Focus Jam2 LTD Charging problem

[steve_sordy]

I had the same problem as the OP when charging and I put it down to the weather which was really cold at the time.. The spare battery, which had been brought into the warm, would charge ok but the bike battery which had been left in a cold garage would not . The charger would 'click off' after nine green led flashes. Bring the bike into the warm and after an hour it would charge as normal.

After today's ride in in a temperature of 10 degrees centigrade, the main battery was empty after 18 miles (I am addressing this in another post) yet charged normally.

I also find that when connecting the reserve battery during a ride it can take several attempts to get it to engage.

.............

@Peaky Rider that is a really useful and helpful post! As soon as I've written this reply, I will pop out to the garage and get the charger and have a go on the TEC pack that would not charge before. It has been in the house for a week, so it will be nice and warm.

Edit: The TEC pack battery that would not charge at 8degC is now happily receiving a charge at 21degC! So once again, I have to ask, is it the battery or the charger?

There is no lower operating temperature given for the battery in the accompanying manual, just to disconnect if the charger reaches 55-60degC. In the TEC manual, the stated allowable temperature range for charging the battery is 0-40degC.
Puzzled.

 

[highpeakrider]

So when you get back from a ride in near freezing conditions, will the battery take a recharge as soon as you get back or do you leave it in a warm room before you get around to plugging the charger in?

Rumour has it you should not change one after usage, I charge mine in the morning then ride when it’s charged, the TEC pack lives in the house.

 

[highpeakrider]

Crikey I have just got the Jam2 and it lives in my garage but I need to run down the battery when new as it says to do that in the manual is that the right thing to do?

I hope it will charge up ok when I have run it down and charge it for the first time!

@Andy A Mine lives in the garage, just change it in the morning before you ride and leave what’s left till next time you go out, if your having an early start do it the night before. I don’t give mine any special treatment and it’s fine.
I just use my TEC pack on the odd ride so it’s getting some use over the winter.

 

[highpeakrider]

@Peaky Rider that is a really useful and helpful post! As soon as I've written this reply, I will pop out to the garage and get the charger and have a go on the TEC pack that would not charge before. It has been in the house for a week, so it will be nice and warm.

Edit: The TEC pack battery that would not charge at 8degC is now happily receiving a charge at 21degC! So once again, I have to ask, is it the battery or the charger?

There is no lower operating temperature given for the battery in the accompanying manual, just to disconnect if the charger reaches 55-60degC. In the TEC manual, the stated allowable temperature range for charging the battery is 0-40degC.
Puzzled.

Really?

I’ve posted this before didn’t you read it?



DCW-03 lithium ion battery (optional external additional battery DCW-04)
Position
Down tube (completely integrated)
Nominal capacity
10.5 Ah
Power
378 Wh
Nominal voltage
36 V
Weight
2100 g
Charge time*
Approx. 3 hours
Charge cycles
1100
Cell
Li-ion
Permissible ambient temperature in operation
-10 to +40 °C
Permissible ambient temperature for charging
0 to 40 °C
Storage temperature
-10 to +50 °C
Recommended storage temperature
18 to 23 °C

 

[steve_sordy]

Really?

I’ve posted this before didn’t you read it?

........../QUOTE]

Obviously not, but don't be offended as it would have been an oversight by me. The first thing I do when I log in is to look at the messages under the bell icon. Then I read on and maybe react to that thread from that point onward. I have recently discovered that if the message takes me to a point that is past where I had previously read, then I could miss a message or sometimes several.

 

[steve_sordy]

Rumour has it you should not change one after usage, I charge mine in the morning then ride when it’s charged, the TEC pack lives in the house.

I think you meant to write "charge one" not "change one", if so....Interesting!
Does anyone else have a comment on that?

 

[BigFoot]

So Bigfoot, you are also concluding that low temperatures are the reason for the battery refusing to charge. I am yet to find any mention of this in the manuals.

