How are eMTBs 1/3 the price of a Tesla model 3?

[SwampNut]

I've a brother I'd like to see but the journey is 400 miles to get there
So if i start with a full battery I would have to stop at some point to hang around to charge the battery again

How do you find these situations
When one can go into any fuel station and take fuel in less than 10 minutes and on your way again

I drive to visit my brother 400 miles away regularly. That's Phoenix to Los Angeles. There are multiple chargers on the way, and they are very fast. Unless I'm towing the trailer, the stop is around 12-15 minutes. By the time I've taken a leak, bought a drink and food, the usual, the charge is about done. Before buying the Tesla I pretended to be a Tesla using my previous vehicle. I figured out that chargers are everywhere I want to be, and that I take 15 minutes on a stop, not the 5 I thought I did.

But unlike ICE...

I can charge at his house and leave full again.

The car can charge while I have lunch, and be full, often at no cost.

Back when I had an office...I could charge there, no cost.

I often meet him at a spot in the desert to camp and ride, and guess what....free charging at the RV park (paying for the RV slot of course). I leave full. He goes to the gas station.

I drive to Vegas a few times a year. Stop to charge, eat lunch, it's nearly full when I'm done (paid for however, about $8-10). The friend I visit there drives to see me, pays $40 in gas. Not to mention the overall added maintenance cost that's hidden.

Insurance dropped by 35% since it's a far safer car than most others.

I arrive there refreshed, no cares, no stress. I used to get there tired and it's always been a running joke that when we see each other, "I'm ready for a f.ing drink. So this idiot on the road did...."

Overall I had no idea what to expect going into it. I was motivated by the numbers I could do on cost, and even more so by the fact that the wife's BMW was out of warranty and you know that a BMW is just a ticking time bomb of $10k repairs. We traded that for the Tesla. And then.....I never drove the truck that I previously was very much in love with. I'm not a car guy. I've never owned a sedan before, ever. And there's just no way you can make me drive a low-tech car ever again. I sold the truck.

 

[SwampNut]

Oh, I forgot to give some hard numbers. I'll use my neighbor's numbers because he consistently drives the same routes almost every day, I vary a lot. He does 15k miles per year. He was spending $400-500/mo on gas. He spends $20-22 on electricity. He was doing two oil changes a year, that's gone. And brakes every 3-4 years, gone. Etc.

 

[irie]

Amerika is not the rest of the world. Just saying.

 

[sandnap]

#1 Economies of scale

Tesla makes only a few models and they have produced them for several years without major retooling. Big bike companies have several models with several build levels and several sizes of each. Small companies have fewer models but sell a lot less units. The cost of each unit goes down significantly as the number produced goes up.

#2 Expensive 3rd party components

A stock Tesla may seem reasonably priced but if you demanded the top brand seats, sound system, wheels, tires, carbon body, etc.. it would get expensive pretty quickly. Mid-top tier name brand mtb components are expensive.

Bottom line, Tesla is a mass produced product coming from a state of the art automated facility where they manufacture almost every part. Mountain bike manufactures assemble bikes from top tier component providers and produce far fewer of each model/configuration.

Also, getting ripped off is a subjective, personal choice. No one is being forced to buy expensive bikes.

 

[SwampNut]

#1 Economies of scale

Tesla makes only a few models and they have produced them for several years without major retooling. Big bike companies have several models with several build levels and several sizes of each. Small companies have fewer models but sell a lot less units. The cost of each unit goes down significantly as the number produced goes up.

#2 Expensive 3rd party components

A stock Tesla may seem reasonably priced but if you demanded the top brand seats, sound system, wheels, tires, carbon body, etc.. it would get expensive pretty quickly. Mid-top tier name brand mtb components are expensive.

Bottom line, Tesla is a mass produced product coming from a state of the art automated facility where they manufacture almost every part. Mountain bike manufactures assemble bikes from top tier component providers and produce far fewer of each model/configuration.

Also, getting ripped off is a subjective, personal choice. No one is being forced to buy expensive bikes.

Your post is very accurate except for the retooling bit. However, when they did it, they reduced the weld counts and piece count on the car by some insanely huge number, which then reduced the cost. They are constantly changing the entire process which costs money, but then saves far more.

