

So ZERO actual real life observation of the motor or bearings and zero actual experience of the issues I've discussed at all ?
Cool. Always good to have a completely impartial opinion on board.

 

[33red]

The bike washing is something i never do.
Last 20 years without a car i just pedal daily. In Quebec with minus 20 and worst, riders who wash have more problems. Just wiping the excess. Obviously i do chain maintenance. The way i see it they just have to sell replacement motors twice the price to cover for the **** free ones ****. But that leaves users stuck in the woods, waiting days, weeks, months,,, without using bikes that are cell phones on 2 wheels. Built for short term. Of course many will collect dust but people who use them should buy the ones with a good record, not listen to the koolaid, BS, fake reviews.

 

[Doomanic]

Bigger, stronger (main axle) bearings wouldn't really be much more expensive when bought in the quantities a company like Shimano can, wouldn't weigh huge amounts more and wouldn't particularly cause much more drag.

I agree, but it isn't as simple as bigger bearings. Bigger bearings could adversely effect the packaging of the unit, compromising the integration with the frame and possibly the geometry of the whole bike. The size of the bearing isn't the only, or even main, issue, it's the environmental protection that's at fault. The problem is, better seals mean more drag if they are to be effective. This will have negative impacts on range and heat retention.

 

[Zimmerframe]

minus 20 and worst

I've just washed the other half's .. does anyone know how to use the bluetooth connection to enable the auto defrost and motor and battery pre-heat on a Yamaha ?

The seat warmer setting would get me back in the good books also ..

 

[Pukmeister]

Zero observations ?

I've spent 35 years in engineering so far stripping things apart and inspecting them, machining components and making repairs (after serving a five year apprenticeship and many years as a journeyman). I also studied production engineering and mechanical manufacture for my HND, now working as a commissioning engineer for a large defence corporation. The many thousands of hours spent doing all this gives me a fair understanding of materials, stresses, manufacturing processes and failure mode analysis including metallurgy.

You have broken Shimano motors on a bicycle. Maybe you should write them a letter offering your services as a product tester ? You think you can do better than they can ??

My motor works just fine thanks, I don't intend to take it apart to see if it can be improved upon. If it fails under warranty my LBS can sort it. If it fails outside warranty I will rebuild it myself.

Being a noob to emtb doesn't make my opinions any less valid than anyone else's.

 

[Zimmerframe]

You have broken Shimano motors on a bicycle. Maybe you should write them a letter offering your services as a product tester ? You think you can do better than they can ??

Don't take offence to the comments, you need to read them from another perspective.

I think we have to realise that @Gary and others will put more strain on components than others. He's effectively a gorilla with the poise and grace of a ballerina. I've thrown my E8000 around in ways I never thought a bike would survive, but it has. (not skilled riding, the opposite, thrown around hills, rocks, trees) . Maybe shorter cranks help and place less side loading on bearings.... I think if Gary had 80mm cranks, he'd have far less problems.....

 

[Gary]

I agree, but it isn't as simple as bigger bearings. Bigger bearings could adversely effect the packaging of the unit, compromising the integration with the frame and possibly the geometry of the whole bike. The size of the bearing isn't the only, or even main, issue, it's the environmental protection that's at fault. The problem is, better seals mean more drag if they are to be effective. This will have negative impacts on range and heat retention.

Almost all of my issues actually could be solved fairly simply with more durable bearings Dom.
I'm not talking about TRUCK AXLE bearings here. Simply bearings that will actually endure more than 500miles of proper riding. (obviuosly housing and axle design would need to be altered to accomodate but not enough that it'd need such a bigger casing to affect bike geometry/suspension design)

it's the environmental protection that's at fault.

Goan read what I said in post #283 again please?

 

[Pukmeister]

Sorry Zimmer, I don't care how gnarly a rider he is, he's coming across as a patronising bully and I don't give a shit. I completely understand his perspective but it sounds like an attempt by Gary to humiliate or ridicule me publically.

I think his skill set on an ebike pushes them to (and beyond) their limits. He needs a super expensive heavily engineered product to withstand the punishment he can deal out, rather than a run of the mill retail product. Thats my point.

