How long will your EMTB last you?

[Gary]

Motors're just shit Zimz... don't lose any sleep over why

 

[Zimmerframe]

Never.

TBF I broke far far more parts 20 years back when I was a svelte 12st, rode 200 miles a week and regularly raced DH.

But then everything was solid and moved as one .. now lots of body parts kind of do their own thing and cause secondary shock waves ..

 

[Zimmerframe]

Motors're just shit Zimz... don't lose any sleep over why

You could have told me that last night !

 

[steve_sordy]

Using titanium as an axle stiffener is a bad idea. Yes it's lighter than steel and yes it has a tensile strength about twice as high as steel. But if it is resistance to bending that you are after, ie stiffness, then it is good old steel that you need. the key material property to resist bending is the Young's Modulus, and for that steel is approx twice as high as for titanium. (My youth was not mis-spent afterall!)

 

[Fivetones]

For those following the E8000 topic these threads are pertinent:

2019 SHIMANO STEPS - E7000 MOTOR DRIVE UNIT - For Spares & Repairs: £300 posted - EMTB Forums

E8000 "bottom bracket" bearing play after 1400km - EMTB Forums

 

[Swissrider]

Bikes can go on for ever. I still have my 30 year old Marin MTB, just replacing parts that wore out. It still works as a city bike, not too attractive to bike thieves! My wife and I have four ebikes between us and I’ve clocked up about 4000k over the couple of years on mine. So, mileage is one issue with ebikes, for most people the wear and tear is going to be greater simply because we go much further on them. Also their weight and power puts great wear on all the components. However, chains, tyres, bearings etc are all relatively cheap, but motors and batteries are worryingly expensive and only guaranteed for a couple of years at best. It seems ironic that many, including myself, worry about our EMTB motors since electric motors have fewer moving parts than any other motor and electric motors in many other applications last for years and years. Companies like Brose build electric motors for things like power steering in cars which last the life of a car so there is no reason why an ebike motor should not last ten years at least. I feel that in the rush to get class leading motors to the market, corners have been cut, which is why failure rate seems to be quite high, although forums can be misleading as we don’t know the true failure rate. So far, manufacturers seem to be good at replacing motors and batteries when they fail. Hopefully, they will concentrate on longevity as well as performance in the future. Once we have a better idea which motors and batteries last this will become a more important factor in purchasing decisions. As well as good longe, I hope manufacturers will offer affordable repairs or goodwill gestures if these components fail out of guarantee. Otherwise EMTB img is going to become a very expensive hobby!

 

[andytiedye]

So what's this magical number with cars?

I guess my 21 year old ute must be getting close, although reflecting on those 310000 km some were much harder than others

I got about that out of my Civic Del Sol before a tree fell on it in a bad storm and totaled it.

 

[steve_sordy]

Bikes can go on for ever. I still have my 30 year old Marin MTB, just replacing parts that wore out.........................

My grandma has a broom like that.
She bought it in 1910 and it's only had 21 heads and 6 handles!
Same nail though!

 

[andytiedye]

It is really discouraging to see how short-lived these bikes turn out to be for many of you.
I hope mine lasts longer than that.
My pedal bikes sure have, the FS is 5 years old, the previous one lasted 9 years before the pivot broke (might be repairable, but no shop would touch it). My hardtail is 22 years old and still doing fine.

My skills are pretty much nonexistent (not for lack of trying), so I don't do jumps, don't do drops over a foot, haven't got the strength to throw even a pedal bike around, let alone an ebike, and I only weigh about 68kg, so maybe I'm not as hard on bikes as most of you.

 

[steve_sordy]

............ I only weigh about 68kg, so maybe I'm not as hard on bikes as most of you.

Everything lasts longer if you lose weight!

 

[Rusty]

It is really discouraging to see how short-lived these bikes turn out to be for many of you.
I hope mine lasts longer than that.

Have friends with ebikes that are around the 5 year old range and have big distances with only 1 issue I know of and that was a bad battery unit that never charged full from new and was replaced after a month under warranty. The guy that checked it reckons probably 4-5 bad cells based on his metered readings.

 

[Rusty]

Ummm - trying to sell both my 2019 bikes.

Have just fell in luv with the Patrol E-Six.

 

[Stefan-SS]

I think the main issue is the backup, not so much the motors themselves. In my opinion the motors we have at the moment are pretty much where you want to be in terms of output, and the main advances are in the software, which is after all what determines how the bike feels to pedal, and how it reacts to the riders inputs. The software is also what makes sure the motor doesn't eat itself.