Tesla Rethinks the Assembly Line

Engineers at Tesla Inc. have developed a new process that they claim will reduce EV production costs by 50 percent, while reducing factory space by 40 percent.

www.assemblymag.com

 

[sandnap]

Your post is very accurate except for the retooling bit. However, when they did it, they reduced the weld counts and piece count on the car by some insanely huge number, which then reduced the cost. They are constantly changing the entire process which costs money, but then saves far more.

Tesla Rethinks the Assembly Line

Engineers at Tesla Inc. have developed a new process that they claim will reduce EV production costs by 50 percent, while reducing factory space by 40 percent.

www.assemblymag.com

Interesting, a great example of leveraging the enonomies of scale. If they were only producing 10% of what they are they may not have been able to recoupe that retooling investment and therefore wouldn't be able to offer better pricing than competitive products.

 

[irie]

Also, getting ripped off is a subjective, personal choice. No one is being forced to buy expensive bikes.

Shocking. But true.

 

[Quinterly]

Only if you trust what the lamestream media is telling you, along with 100,000 anti-Tesla, anti-EV web bots and their copy-cat minions.

We have 3 six-year-old Tesla's, two RWD Long-Range Model 3 and one AWD Performance Model 3. The RWD Model 3 were the least expensive cars we could buy from Tesla in 2018 and they were the best new cars we have ever owned in terms of reliability, driving dynamics, feature set, efficiency, power and performance and convenience. Now, one just turned over 100,000 miles, one has over 70,000 miles and one has 32,000 miles (so about 203,000 combined miles).

Guess what? They live a hard life on bad roads, are parked either outside all the time or partially covered by a one-car carport and they still look and drive almost as new. They have barely needed anything beyond tires, wiper blades and windshield washer fluid. They all have the original brakes. None of them show any rust and the paint still looks shiny after I wash them. The seats are STILL the most comfortable car or truck seats I have ever experienced, and they look new except for normal shiny spots in the high wear areas. Sure, the paintwork has normal small rock chips if you look carefully, but they don't detract from the appearance if you stand back 8 feet, they are invisible. Most of the wheels have varying degrees of curb rash which is the thing that stands out the most relative to a brand-new car.

Both of us are over 60 years old and have bought a good number of nicer new or nearly cars over the years and all three of these blow away anything we have ever owned in terms of reliability and low cost of operation. Not to mention having really nice sounding stereos, super-fast warm-up in the winter, and keeping the cabin occupants cool as cucumbers on hot summer days. Unlike our other cars, the cabin climate controls just keep working perfectly, we change the cabin air filters every 2-3 years, that's it. Things just don't break on these cars like they have with every other car we have ever owned.

I think owning these cars for six years, and putting them through their paces in snow, slush and ice, bad roads, rugged mountain rocky roads where I have to pick my way between and around jagged rocks and road washouts, taking high-speed road trips with a lot of driving around 90 mph, and some sections up to 130 mph on lonely, remote roads, and keeping them parked outside in the weather most of the time, qualifies as me as knowing more about how these cars perform and last in the real world than the web bots and Internet detractors. They are really good cars, made to last.

So, when I see someone who has never even driven one claim they are "shit", I just have to laugh at the ignorance displayed. Their quality and reliability is why I'm about to take delivery of a Cybertruck, to replace our aging 2010 F-150 4x4. I have zero doubt it will out-perform the Ford in every respect.

Fact: The best-selling car in the world in 2023 was the Tesla Model Y, outselling every gas car made. No automaker can achieve that enviable title without offering new car buyers superior value. That's how any automaker always achieves that title, by offering new car buyers superior value. I'm glad an American car company finally took back the title of "Best-selling car in the world" after decades of it being dominated by Japanese Automakers.

You've clearly been drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid. You probably think you're saving the environment too (that's not climate change denial, that's about the environmental costs of BEVs).

Personally, if I thought BEV's were the answer, I certainly wouldn't be doing business with a sub-human POS like Elon Musk and would go to superior products from other manufacturers. There are plenty of e-bike manufacturers that don't cause me to have to compromise my values.

 

[Tooks]

I must admit to having my melon twisted a little bit by the negative and uninformed attitudes to BEVs from some on a forum dedicated to EMTBs, that themselves are often subjected to ill informed views and ‘facts’ from those who for whatever reason think that they’re ‘wrong’.

Live and let live, what car we drive shouldn’t bother anybody else, but there have been some good posts about how the economies of scale and true mass manufacturing can make things less costly.

I hesitate to say cheap, because it feels like nothing is these days, apart from talk obviously!