I brought my bike and charger in last night 67F or 19.5C temperature in the house.
This morning I attempted to charge the battery , starting with this condition 1% Ebike battery on my Garman 1030, Shimano
EW-EN100

 

[BigFoot]

The charger would do the eight or nine green flashes and then shut off , I repeated unplugging the charger all sorts of different ways and it kept on shutting off , there was no current (AMPS)being drawn through the AC input voltage , so I figured that the battery voltage must be too low as others have stated , so I ended up pulling the AC power cord high voltage from the charger every nine flashes waiting for a few seconds and plugging it back in after 10 cycles of this the charger started drawing 175 W and started charging properly 175 W Equals approximately 4 Amps at 42 V DC input voltage to battery, see picture attached . I also took the temperature of the charger about two hours into the charge and you can see it’s approximately 150°F or 65°C
This indicates there are losses at the charger and the battery. Losses are generally 25 to 50% according to this thread .
How much energy is lost when charging a battery?
After the charge was finished I had used 400 Watthours of AC power from my house . See picture attached . I don’t understand why the numbers are so low if I have a 376 W hour battery to charge I would think it would’ve taken a couple hundred more watt hours ?

This all comes back to Steve Sordy earlier suggestion that the trickle charger is not working. The manual states see picture attached ,a 500 mA charge will occur if the battery has low voltage.
500 mA is .5 A ,my charger jumped directly to 4 Amps, my charger is broken?
The math breakdown as follows :
175watts divided by 42 DC volts equals
4 Amps, a A 500 mA trickle charge would equal 22Watts on my meter , and that never happened .
Steve let us know how your new charger works when will you receive it ?

 

[BigFoot]

Wow Bigfoot, you've certainly put some effort and expense into slimming your bike down. You're a bit of a weight weeny which is quite a mission with an e-bike.
I have replaced the standard rear 2.8 on my Jam with a 2.6 Nobby Nick and also run another rear wheel with a 2.25 Nobby Nick. I use Racing Ralphs on my normal bikes in the summer but they would be useless on my bike this time of year.

I am also old school and ride with SPD pedals and am not a 'lazy' e-bike rider.

All that said, I still cannot understand why my mate is getting what equates to twice the battery range on his Giant. I'm lucky to get 20 miles per battery and he is easily getting 50.

Peaky can you do 3 test for us ?

Test#1
Switch bikes with your 50 mile friend if these bikes are different sizes please remove dropper post install long 400 mm standard post and high-rise stem , Do a ride together and find out how far the bikes go with different riders on them. This will remove how strong each rider is, in case your friend is superhuman and that’s why he’s getting 50 miles.

Test #2 do the same test but switch wheel sets although you may have different diameter wheels At least try to switch the back wheel and find out how far each bike goes?

Test# 3
Go on Amazon and buy this Power meter .
FLOUREON Power Meter UK Energy Monitor AC 230V~250V Power Consumption Meter .
There seem to range in price from nine to fifteen £


Charge your bike when the batteries fully discharged and record how many watts your charger uses ,then charge your friends 50 mile bike when his battery is fully discharged and record how much power was used to charge it ?

Send me a PM I would be glad to discuss on the phone I would like to solve these problems .

PS: this is what specialized says how far you can go on a battery with a 2.6. 29er tires

Turbo Range Calculator 700watt hour
Turbo Calculator App | Specialized.com

 

[highpeakrider]

It would also be interesting to know what typical cadence is being used while climbing.
High and assisting the motor, or low and making it work.
18 miles of hard riding i would say is average on a Jam2, better if using Eco most of the time.
I did 18 miles and 2500 feet yesterday all trail and nearly a full battery riding hard.
But i've also done 12 miles and 1300 feet on 2 bars but used eco for all the ride and it was a laid back cruise.
You can see big range swings depending on how you ride.

 

[highpeakrider]

Would be nice if we could get together and compare Focus with Focus.

 

[Andy A]

Also the higher gear you are in the more power it uses as when I was looking at the display yesterday if I dropped it to lower gears the power use went down so there are a lot of factors involved here

 

[highpeakrider]

I tend to use the same gear i would on my non ebike when climbing if i'm trying to get an extra bit of range, a short blast is a different thing, and i like to ride them fast and hard to maximise battery usage so it gets a good charge rather than a top up.

 

[Peaky Rider]

Peaky can you do 3 test for us ?

Test#1
Switch bikes with your 50 mile friend if these bikes are different sizes please remove dropper post install long 400 mm standard post and high-rise stem , Do a ride together and find out how far the bikes go with different riders on them. This will remove how strong each rider is, in case your friend is superhuman and that’s why he’s getting 50 miles.

Test #2 do the same test but switch wheel sets although you may have different diameter wheels At least try to switch the back wheel and find out how far each bike goes?