As @steve_sordy says the failure rate of some of the motors, in terms of timelines, is on a par with a lot of normal bike components, the main difference is that in the majority of cases, mainly due to lack of experience in some LBS's, and also what manufacturers are recommending, most problems, even small, are solved by a motor or battery swap, and currently this takes time as the motors have to be sent back to the supplier, certified for warranty, and a new one sent out.

Now there are some dealers for Specilized, such as Berkshire Cycles, who hold stock of spare motors, and make this process a whole lot less painful, and on the Bosch side of things they hade service centres at certain dealers where they can repair various problems on site.

I love my Vitus, and the issue with the motor is frustrating due to the timescales involved, just to fix the torque sensor.

The one thing I would say from nearly 2 years of EMTB ownership, riding hard in all conditions, all year round, pretty much every other day, is you need to stay on top of maintenance, and that I will defiteyl buy my next EMTB from a dealer, and a dealer that has the necessary experience so that they can put the bike together properly in the first place, and the back up to sort issues quickly.

Hi!
I wanted to get the Canyon spectral ON when it was released and would have if it was sold by a good dealer. I ended up in the same shop where I bought my first e-mtb ht and bought my second Haibike there. They have a fantastic service and a low rate if I leave my bike there for service outside the warranty. When a pedal-arm was faulty and they didn´t have any in stock, they simply pulled one from their displaybikes and had me ready for more biking in minutes. Great! That is why I will never buy a "directsale" bike.

 

[Coletti]

A question to those that have had a motor fail. Was it repaired or simply replaced with a new unit. Reason for my question is this...If in fact they simply replace the motor with a new unit then by rights, that new motor should have a factory 2 year warranty, regardless of how close you are to the end of the original warranty. Am I right in thinking this?

 

[Coletti]

Just another point regarding warranty. Under uk law you could potentially have a 6 year warranty provided you can prove that the item isn't fit for purpose by providing evidence that many others have suffered from the same fault. Only real problem with this one is that the vendor, not the manufacturer is responsible for the repair/replacement however...If enough people were successful in making claims under uk law it may push manufacturers to up their game and improve their products. As has already been said, the tech and components that fail in e bikes have been tried and tested for decades in millions of different applications. There's no excuse for most if not all of the failings I have read about regarding the motors and batteries. That's the way I see it anyway

 

[Pukmeister]

It seems it is not the electric motors within that are failing in most cases, its the whole "motor drive assembly" due to crank bearings or internal gears/belts failing.

The motor part is tried and tested but the crank bearings and internal drive components are not robust enough to take the ultimate loads they are subjected to, or well sealed enough from the ingress of dirt and moisture.

 

[Coletti]

It seems it is not the electric motors within that are failing in most cases, its the whole "motor drive assembly" due to crank bearings or internal gears/belts failing.

The motor part is tried and tested but the crank bearings and internal drive components are not robust enough to take the ultimate loads they are subjected to, or well sealed enough from the ingress of dirt and moisture.

So they have been built for something they aren up to the job of doing which surely constitutes to "not fit for purpose".

 

[Fivetones]

There’s still a whiff of “they’re holding back the best product” in these comments. I’m no lawyer but it doesn’t sound to me like there’s legal grounds for class action in this but I could be wrong.

If I was a manufacturer capable of producing motors I’d be looking to disrupt this whole market as it looks ripe for it.

In many ways the choice of motor Specialized made for the Creo could indicate they are thinking the same.

 

[Coletti]

There’s still a whiff of “they’re holding back the best product” in these comments. I’m no lawyer but it doesn’t sound to me like there’s legal grounds for class action in this but I could be wrong.

Yeah a little bit, but then why would they bother making something that will last longer when it seems the majority are happy to accept the failings and just buy another when warranty is up. The market is driven by the consumer and as long as the consumer is spending, there's no need to change what they are doing. I suppose you could say that the mystical and magnicificen "early adopter" you keep speaking of could be partially to blame. They seem more than happy to keep shelling out on products that aren't built to do what they are meant for. In all honesty, I'll probably end up buying one, something like the merida e160 900 that is designed to do far more than I will do on it, if it then fails there's good grounds for complaint.

My comparison to a vehicle was on the principle of the whole thing. Spending that kind of money you'd expect to get a product that lasts, doesn't matter what it is. Take for instance a wood chipper, spend 20k on one and you'll get over a thousand hours without hassle if you buy right and wood chippers essentially spend their lives trying to smash them selves to bits

 

[Fivetones]

The key point we agree on is that the market is driven by the consumer. None of us like the idea that there’s an inevitability in failure, even if we grudgingly accept it. If a manufacturer came along and had demonstrably better reliability they’d sweep the market.

The bike manufacturers would also prefer this. Reliability of a key component not under their control dents their brand and, for bigger manufacturers, makes shareholders very nervous.