 

[arTNC]

Ebikes will have crazy profit margins, where cars can run extremely thin margins and competition is fierce.
6300$ gets you this

Kawasaki KLX®300R | Off-Road Motorcycle | The Ultimate Trail Bike

The Kawasaki KLX®300R trail bike is powered by a 292cc liquid-cooled 4-stroke single and features a lightweight perimeter frame for ultimate off-road thrills.

www.kawasaki.com

and thats about the cost of most EMTBs people are riding

I love how they classify it as "the ultimate trail bike"...LOL! I might argue that point with them, and I have an '06 model in my garage. I do love the bike for what it is and what it has gotten me through, but "ultimate trail bike" might be a little over the top.

On the idea that the Chinese can or are flooding the market on emtb's, I think I notice that their brands that are decently spec'd with good components and seemingly well built frames are not that cheap. Sure you can find some here and there, but those bikes are usually poorly built, poorly equipped components, and lousy batteries.

On the motorcycle and scooter front, there is some real junk out there, especially in the scooter department. However, companies like CF Moto and such are making some pretty solid motorcycles. And while a bit cheaper than an equivalent KTM or Honda, they are not what I call cheap.

Also on the price of Teslas and other EV's, aren't they heavily subsidized in most places by governments?...or is that still a thing?

 

[Stoffel]

Each to their own. I’d take the price of a new Tesla and spend it on 2 EMTB’s and a diesel van to transport them.

 

[RJUK]

I drive to visit my brother 400 miles away regularly. That's Phoenix to Los Angeles. There are multiple chargers on the way, and they are very fast. Unless I'm towing the trailer, the stop is around 12-15 minutes. By the time I've taken a leak, bought a drink and food, the usual, the charge is about done. Before buying the Tesla I pretended to be a Tesla using my previous vehicle. I figured out that chargers are everywhere I want to be, and that I take 15 minutes on a stop, not the 5 I thought I did.

But unlike ICE...

I can charge at his house and leave full again.

The car can charge while I have lunch, and be full, often at no cost.

Back when I had an office...I could charge there, no cost.

I often meet him at a spot in the desert to camp and ride, and guess what....free charging at the RV park (paying for the RV slot of course). I leave full. He goes to the gas station.

I drive to Vegas a few times a year. Stop to charge, eat lunch, it's nearly full when I'm done (paid for however, about $8-10). The friend I visit there drives to see me, pays $40 in gas. Not to mention the overall added maintenance cost that's hidden.

Insurance dropped by 35% since it's a far safer car than most others.

I arrive there refreshed, no cares, no stress. I used to get there tired and it's always been a running joke that when we see each other, "I'm ready for a fucking drink. So this idiot on the road did...."

Overall I had no idea what to expect going into it. I was motivated by the numbers I could do on cost, and even more so by the fact that the wife's BMW was out of warranty and you know that a BMW is just a ticking time bomb of $10k repairs. We traded that for the Tesla. And then.....I never drove the truck that I previously was very much in love with. I'm not a car guy. I've never owned a sedan before, ever. And there's just no way you can make me drive a low-tech car ever again. I sold the truck.

Give up mate, you can't educate pork.

I too have a Tesla and it's easily the best car I've ever had. I know several others with them as well and they all say the same thing.

Faster than many Ferraris but costs less to run than a 1 litre hatchback? Yes please!

The problem is that people have been sucking down oil propaganda for decades and still believe that tosh.

Apparently electric cars are soulless because there's not a knob on the centre console (and in the driver's seat) to waggle around as you drive. Or because they don't make a noise. The truth being that most people prefer autos anyway as evidenced by the death of manuals in favour of flappy paddle gearboxes and most modern cars including performance models make drab noises that aren't worth hearing.

The funny thing is that if we'd had electric cars for decades and everyone was used to them, there's zero chance that anyone would buy an ICE if they were the new option.

"Hey, do you wanna pay 10x the price to fuel your car? A car that spews toxic gases into the air around you? A car that's slower and noisier than your old one and is rarely in the power band? That needs regular expensive servicing to keep it going? That's contributing to climate change?"

"No, you say?"

"Did I mention that it has a funny stick in the centre console that you can waggle around whilst you drive? And an extra pedal so your left foot doesn't feel left out?"

"Still no? Hmm, go figure. What about if I told you it has a soul? Why? Oh because of the waggly stick thing and that noise that comes out of the toxic fume hole."

"What do you mean leave you alone?"

