Price of bikes - some thoughts....

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Of course they don't Neeko. They all have a additional motor and battery FFS!
But that doesn't mean they don't STILL represent similar value to normal bikes. An Emtb generally costs somewhere between £1200 - £2000 more than the equvalent normal bike from the same manufacturer with the same spec.
I'm not sure what's so difficult to accept about this? Bearing in mind the motor/battery and all the required wiring/controller/sensor/display parts and charger etc. required with most common mid motor Emtbs retails for £2k+

Yesterday* I briefly rode a mid range Cannondale roadbike with an RRP of £8k. The top end version is £10500 (No that's not a typo)
TBH I still preferred my 9yr old TCR

Expensive bicycles isn't something new. So can we please all just stop moaning about prices? It really does make for incredibly dull reading!

Yeah. Thought not

Lol, I'm just saying @Gary. And for the record (as many have diligently noticed) I've got more bikes than days of the week ?

But I think the real method to enlighten those who would question the price of either bikes and/or components is to break down the fundamentals of how each of us perceives a bike. To some, it represents novelty. To others, it represents luxury to a lot of us (myself included) its necessity. I gladly admit that this same point has been uttered on previous threads.

The bike has done for me more than any other hobby I was nudged into because I chose it without being influenced. That's why I ride and pay the price which is required. But as I mentioned before, 'not everyone thinks the same way'. So I try and explain (patiently), in an effort for others to form their own opinions.

But hey, my cousin reminds me that my way of thinking is 'old school' so take my rationale with a pinch of salt ?

 

[Gary]

I've got more bikes than you mate. and I ride 1000+ different bikes a year. Why would it matter what other folk think of that?
Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Old skool would be not having to explain everything at all...

The only reasons to ride a bike are enjoyment or necessity... combine both and you're onto a winner. .

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I've got more bikes than you mate.

Oh, that's sounds like a challenge.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours ?

 

[apac]

Wow, that's quite few bikes. How many can ride at the same time?

 

[Gary]

Two

 

[Gary]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours ?

I'm not that interested TBH. ?

There are already pics of some of my bikes on here too
At the moment I own
3x BMXs (1x steel DJ bike, 1x steel park bike, 1x Alu race bike)
2x 200mm Alu DH bikes
1x 170mm carbon FS Enduro bike
1x 120mm Alu FS Slopestyle bike
3x basic 100-120mm Alu hardtails
1x Ali 4X hardtail (also 120mm)
1x Alu 170mm FS Emtb
1x Carbon roadbike
I also have the use of an alu roadbike, 120mm FS XC bike, 140mm 29er hardtail, a 29/27.5 200mm DH bike, a 170mm 29er Enduro bike and a 170mm 29/27.5 Eeb

the other 1000+ bikes a year I ride aren't mine.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I'm not that interested TBH. ?

There are already pics of some of my bikes on here too
At the moment I own
3x BMXs (1x steel DJ bike, 1x steel park bike, 1x Alu race bike)
2x 200mm Alu DH bikes
1x 170mm carbon FS Enduro bike
1x 120mm Alu FS Slopestyle bike
3x basic 100-120mm Alu hardtails
1x Ali 4X hardtail (also 120mm)
1x Alu 170mm FS Emtb
1x Carbon roadbike
I also have the use of an alu roadbike, 120mm FS XC bike, 140mm 29er hardtail, a 29/27.5 200mm DH bike, a 170mm 29er Enduro bike and a 170mm 29/27.5 Eeb

the other 1000+ bikes a year I ride aren't mine.

Impressive. Most impressive!!!

I won't embarrass you Gary. Keep on riding buddy ??

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Wow, that's quite few bikes. How many can ride at the same time?

Depends. I've gotta shoot a climbing challenge video between my Status and two other bikes which haven't been featured on the channel yet.
I'll get back to you on that one??

 

[Mattzzzzzz]

Frame £400
Fork £900
Wheelset £400
Groupset with brakes £500
Motor £1000
Battery £1000
Dropper £100
Tyres £80
Seat grips etc £50
Bars and stem £100
Headset £50
Small items chainstay cover, bearings etc £50

so £4600ish at Retail on a5k plus bike not including any shipping or tax or build costs

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Frame £400
Fork £900
Wheelset £400
Groupset with brakes £500
Motor £1000
Battery £1000
Dropper £100
Tyres £80
Seat grips etc £50
Bars and stem £100
Headset £50
Small items chainstay cover, bearings etc £50

so £4600ish at Retail on a5k plus bike not including any shipping or tax or build costs

Cant forget,
Charger, cranks, rear shock, wire harness/loom, manufacturer warranty ?

