EMTBs aren't permitted?

[gill22]

I'm curious about the concerns that are prompting some areas to prohibit Ebikes from designated trails or parks. I want to make sure I'm doing a good job representing the EMTB. I don't believe I'm causing any problems for regular MTB riders or the trail. It's possible that I'm overlooking something. If you know what the cited difficulties are, please let us know. My purpose is to figure out who the EMTB opponents are. I'm all about the bike and not being a jerk.
192.168.8.1
192.168.100.1
router-net.com/pt

 

[The Hodge]

No problems in the UK..emtb's can go anywhere mtb's are legally allowed ..
I'm not sure which regions of the world you are talking about but noticed you are located in India ...

 

[JoeBlow]

In the UK some bike parks charge more for EMTB's on the basis that they are more damaging to the trails. At least that is my understanding. This may have an element of truth to it but is, IMO, rather simplistic. It could equally be argued that an aggressive rider on an analogue bike damages the trail more than a fairly passive rider on an EMTB for example.

Al

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I didn't know some bike parks in the UK charge more to use your emtb!!
Isn't that discrimination?

 

[Tubby G]

I didn't know some bike parks in the UK charge more to use your emtb!!
Isn't that discrimination?

Neither did I. Surely by that logic they’d need to weigh in the riders too and charge more for heavier riders. It’d cost me a fortune haha

 

[JoeBlow]

I didn't know some bike parks in the UK charge more to use your emtb!!
Isn't that discrimination?

I took issue with Bike Park Wales over this. Even if the additional wear and tear argument is valid I pointed out that at 72 years old EMTB or not I was very unlikely to be contributing to this and they may wish to consider some concessionary terms for older riders.

If I recall, last year it was £3.00 more for an EMTB.

 

[MrPeaski]

Ebike pedal passes at BPW are now an extra £5 over the standard ones. £14 standard, £19 Ebike

Uplift passes are the same price for either type, £41 Mon-Thurs, £44 Friday, £48 6 hour weekends and bank holoidays

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I took issue with Bike Park Wales over this. Even if the additional wear and tear argument is valid I pointed out that at 72 years old EMTB or not I was very unlikely to be contributing to this and they may wish to consider some concessionary terms for older riders.

If I recall, last year it was £3.00 more for an EMTB.

Interesting.
Whilst I'll gladly admit that it has been a while since I've been to a 'proper' bike park, I've only ever taken regular bikes and never the eebs because of shuttles.
Oddly enough, the discussion about emtb's destroying trails is starting to surface again (especially in my neck of the woods) due to features of trails becoming unridable.
I will admit that high-powered ebikes like Stealth Bombers, Enduros 'could' tarnish trails for obvious reasons. But revised data and testing is being sought in an effort to increase emtb usage and approval. Notwithstanding, I'm more than happy to help trail builders when necessary.
I'll look into this a bit more. Doesn't hurt to have a solicitor delving into a raised issue ?

 

[Mteam]

I took issue with Bike Park Wales over this. Even if the additional wear and tear argument is valid I pointed out that at 72 years old EMTB or not I was very unlikely to be contributing to this and they may wish to consider some concessionary terms for older riders.

If I recall, last year it was £3.00 more for an EMTB.

I dont think that BPW argument is that an ebike causes more wear than a normal bike per metre of trail ridden , but that an ebike will typically get more runs in than a normal bike (that isnt using the uplift) , so you need to pay a little extra for those additional runs that you will get.

ie if a normal bike rider without using the uplift rides 10 miles of trails in an average day (I've no idea if this is an accurate distance) , then an ebike rider might cover 20 or 30 miles of trails.

Seems fair to me.....

 

[JoeBlow]

I dont think that BPW argument is that an ebike causes more wear than a normal bike per metre of trail ridden , but that an ebike will typically get more runs in than a normal bike (that isnt using the uplift) , so you need to pay a little extra for those additional runs that you will get.

ie if a normal bike rider without using the uplift rides 10 miles of trails in an average day (I've no idea if this is an accurate distance) , then an ebike rider might cover 20 or 30 miles of trails.

Seems fair to me.....

I would argue that a fit 20 year old using the uplift service will get more runs in than me, at 73, on an EMTB. A 20 stone rider will cause more wear than a 10 stone rider. An aggressive hard core down hill rider will cause more wear than a passive less competent rider etc. etc. why are additional charges not applied for these variables if trail wear and tear is the real concern? Why not charge per number of runs instead of making me pay more for less? I do concede that these would be more difficult to administer but in my case a concessionary rate would seem to be fairer and easy to apply. It would be interesting to know if a 20 year old on an EMTB gets in more rides than a 20 year old using the uplift. I suspect the answer is probably not so clear cut.