Just ignore the nay sayers whilst they catch up. They say you're dull if you mention the virtues of an electric car, then ask them what gives their car a "soul" and makes it less boring and prepare to be bored to death by their nerdy answer trying to justify their purchase.

And no, I'm not a Tesla fan boy, I like to think I'm objective about products that I have.

Myself and my colleague refer to our Teslas as "the best worst cars we've ever had".

Panel alignment is pretty dire, albeit it's much better on the newer cars. Also Tesla show their lack of experience in other ways, like if you open the boot of my car it dumps any rainwater on the rear window, which then slides straight into the boot because there isn't a big enough rain channel to catch it. Derp.

Or how the rear bumper is nice and flush without the usual lip that most cars have... Which is great until you get into a light rear ender which destroys the bootlid because it's basically flush with the rear bumper.

But then bizarrely they do some things way better than legacy automakers can manage. Like the hill hold assist. It works perfectly. Way better than on any other car I've ever had. And the infotainment/software/electronic stuff, though it hasn't changed a great deal since I got the car 4.5 years ago, it's still light years ahead of most other car companies, who all say you can do OTA updates then call you into the dealership at the first sniff of a software glitch.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Would I have another Tesla, absolutely. Despite the flaws, there's still very little else that comes close to it, and newer ones are built better anyway. Will I get another one next time? I'm not sure. There are other great cars coming onto the market and I'm not the sort of person that just blindly sticks with one brand.

Would I go back to an ICE? No, not unless I won the lottery and was able to afford something properly exotic with some actual drama. And even then, my daily would still be an EV.

 

[MountainBoy]

Each to their own. I’d take the price of a new Tesla and spend it on 2 EMTB’s and a diesel van to transport them.

Why would you compare the price of a brand-new Tesla to a used, beater diesel van and two e-MTB's? The point I'm making is you couldn't get much in the way of a diesel van and two e-MTBs for the $25K you can pick up a nice used Tesla for. Or for the $40K of a new Tesla.

 

[SwampNut]

Live and let live, what car we drive shouldn’t bother anybody else

I've had people directly tell me that my choice DOES affect them, because of some insane political assumptions they make. I can't even get near their idiotic "logic" or thought process.

I certainly wouldn't be doing business with a sub-human POS like Elon Musk and would go to superior products from other manufacturers.

And this is one example. I will say that my car choice is not political and be told that it is. I don't give one flying fuck about Musk, and will choose the superior product on its own. Not the narcissistic child running the company. It's only right now that some other EVs are catching up somewhat to many things Tesla has always done way better. And they are still behind, which is why there are so many unsold 2023 BEVs in my city. It's becoming a crisis. It's still extremely hard to objectively choose another BEV, their only benefit is not buying from Musk. I still cannot make my 400 mile trip in a Ford, without a huge amount of time charging. That should get fixed, but isn't.

Now, I have a Zero SR/S electric sport bike, and that is absolutely stupid. It's completely unjustifiable. But motorcycles in the US are really luxury items and about fun, and I love it. Range is awful, charging is slow, it was expensive. But it's stupid fast and I love the control.

 

[irie]

Give up mate, you can't educate pork.

Nope, especially Tesla branded pork.

 

[TommyC]

Seems the yanks are rather protective of their milk floats

 

[Quinterly]

Not liking Teslas is not ill-informed. Liking Teslas is personal opinion as is disliking them. I think they're ugly, I think they're poor value, I think they are gimmick over substance ... all of which is personal opinion. But it's not ill-informed.

What is ill-informed is blindly accepting the argument that you're saving the planet by driving a BEV. You live in a state that derives 60% of its electrical generation from fossil fuels, >10% of that being coal. Every time you plug your precious Tesla in to recharge ... you're burning fossil fuels. In terms of non-greenhouse gas emissions, BEVs are brutal for the environment. Solving one environmental crisis by creating two more is not saving the planet.

 

[RJUK]

Nope, especially Tesla branded pork.

"I know you are but what am I".

Great comeback.

 

[SwampNut]

Not liking Teslas is not ill-informed. Liking Teslas is personal opinion as is disliking them. I think they're ugly, I think they're poor value, I think they are gimmick over substance ... all of which is personal opinion. But it's not ill-informed.

"Like" is an opinion, and you can have one. Whether they are a good value is math, you can't have an opinion on math. See the difference?