 

[Gary]

WTF is that list of random prices even meant to signify?

 

[Pdoz]

WTF is that list of random prices even meant to signify?

That he doesn't value the frame and he's never replaced all the suspension bearings / bushes?

 

[Mattzzzzzz]

Fag packet economics?

 

[Mattzzzzzz]

My post goes back to Redbikejohn’s original post that it would be hard to build a decent ebike for less than 3k like the decathlon stilus was.
My prices were retail (ish) apart from frame which a supplier would buy in from Chiiina .

I have also changed plenty of frame bearings thanks pdoz

 

[Pdoz]

My post goes back to Redbikejohn’s original post that it would be hard to build a decent ebike for less than 3k like the decathlon stilus was.
My prices were retail (ish) apart from frame which a supplier would buy in from Chiiina .

I have also changed plenty of frame bearings thanks pdoz

Ah, so you're the guy chuckling on the train Wed morning after seeing a stand up comic on Friday?

Or making a REALY astute statement about the true cost of selling products in the modern era? My head just exploded - that's a LOT of paper round $

 

[Gary]

@Mattzzzzzz it's actually impossible to build ANY bike (normal or Eeb) to the same spec as the manufacturer does if buying all the components separately at RRP.
infact most £4k bikes would cost you an extra £2k to do so. The only way to do it cheaper is to find pretty much every component discounted.

Your prices are waaaay off

for a quick example you've chosen to price 2 tyres at £80 when infact the tyres found on the likes of Vitus Emtbs (at around £4k) at UK RRP would cost £79.99 per tyre, £14.99 per tube and around £10-20 for rim tape. so in actual fact over £200

you also completely missed out a few parts from your list.

 

[Mattzzzzzz]

I think Ebikes are expensive but we keep paying it and if we don’t someone else will along with 10 others in the queue.
Supply and demand makes the world go round
I’m off to bed as up early for a blast round the local trail on my eeeb

 

[Gary]

night

 

[Rotwilder]

How about this: build a bike by sourcing all the materials and try and put everything together. Consider how the hell is anything made from scratch! Then think how reasonable the costs are. It’s like someone has already said: it makes the World go round.

 

[Labrador29]

I don't work in the bike industry so I don't have the price breakdown. But even if I did it would not help the argument. The fact that a bike maker just assembles items bought off the shelf does not mean that there is no design and development cost embedded in the price. If the design was older than the write off period of the initial design and development cost then the item may be sold cheaper without affecting the profit. If we were still buying rusting steel framed bikes with rod brakes then they would be really cheap if there was a market for them!. Once the products have been made whether they are components or complete bikes, if they don't sell fast enough, every maker and/or retailer discounts them. They do this because they lose less money that way. All companies do it except those that deliberately restrict the amount they make, or trash any they can't sell as a matter of policy.

@Gary is right, if people object to paying the price in sufficient numbers, the stocks of unsold bikes will rise and prices will fall. The answer is in our hands.

You're showing your age there Steve! Rod Brakes!!!!!!! My Late father opened a bike shop in New Zealand nearly 70 years ago. Rod brakes were a thing of the past then!!!
That would be a great question for "The Chase".

 

[steve_sordy]

You're showing your age there Steve! Rod Brakes!!!!!!! My Late father opened a bike shop in New Zealand nearly 70 years ago. Rod brakes were a thing of the past then!!!
That would be a great question for "The Chase".

I had one, it was my first 2-wheel bike. I got it as a surprise present from my parents (unknown then and since). I was 8 or 9 years old (more than 60 years ago) and my two best mates both had bikes and I didn't. My Mum told my Dad that I was running after them and I reckon it plucked his heart strings. I don't know where he got it from, but he had it serviced and shined up at the local bike shop and sent me there "to pick up a package". You can imagine how wide my eyes popped when I realised it was for me! On that day, it was the finest bike that I had ever seen!

It had a 3-speed Sturmey-Archer hub gear and rod brakes. Judging by how fast it rusted, it was definitely a steel framed bike, and bars, cranks, pretty much everything except grips, tyres, pedals, saddle and brake blocks! I grew out of it and my younger brother took it over. It lived in what used to be the outside toilet and eventually it just rusted away.