I could easily see car manufacturers getting into ebikes seriously as they shift from selling cars to providing transport ‘packages’. There’s no way that scale of industry would accept the level of unreliability we’re seeing and would have much deeper R&D pockets at their disposal.

 

[Coletti]

The key point we agree on is that the market is driven by the consumer. None of us like the idea that there’s an inevitability in failure, even if we grudgingly accept it. If a manufacturer came along and had demonstrably better reliability they’d sweep the market.

The bike manufacturers would also prefer this. Reliability of a key component not under their control dents their brand and, for bigger manufacturers, makes shareholders very nervous.

I could easily see car manufacturers getting into ebikes seriously as they shift from selling cars to providing transport ‘packages’. There’s no way that scale of industry would accept the level of unreliability we’re seeing and would have much deeper R&D pockets at their disposal.

Do I sense a hint of agreement that In fact they aren't reliable enough and that more could be done to improve that haha

 

[Fivetones]

Do I sense a hint of agreement that In fact they aren't reliable enough and that more could be done to improve that haha

Oh, I’ve never disagreed that. The central pillar to my argument is that as early adopters we mostly accept that and that this isn’t a conspiracy by ‘arrogant manufacturers’.

 

[Gary]

as early adopters we mostly accept that

Early adopters?
Emtb isn't all that new.

and i most certainly don't find current motor manufacturers shitty product (un)reliability acceptible. Far from it.

and that this isn’t a conspiracy by ‘arrogant manufacturers’.

What the hell are you talking about?
Who said there was any conspiracy?
Or even mentioned manufacturers arrogance?

 

[Fivetones]

Gary, I interpret the comments as that. You can interpret them any way you like too. You clearly don’t agree with my summary but that’s up to you.

 

[Fivetones]

To answer your edit. As a consumer you clearly do accept it, albeit grudgingly. You bought a second Shimano-based emtb.

 

[Gary]

I've actually bought 3 Shimano base Emtbs
One of which cost me absolutely nothing though.
In buying the Sentier I naively believed the E7000 would actually be up to the relatively easy life of assisting a commuter bike.

Yes. i'm a fucking idiot consumer.

 

[Pukmeister]

I don't think bike manufacturers are deliberately taking up for mugs (your views may differ). They are probably tied into contracts with motor suppliers and unable to change existing designs. If the motors meet the bike makers laid down specifications in the contracts they might be powerless to change anything unless the motors exceeed their expected failure rates.

No manufacturer is going to release failure rate data willingly and thus effectively admit to selling a (measurably) inferior product compared to their rivals, so without official failure figures we can only speculate on which of the brands is most/least reliable.

I keep going on about Giant as its what I ride, but their batteries are their own label with Panasonic cells and the rebadged Yamaha motors also carry the Giant logo, which suggests they have faith in their product. Giant can't exactly go blaming Yamaha for failures when they have their name alongside the Yamaha logo. Thats not trying to say they are more or less reliable than other brands as I have no idea how many fail compared to others like Shimano, Brose, Bosch etc.

 

[Greny]

Don't be scared . E bikes do last . I have a Batavus(rebranded Sparta) e bike for town use with internal battery. It's 14 years old , still original battery and motor. With normal use I still have 40 km range.
I sold loads of these Sparta Batavus bikes back in the day in my shop. Never had engine prolems more display problems back in the day. Then came Cannondale with the first gen Bosch engine (the 1 st year exclusive rights to Cannondale). It was a cracker and a decent modern almost faultless bike. E bikes of quality last (imho)

 

[Greny]

I don't think bike manufacturers are deliberately taking up for mugs (your views may differ). They are probably tied into contracts with motor suppliers and unable to change existing designs. If the motors meet the bike makers laid down specifications in the contracts they might be powerless to change anything unless the motors exceeed their expected failure rates.

No manufacturer is going to release failure rate data willingly and thus effectively admit to selling a (measurably) inferior product compared to their rivals, so without official failure figures we can only speculate on which of the brands is most/least reliable.

I keep going on about Giant as its what I ride, but their batteries are their own label with Panasonic cells and the rebadged Yamaha motors also carry the Giant logo, which suggests they have faith in their product. Giant can't exactly go blaming Yamaha for failures when they have their name alongside the Yamaha logo. Thats not trying to say they are more or less reliable than other brands as I have no idea how many fail compared to others like Shimano, Brose, Bosch etc.

Ofc Giant can. Some big brands want there name to be seen everywhere. So Giant orders x amount of Yamaha engines with on the cover Giant printed. Every time an engine breaks down the dealer sends it to Yamaha or Giant (depending Giants dealer agreement) and they get warranty from Yamaha.

 

[HORSPWR]

Everything lasts longer if you lose weight!

Especially your hips and knees!