I have no idea who your other silliness about the environment is aimed at. The majority of MY power comes from nuclear, particularly the car charging power. See, the nuke plant needs to get rid of power at night, on low demand, because it can't just turn down. And I also gave ZERO thought to the environment in my MATH based decision. Again, it's quite the chore talking sense and facts to anti-EV people making things up as they go.

 

[SwampNut]

Oh yeah, since we have so much extra night power, they use it to pump water up a four-lake system in the mountains. Then it runs down in the day and regenerates power. It's basically a water-gravity battery. If we had more EVs, we could make great use of that surplus overnight power, since that's when they charge.

 

[Tooks]

What is ill-informed is blindly accepting the argument that you're saving the planet by driving a BEV. You live in a state that derives 60% of its electrical generation from fossil fuels, >10% of that being coal. Every time you plug your precious Tesla in to recharge ... you're burning fossil fuels. In terms of non-greenhouse gas emissions, BEVs are brutal for the environment. Solving one environmental crisis by creating two more is not saving the planet.

I’m sorry, but how is doing ‘more of the same’ any better?

What is ‘brutal for the environment’ is using a fossil fuel powered car, or any car for that matter.

Every credible study I’ve read states that a BEV over its build and use phase over its lifetime is lower versus its ICE equivalent, almost regardless of the electricity generation. It’s not me saying that, but Volvo, for one. https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...com/pdf/c40/volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf

It clearly depends on where you live and how your electricity is generated, but I don’t think anywhere is ‘worse’ for running an EV versus an ICE.

EVs will never ‘save the planet’, you need to get that out of your head, and they were never going to, but they are less impactful overall. It’s but one small step. The only ‘green motoring’ is no motoring at all, regardless.

I’m not anti-oil, far from it, and work in the aviation industry where the energy density of fossil fuel is the only current way, but we need oil to support the Western way of life, and I would say it seems far too valuable to burn in a mere car if you have a viable alternative, and an EV works fine for a huge amount of people.

You don’t need to ‘pick a side’, just accept that what works for you might not work for everybody, or that some people might make different choices to you.

And not a lot to do with the price of EMTBs either! It’s the way of the world at the moment though, pick a side and make sure you’re on transmit, and not receive.

 

[TommyC]

"Like" is an opinion, and you can have one. Whether they are a good value is math, you can't have an opinion on math. See the difference?

I have no idea who your other silliness about the environment is aimed at. The majority of MY power comes from nuclear, particularly the car charging power. See, the nuke plant needs to get rid of power at night, on low demand, because it can't just turn down. And I also gave ZERO thought to the environment in my MATH based decision. Again, it's quite the chore talking sense and facts to anti-EV people making things up as they go.

So your entire process for buying a car is MATHS? You sound like a real barrel of laughs!

 

[irie]

Not liking Teslas is not ill-informed. Liking Teslas is personal opinion as is disliking them. I think they're ugly, I think they're poor value, I think they are gimmick over substance ... all of which is personal opinion. But it's not ill-informed.

What is ill-informed is blindly accepting the argument that you're saving the planet by driving a BEV. You live in a state that derives 60% of its electrical generation from fossil fuels, >10% of that being coal. Every time you plug your precious Tesla in to recharge ... you're burning fossil fuels. In terms of non-greenhouse gas emissions, BEVs are brutal for the environment. Solving one environmental crisis by creating two more is not saving the planet.

I was going to wade into this with manufacturing costs and energy and other resource consumption jazz but I really can't be arsed.

 

[RJUK]

Not liking Teslas is not ill-informed. Liking Teslas is personal opinion as is disliking them. I think they're ugly, I think they're poor value, I think they are gimmick over substance ... all of which is personal opinion. But it's not ill-informed.

What is ill-informed is blindly accepting the argument that you're saving the planet by driving a BEV. You live in a state that derives 60% of its electrical generation from fossil fuels, >10% of that being coal. Every time you plug your precious Tesla in to recharge ... you're burning fossil fuels. In terms of non-greenhouse gas emissions, BEVs are brutal for the environment. Solving one environmental crisis by creating two more is not saving the planet.

That's making assumptions though. For all you know he could power his car entirely from solar. And again, that's one person. We don't all live in his state. My energy provider only offers renewable energy and despite the environmental implications of producing the battery it will quickly become cleaner than an ICE as it's not spewing out fumes for years once it's built.

And even then, just because the grid is still dominated by dirty fossil fuels doesn't mean that nobody should bother pivoting away from them. I suspect there would be another excuse even if all energy was 100% clean.