Test# 3
Go on Amazon and buy this Power meter .
FLOUREON Power Meter UK Energy Monitor AC 230V~250V Power Consumption Meter .
There seem to range in price from nine to fifteen £


Charge your bike when the batteries fully discharged and record how many watts your charger uses ,then charge your friends 50 mile bike when his battery is fully discharged and record how much power was used to charge it ?

Send me a PM I would be glad to discuss on the phone I would like to solve these problems .

PS: this is what specialized says how far you can go on a battery with a 2.6. 29er tires

Turbo Range Calculator 700watt hour
Turbo Calculator App | Specialized.com

OMG Bigfoot, that's far too studious for my poor old addled brain to cope with but maybe the following suggests there is nothing wrong with my charger.

My TEC battery which was empty but had been indoors while I brushed and cleaned my bike, charged without issue, my bike which had been left in a shed would not take a charge until it had been indoors for about an hour

 

[BigFoot]

OMG Bigfoot, that's far too studious for my poor old addled brain to cope with but maybe the following suggests there is nothing wrong with my charger.

My TEC battery which was empty but had been indoors while I brushed and cleaned my bike, charged without issue, my bike which had been left in a shed would not take a charge until it had been indoors for about an hour

It sounds like the 500 mA trickle charger is broken on everyone’s charger, that’s what supposed to charge it when the batteries cold and the voltage is low.
Will have to see what Steve reports when he gets his new charger .

 

[Peaky Rider]

Would be nice if we could get together and compare Focus with Focus.

From your previous post HPR it would seem that you and I are getting similar ranges, what is confusing me is "why is my mate getting more than twice as many miles as we are."

I can guarantee you that all the variables between him and me are pretty similar.

 

[highpeakrider]

What bike was he on?
I’m guessing bigger battery , any difference in gearing that gives him an advantage on the hills, I’m only on the stock 9 speed sunrace cassette.
Which I find fine on the hills, not sure if I would get more miles on the climbs with something like a 12 speed eagle.
But with my riding style 18 to low 20 s is my average. I can get more if I ride with someone on a normal MTB but it seems dead slow.

I’ll try the goyt valley climb and Derbyshire bridge route on eco and see how far I can get in eco.

 

[highpeakrider]

Not sure what @steve_sordy has but mine is not the same charger and i've never had any issues in the cold, always charge in the garage and have charged from empty on my main and TEC pack.

I assume these are both 2019 bikes, mine is 2018.

 

[steve_sordy]

I t has just occurred to me that on this point about the charger and/or battery being below 10degC, that when the frame battery would not charge, I tried charging the half-depleted TEC pack battery and that charged just fine. So temperature wasn't the issue then. Both batteries would have been at about 5-7 degC.

Later on, an almost depleted TEC battery (one bar on red) would not charge until it was brought into a warm room. So is temperature important or not? I believe that it is important only in how the temperature affects the battery voltage.

So I'm sticking with a faulty trickle charger, witness, the successful attempt after ten goes to get the charger working. (By Peaky Rider I believe, not sure).

 

[steve_sordy]

Not sure what @steve_sordy has but mine is not the same charger and i've never had any issues in the cold, always charge in the garage and have charged from empty on my main and TEC pack.

I assume these are both 2019 bikes, mine is 2018.

View attachment 10725

Yep, different. Mine is same make but model number ending in 4500 not 4000. My charger is a 4.5A current, yours is 4.0A. Yours was the one I used at Rutland Cycles that worked just fine on a cold bike.

 

[BigFoot]

Yep, different. Mine is same make but model number ending in 4500 not 4000. My charger is a 4.5A current, yours is 4.0A. Yours was the one I used at Rutland Cycles that worked just fine on a cold bike.

Steve I agree with you I have the same charger that you have that ends in 4500 that will not trickle charge as I’ve tested it on a fully depleted battery and the only way I was able to get it to charge was plugging and unplugging the AC power source from the charger at least 10 times , it finally started charging but it went to a full on fast charge it never went to the small trickle charge .
see picture attached

 

[Peaky Rider]

Steve I agree with you I have the same charger that you have that ends in 4500 that will not trickle charge as I’ve tested it on a fully depleted battery and the only way I was able to get it to charge was plugging and unplugging the AC power source from the charger at least 10 times , it finally started charging but it went to a full on fast charge it never went to the small trickle charge .
see picture attached

View attachment 10729

This is my charger. Guess it's a later and "improved" model.