Lets get real. The increased charge is to compensate for the fact that EMTB's are depriving the uplift service of income.

 

[Mteam]

Lets get real. The increased charge is to compensate for the fact that EMTB's are depriving the uplift service of income. I would also argue that a fit 20 year old using the uplift service will get more runs in than me, at 73, on an EMTB. A 20 stone rider will cause more wear than a 10 stone rider. An aggressive hard core down hill rider will cause more wear than a passive less competent rider etc. etc. why are additional charges not applied for these variables if trail wear and tear is the real concern?

I said its not about more wear - it about a typical ebiker being able to get more runs in than a typical normal bike rider.

Its also not possible/practical to have a bespoke charge for every different use case, they set their pricing as they see fit, and at a level that the market will bear ,and you either pay it or you dont.

I dont really think that someone with a £4k ebike ,regardless of their age , should be moaning about paying 3 quid extra to use some great trails. Its like the people that park on the access road at llandegla to avoid paying the 5 quid parking charge.....

Anyway - this is going off topic now, so I'm out .

 

[EuanS2]

Glencoe are currently looking into the possibility of making ebikes pay more at the moment. Attached is a post that they put out on Facebook last week.

 

[JoeBlow]

I said its not about more wear - it about a typical ebiker being able to get more runs in than a typical normal bike rider.

Its also not possible/practical to have a bespoke charge for every different use case, they set their pricing as they see fit, and at a level that the market will bear ,and you either pay it or you dont.

I dont really think that someone with a £4k ebike ,regardless of their age , should be moaning about paying 3 quid extra to use some great trails. Its like the people that park on the access road at llandegla to avoid paying the 5 quid parking charge.....

Anyway - this is going off topic now, so I'm out .

I conceded those facts so they are not up for debate. I agree if I don't like the service I am free to not use it. Highlighting what I see as unfair is NOT moaning and making it an issue of ability to pay takes matters into a whole new contentious area so perhaps it's just as well you are dropping out of the conversation. Such is the way of a forum. Topics drift. I don't see that as a problem as long as they are not totally hijacked. I believe in contributing so I will assume that your insinuation about not paying is a general comment and not aimed at me personally as was the "4K ebike" jibe. I cycle a lot at FOD. I pay for an annual parking pass and contributed last year to the trail fund and will do again this year.

 

[steve_sordy]

I'm curious about the concerns that are prompting some areas to prohibit Ebikes from designated trails or parks. I want to make sure I'm doing a good job representing the EMTB. I don't believe I'm causing any problems for regular MTB riders or the trail. It's possible that I'm overlooking something. If you know what the cited difficulties are, please let us know. My purpose is to figure out who the EMTB opponents are. I'm all about the bike and not being a jerk.

I believe that most of the serious objections occur in the USA. The objections are visceral where they occur, but are not 100% across the USA. That opinion is based upon intermittent reading of American articles on the subject. Do your own research to be sure.

The objections fall into a few principal categories.
1) an ebike is a motorbike, and motorised vehicles are banned.
2) an ebike is heavier and therefore causes more damage.
3) and ebike is faster and therefore causes more damage.

You don't have to think about these for long to realise that they are not logically based arguments for banning ebikes from trails.
My most visited local trail in the UK allows horses to ride them! Yes, I know, astonishing! Not only is it unsafe for horse and rider, but the biker too. In addition, you only have to glance at the trail to see how much damage the steel shoes of the horse damage the trail compared to the bike tyres

 

[JoeBlow]

In addition, you only have to glance at the trail to see how much damage the steel shoes of the horse damage the trail compared to the bike tyres

Agreed. There are a couple of bridleways out of my village to the highest point in the Cotswolds. The only time they are unrideable is when the horses have been up and down following rain. Bikes have an impact but minimal by comparison.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So I use Gaz's vid (Adventure Trails MTB) as an example.
He is a fellow rider who I do look up to and follow.

Like myself, we pride ourselves in ensuring a positive role model in the advocacy of the sport to eliminate any negative stigmas derived by mis-interpretation or, assumptions.

Anywho, in our neck of the woods, eebs are being targeted as culprits for destroying trails. Ignoring the fact that it's primarily dur to a lack of trail maintenance, it has given emtb haters scope to jump on the 'ebikes destroy trails' bandwagon.