 

[Fivetones]

From what you say I think the theory it’s lateral forces seems the most plausible for hard riders. Other failures of this type could be down to pedal strikes (in those that don’t have technique to avoid, of course). I guess if the motor is evolved from an urban motor then you can see that the design might need looking at.

So, aren’t the bearings needle bearings? Wouldn’t a different bearing type work better? Engineers, what do you think?

 

[Gary]

Zero observations ?

I've spent 35 years in engineering so far stripping things apart and inspecting them, machining components and making repairs (after serving a five year apprenticeship and many years as a journeyman). I also studied production engineering and mechanical manufacture for my HND, now working as a commissioning engineer for a large defence corporation. The many thousands of hours spent doing all this gives me a fair understanding of materials, stresses, manufacturing processes and failure mode analysis including metallurgy.

Yes ZERO
No need to list your CV/reseme. It's irrelevant.
I'm not bullying you here. i'm simply pointing out your lack of knowledge/experience of this particular issue.
I've spent way way longer than 35 years riding, destroying BB bearings and replacing them.
you know? actual hands on.
no diploma required. just a lot of riding and wrenching time.
How I ride is not BEYOND the purpose the bikes are designed for. Not even slightly.

humiliating or ridiculing you in public is of no interest to me in the slightest. It's simply a discussion about the failings/flaws in current motor design. Why on earth are you taking it personally

Being a noob to emtb doesn't make my opinions any less valid than anyone else's.

Sorry. But being 100% honest here. At times it absolutely does

 

[Gary]

@Fivetones and @Doomanic and @Pukmeister
Take a look at any shimano motor axle
you will find that the crank axle is designed to be (slightly) latterally free moving (it's sprung).
Now think about what happens to its bearings each time that axle is forceably moved sideways under load. and think about how often this happens when cornering, sideways landings, changes of direction etc.
Now do you agree the heavier or more dynamic the rider the higher those latteral forces will be. Yes? (and less the bearing life?)
now if you were to design an axle like this would you try to make sure the bearings were going to be durable enough to be long lasting?
Or at the very least make sure those bearings were easily replaceable?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Other failures of this type could be down to pedal strikes (in those that don’t have technique to avoid, of course).

I'm a newby (and impressively crap) and with a super low BB my e8000 had hundreds of pedal strikes.. but no issues : so I think there's more to it ? Extreme torsional stresses ?

 

[Gary]

I forget what bike you have Zimz but no Emtbs I've ever encountered even have genuinely super low BBs
My ESommet is possibly one of the lowest available and I never get pedal strikes on it with standard length cranks.
BB/pedal/ground clearance quite a bit higher than my standard Enduro and DH bikes

 

[Zimmerframe]

forget what bike you have Zim

It's just gone, but was a "karma" (don't buy one they're crap) floor to pedal with 150 cranks - 13cm

Just got a kenevo. That's 17cm. Standard cranks.

No sag included in measurements, but no pedal strikes and pedal ploughing is my thing ?

 

[Pukmeister]

If the bearings are sprung it suggests they run a high axial clearance with the spring to preload them in one direction. Why they need such a clearance could be for several reasons, such as expansion when hot or to allow sufficient endfloat to allow ease of construction and assembly with large tolerances.

It sounds like side thrust is an issue at the crank which causes brinelling of the bearing surface through high load impacts. A solution would be to fit an angular contact bearing with suitably large enough surface area to absorb thrust and endure impacts. This is difficult to achieve with small bearings and high sudden point loads, such as a 15 stone man landing a jump with long crank arms on his bike.

Motor side casings would also need to be beefed up to absorb these high loads and dissipate them into the cycle frame. Suddenly that 2.9kg motor becomes 4.9kg and nobody wants to buy it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

My ESommet is possibly one of the lowest available and I never get pedal strikes on it

You don't come over as a random pedal striker ! Not unless it was on purpose for some granite sparks...

Not worked out how to measure BB. It seems quite variable depending on tyres, pressure, default sag for different riders.

 

[Gary]

2kg?