I would still say your opinion is ill informed. An ICE car as quick as mine would be far more costly to buy and run. So by that comparison my car is very good value. I cannot find a single other car as quick as mine that comes close to being as affordable.

Yes, there are gimmicks, but nobody buys a Tesla for fart mode. Don't take so much stock in what you see online. I'm not sure what extra substance you're after. My car can do everything an equivalent BMW or Mercedes can do, and like for like a Tesla is cheaper to buy with their aggressive pricing.

It does seem an awful lot like all the gripes people have with Teslas are very feeling-based, not based on any facts or figures and often very vague.

 

[SwampNut]

So your entire process for buying a car is MATHS? You sound like a real barrel of laughs!

Yes, or nearly so. Motorcycles and bicycles are for fun, and purchased emotionally, as I said about my electric motorcycle. Cars are just tools. Boring tools. No car can compare to the fun of bikes, so I gave up on trying to have fun cars.

That said, the insane acceleration is indeed fun.

Oh, and my car is set to quack as the alarm/lock sound. That makes me giggle every time.

 

[Quinterly]

That's making assumptions though. For all you know he could power his car entirely from solar. And again, that's one person. We don't all live in his state. My energy provider only offers renewable energy and despite the environmental implications of producing the battery it will quickly become cleaner than an ICE as it's not spewing out fumes for years once it's built.

And even then, just because the grid is still dominated by dirty fossil fuels doesn't mean that nobody should bother pivoting away from them. I suspect there would be another excuse even if all energy was 100% clean.

I would still say your opinion is ill informed. An ICE car as quick as mine would be far more costly to buy and run. So by that comparison my car is very good value. I cannot find a single other car as quick as mine that comes close to being as affordable.

Yes, there are gimmicks, but nobody buys a Tesla for fart mode. Don't take so much stock in what you see online. I'm not sure what extra substance you're after. My car can do everything an equivalent BMW or Mercedes can do, and like for like a Tesla is cheaper to buy with their aggressive pricing.

It does seem an awful lot like all the gripes people have with Teslas are very feeling-based, not based on any facts or figures and often very vague.

I am not suggesting that we don't need to pivot away from fossil fuels. We absolutely do. However, I am pretty sure that mass adoption of BEVs is not the answer because of all the other environmental harms. Whether it's green/blue hydrogen (either FCEV or ICE) or synthetic fuels, or something else isn't clear yet. It is indisputable that BEVs are, emissions aside, a pox on the environment.

The grid issue is not universal (I live in a jurisdiction that is pretty close to 100% hydro-electric generation) but there are jurisdictions where the marginal generation of electricity for mass adoption of BEVs will be almost universally fossil fuel (including Arizona) which defeats some of the lemming-like arguments in favour.

As for your car vs mine. I paid $3000 less for a new RS3 than a comparably equipped Model 3 (admittedly before EV rebates). My RS3 is sub-4 seconds (in other words, quicker than a Model 3). And, I would note that there is more to driving dynamics than acceleration which are militate in favour of the RS3. Yes, I concede it is more costly to run because I have to buy gas but your hubris over the value proposition of your Tesla is ... "ill-informed".

 

[SwampNut]

My RS3 is sub-4 seconds (in other words, quicker than a Model 3

Not quicker than *MY* M3LR, but quicker than a base SR.

The battery problem with the environemnt is being solved. I think that should ease the environmental concerns, right? One reclamation company is getting better than 90% recycling and expects to exceed 95. And being mostly nuke-charged is, IMO, environmentally friendly. This won't apply everywhere.

Now, we still have slave child labor to mine stuff, but I really don't like kids, so it's a win win for me.

 

[irie]

...
Now, we still have slave child labor to mine stuff, but I really don't like kids, so it's a win win for me.

 

[TommyC]

And there lies the rub. Tesla owners generally aren’t ’car guys’. For some of us a car is more than just a tool. It needs to offer something more than value for money.

For me the Tesla is poorly built and almost impossible to work on yourself. Once that batteries gone the car is disposable. My gripe is more with ev’s in general, not just Tesla. Watch them all die a slow death once they figure out hydrogen.

 

[Tooks]

And, I would note that there is more to driving dynamics than acceleration which are militate in favour of the RS3.

Agreed there, I owned a Mk1 RS3 and before that an Audi S2, and the 5 Cylinder engine note is one of my favourites!

I’m a fan of cars, whatever powers them, a good car is a good car at the end of the day.