 

[Labrador29]

I had one, it was my first 2-wheel bike. I got it as a surprise present from my parents (unknown then and since). I was 8 or 9 years old (more than 60 years ago) and my two best mates both had bikes and I didn't. My Mum told my Dad that I was running after them and I reckon it plucked his heart strings. I don't know where he got it from, but he had it serviced and shined up at the local bike shop and sent me there "to pick up a package". You can imagine how wide my eyes popped when I realised it was for me! On that day, it was the finest bike that I had ever seen!

It had a 3-speed Sturmey-Archer hub gear and rod brakes. Judging by how fast it rusted, it was definitely a steel framed bike, and bars, cranks, pretty much everything except grips, tyres, pedals, saddle and brake blocks! I grew out of it and my younger brother took it over. It lived in what used to be the outside toilet and eventually it just rusted away.

What great memories Steve.
When I was about 11-12. Dad asked me if I wanted a new bike of my own. I had never owned a new bike, but decided I would prefer a second hand so I could go off-road with my mates. Dad completely stripped, and rebuilt a Rudge 26" in the colour of my choice. It had to be red, and it looked like new.
Like yours, it had rear hub 3 speed Sturmey-Archer gears and a new saddle, and a bike stand. I thought I was made. That bike went off road too and was my pride and joy. I digress a little here. My older brother had a brand new 26". One day when he wasn't home, I found his new bike in the side shed and decided to take it for a ride through a nearby forest. I was hurtling around the corner on the dirt track, and came across a small pine tree that had fallen across the track. I was unable to stop in time, and crashed into it. I am thinking I am in serious crap here, as the front wheel was slightly out of shape and the forks slightly bent! I managed to get the bike home and shoved it back where I had found it. Of course when the damage was discovered, I underwent some intense grilling by both my father and my older brother, but like all good villains, I continued to deny, deny, deny. I felt guilty as hell because my brother loved his bike which was his pride and joy.
I did put up my hand many years later to being the culprit, but of course it was no surprise to my brother. Happy childhood memories.

 

[tomato paste]

@Gary is right, if people object to paying the price in sufficient numbers, the stocks of unsold bikes will rise and prices will fall. The answer is in our hands.

I see this alot when people are discussing price increases. But strangely you don't see people make the same remark when the toilet paper shelf at the store is empty.

Same situation, 'insufficient supply' but different outcomes: toilet paper prices remained the same, while bike prices increase. Note that people often refer to this as a 'law of supply and demand', but strangely they don't seem to mind that this law behaves rather like a drunken judge. States don't fix toilet paper prices, generally, so stores can raise those prices. But they don't.

Is it really supply and demand that determines price, but only with bikes and not toilet paper? Are you just saying that because it sounds right, but in reality, you don't know?

 

[Gary]

Is your roll of quilted toilet paper made from 50+ separate parts manufactured in 15 different factories in 8 different countries which are then all shipped worldwide to it's place of assemby. Then packaged and shipped to the distributor and finally sent to your local ALDI to be placed on that shelf for you?

Plus toilet paper has also risen in price since the beginning of the pandemic too. (between 2-48% worldwide)

don't ya just love it when a shit analogy get's blindly thrown in to a discussion? ?

 

[Pdoz]

don't ya just love it when a shit analogy get's blindly thrown in to a discussion? ?

" back before covid we'd walk 5 miles to school. In the snow. With toilet paper filling the holes in our shoes"

Locky " what's school? "
Lockette "bullshit gramps, everyone knows you die if you get more than a mile from home"
Delta "+ can we have another look at the last sheet? "

 

[tomato paste]

Is your roll of quilted toilet paper made from 50+ separate parts manufactured in 15 different factories in 8 different countries which are then all shipped worldwide to it's place of assemby. Then packaged and shipped to the distributor and finally sent to your local ALDI to be placed on that shelf for you?

Plus toilet paper has also risen in price since the beginning of the pandemic too. (between 2-48% worldwide)

don't ya just love it when a shit analogy get's blindly thrown in to a discussion? ?

Here's data for toilet paper* prices in the UK. Note that toilet paper prices (along with similar use products) are actually falling despite COVID demand increasing substantially, such that shortages were witnessed. Bum paper is a great example because it illustrates the absurdity of 'bUt DuH lAw oF sUpPlY 'n DeMaNd MaTe!' statements you typically find out and about. The inflation trend for TP is largely independent of demand fluctuations.