Are you saying they could be faulty hence the charging problem.

Will be running one of my batteries down (completely) this Thursday so will see how it goes.

 

[BigFoot]

What charger does everyone have ?

Is anyone else running the 4.5 amp charger Model BSC4200-4500 and can successfully charge batteries that are 10% and below ?

 

[Peaky Rider]

What charger does everyone have ?

Is anyone else running the 4.5 amp charger Model BSC4200-4500 and can successfully charge batteries that are 10% and below ?

I am using this unit and have had problems charging an empty battery, problems which I put down to the extreme cold.

Off out this Thursday, when forecast is relatively mild, so plan to intentionally drain TEC battery and see what happens. Plan to do the same to main battery on Saturday.

 

[Peaky Rider]

I am using this unit and have had problems charging an empty battery, problems which I put down to the extreme cold.

Off out this Thursday, when forecast is relatively mild, so plan to intentionally drain TEC battery and see what happens. Plan to do the same to main battery on Saturday.

So, on Thursday ran the TEC pack battery down to two miles trail range left. Battery took charge with no problems.
Today, main battery totally exhausted, took charge, again with no problems.
This has convinced me that the problems I experienced recharging the main battery in January were caused entirely by the low temperatures.
The charger is fine.

 

[BigFoot]

So, on Thursday ran the TEC pack battery down to two miles trail range left. Battery took charge with no problems.
Today, main battery totally exhausted, took charge, again with no problems.
This has convinced me that the problems I experienced recharging the main battery in January were caused entirely by the low temperatures.
The charger is fine.

Thanks

 

[steve_sordy]

So, on Thursday ran the TEC pack battery down to two miles trail range left. Battery took charge with no problems.
Today, main battery totally exhausted, took charge, again with no problems.
This has convinced me that the problems I experienced recharging the main battery in January were caused entirely by the low temperatures.
The charger is fine.

If it is low temperature, then that is a good learning point. But the charger and battery system is supposed to work down to 0degC and it clearly is having problems in warmer temperatures than that. My garage has not dropped below 4degC this winter and was at 6-8degC when I was having problems charging. The replacement charger will arrive on Mon, but if it is temperatures between zero and 10degC that cause the problem, then I guess I wont find out until next winter.

 

[Peaky Rider]

If it is low temperature, then that is a good learning point. But the charger and battery system is supposed to work down to 0degC and it clearly is having problems in warmer temperatures than that. My garage has not dropped below 4degC this winter and was at 6-8degC when I was having problems charging. The replacement charger will arrive on Mon, but if it is temperatures between zero and 10degC that cause the problem, then I guess I wont find out until next winter.

I don't know how wind chill affects chemical/electrical reactions so my none expertise logic may be totally flawed but, when I had problems I was riding in ambient temperatures of -3 to +3 degrees.

But there is also the self induced wind chill of a bike travelling at any thing up to 35 mph and a battery sat in a highly temperature conductive metal tube, who knows what the actual temperature being endured by the battery was.

All I know is that I've had no problems recharging since the weather turned milder and when, in January, I brought my cold bike into a warm house the battery accepted a charge after an hour or so.

If you are having problems now, then obviously it is something serious.

 

[steve_sordy]

I used the replacement charger last week when the UK had record warm weather for February. I charged when the battery had three bars. No problems!

Today, with the battery showing two bars left and a garage temperature of 14degC and a bike temperature of 11degC, it would not charge! Same symptoms, flashing green light for 15 secs or so then it turns itself off. I followed the advice of another member on here and tried switching the charger on and off. For him it worked after 10 times, but I gave up after 20 times. Tonight I'll bring the bike into the house and let it warm up before trying again in the morning.

What a pain!

JE James the supplier accept what I say and report that I am being very methodical and will be enormously helpful, but there is nothing they can do until I return the bike and chargers to them for diagnostics. They can then take it up with Focus. Its going in on Tuesday for its first free service anyway.

 

[Gasser]

When I was having my problems with the bike not switching on, I also experienced the same charging issues above, since the loom was changed no charging problems, can't guarantee these are related, just saying. Oh on one occasion it wouldn't accept charge I pulled the mains lead out of the charger and reconnected 180 degrees round if that makes sense, and it worked, go figure, didn't sense at the time but definitely started charging????