Arguments based on 'the law of demand and supply', where prices are determined by the intersection of a 'market demand curve' and a 'market supply curve' are inherently flawed. You'll notice there's no analysis published anywhere depicting a literal 'demand curve' nor a literal 'supply curve' for bikes, and there are very good reasons for this absence. But, people still base their thinking and go to great lengths to construct arguments based on 'demand 'n supply' tautologies.

Each bike component manufacturer (note that most components come from 3 suppliers) faces the same pricing decision a TP reseller does. Changing their prices is not just a function of input costs, but is largely a function of market power. And, bike producers have witnessed a large increase in market power since COVID began, because of legal restrictions on human activity. That is why bike prices have increased: because producers have the power to do so. It is not due to shipping container costs, nor logistic supply chain complexity.

EDIT: Something else to consider is the increase in household disposable income during COVID, and that existing bike consumers purchasing habits are unchanged by COVID. Subsequently, increasing prices simply absorbs the increase in disposable income. Existing bike consumers will simply pay proportionally more during COVID and bike producers know this. Specialized comes to mind in this regard.

 

[Gary]

I haven't bothered to read your post. Just looked at the pretty graph and got the gist of your pointless tin foil hat argument.

The fact is the Cycle industry is still massively struggling to keep up with manufacturing demand, shipping and supply to retail.

the predicted graph looks a little like this

 

[j_s]

Ignoring covid causing the manufacture delays, shipping delays etc, does the bike industry want to increase how much it is manufacturing? The bike sales bubble will surely pop as things eventually return to normal (or new normal, who knows) and therefore the opposite problem will exist, too much stock of bikes that can't be shifted and therefore large discounts required, maybe even more than you used to be able to get.

 

[Gary]

That wouldn't so much as be a sales bubble pop as it would just be getting back to normal TBF.
But don't forget MOAR people are cycling than ever so the demand for parts and servicing will still be there whether actual bike sales dip or not.
The UK Government has just announced new highway code rules to be introduced to make cycling and pedestrians safer and the push to get people riding bikes has never been greater.

 

[steve_sordy]

I see this alot when people are discussing price increases. But strangely you don't see people make the same remark when the toilet paper shelf at the store is empty.

Same situation, 'insufficient supply' but different outcomes: toilet paper prices remained the same, while bike prices increase. Note that people often refer to this as a 'law of supply and demand', but strangely they don't seem to mind that this law behaves rather like a drunken judge. States don't fix toilet paper prices, generally, so stores can raise those prices. But they don't.

Is it really supply and demand that determines price, but only with bikes and not toilet paper? Are you just saying that because it sounds right, but in reality, you don't know?

I believe that I understand your point, where is the evidence of a supply-demand curve? Is this just an academic construct suitable only for teaching at university? Or is it real. We have all seen what happened to the price of used bikes in the last year. And used cars are going up in price because the supply of new cars is down due to that semi-conductor factory that burned to the ground. We know for sure supply and demand are linked, but who knows what the actual "LAW" is? I doubt there is one like the sort of law you get in Physics or Engineering.

However the examples you draw on have different conditions. The toilet paper outage was not due to any reduction in supply, quite the opposite really. It was just panic buying, the retailers knew it and so did the manufacturers, as did most of the customers - but who wanted to be out of TP? That was no time to induce further chaos by increasing prices, although I'm sure some independents will have done so.

But the bike & components problem was both an increased demand from people suddenly spending more time at home and wanting to ride a bike, and reduced supply. The reduction is supply was two fold: one was a deliberate reduction in supply to avoid a forecast demand reduction due to Covid (boy, did they get that wrong!) and also outages caused by factory output reducing because people were ill or isolating.

Also, as @Gary intimated, bikes are complex items and with a complex and slow to react supply chain, toilet paper is none of those things.

Retail stocks of TP were back to normal pretty quickly, once folk had filled their bedrooms. But the bike and components situation is still poor. I broke my XT 12-speed mech today and the chain was not looking good either. At the trail centre there was a bike shop, so I asked for a Shimano XT 12-speed mech. I was told that they could not get any until January, but we have some SLX ones that have just come in. (Yes please!). Similar response about a 12-speed chain, he only had KMC, all sold out of the Shimano/SRAM ones. Same response from me. He solved my demand problem immediately with something that was good enough. I didn't wait to find out how much cheaper I could get my items on the internet. I wanted a solution now, not in two weeks or two months time, if that!