It is to this arbitrary fact, I'll always strive to show the positive attributes of what emtb's bring to the table (or trails as it we're).

In addition, I am liaising with my local council and national trust to contribute towards trail maintenance for all riders. Indeed, no ones views should be disregarded or deemed inappropriate. Moreso, an active dialogue to ensure that all views are factored should be encouraged ?

 

[Planemo]

I see both sides of the argument from JoeBlow (which appears to be a principle/fairness point) and Mteams comment (which appears to be more about reasoning/low cost isn't an issue).

I am indeed a man of principle so I do agree on that front. On the other, I also pick my fights and where I wish to spend my time and effort. Because of that, an extra £5 a day wouldn't really bother me. I'm not saying I agree with it but it is what it is. If they were charging an extra £30+ for eebs I might very well think differently but even then as Mteam says, I don't have to go. I am a guest after all.

The risk of raising an issue like this is that to avoid 'fairness' issues, BPW simply up the price by £5 across the board. Thats why I pick my fights sometimes.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

True that @Planemo , anyone who rides at a bike park is a guest. Nicely put?.

I'd rather not concentrate primarily on bike parks as the consences behind riding a bike park is that you are reaping the benefits of riding maintained trail. As a result, it is logical that any guest should pay/contribute.

Moreso, public areas which 'one would assume' is deemed appropriate for all riders and eebs is now becoming throwned upon by the assumption that ebikes are mini dirt bikes.

 

[The Hodge]

True that @Planemo , anyone who rides at a bike park is a guest. Nicely put?.

I'd rather not concentrate primarily on bike parks as the consences behind riding a bike park is that you are reaping the benefits of riding maintained trail. As a result, it is logical that any guest should pay/contribute.

Moreso, public areas which 'one would assume' is deemed appropriate for all riders and eebs is now becoming throwned upon by the assumption that ebikes are mini dirt bikes.

Not in this part of the world ..never had a problem

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Not in this part of the world ..never had a problem

You're lucky Hodge. I pray your local council/national trusts turn a blind eye to emtb use.
Although, the Black Country (Sandwell, Dudley, Wolverhampton, Walsall) can be somewhat backwards at times.

 

[JoeBlow]

Yes I was voicing a principle/fairness point. Indeed when I put my arguments to BPW last year they conceded that I had some valid points and would consider their pricing policy especially with regard to senior riders. I suspect Covid may have put paid to that.

 

[Mteam]

You're lucky Hodge. I pray your local council/national trusts turn a blind eye to emtb use.
Although, the Black Country (Sandwell, Dudley, Wolverhampton, Walsall) can be somewhat backwards at times.

The councils etc cant do anything to block solely ebikes from bridleways. by their very definition (as pedal cycles in the eyes of the law) ebikes are allowed on bridleways, it would take a national reclassification to change the status of an ebike from a pedal cycle to something else to block them from bridleways.

Councils could reclassify a bridleway to be a footpath, but then that would ban all regular bikes too, not just ebikes.

Private land like the National trust owned areas is a different matter - unless the specific path in question is also a bridleway as well as being on private land.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

The councils etc cant do anything to block solely ebikes from bridleways. by their very definition (as pedal cycles in the eyes of the law) ebikes are allowed on bridleways, it would take a national reclassification to change the status of an ebike from a pedal cycle to something else to block them from bridleways.

Councils could reclassify a bridleway to be a footpath, but then that would ban all regular bikes too, not just ebikes.

Private land like the National trust owned areas is a different matter - unless the specific path in question is also a bridleway as well as being on private land.

Agreed. Bridelway paths and repurposed railway lines which serve the purpose for cycling network hubs probably won't be affected (fingers crossed).

Some woodland/forest areas which falls under a respective council/borough are being targeted in my neck of the woods. Granted, no signs have been put up saying 'no ebikes' have surfaced but some are conscious of this.
It doesn't help matters when certain councils/boroughs are quick to throw in our face 'illegal trail builds' from back in the day which we've man'd up and taken responsibility over. However like most things, opinions and views can change. One example which I'm constantly reminded of was the amount of taggings (graffiti) in locations. Nowadays, councils can give permission and will sometimes invite artists to make epic murals (not trying to go off topic).

Anywho, I'm tempted to make a vid which specifically draws the difference between a standard emtb (lightweight and fullfat), high powered emtbs (Good thing I've got my Bafang Ultra fleet) and ebikes (Stealth Bomber or a Sur on).

Any volunteers who wants to give me a hand ?

 

[Mteam]

Anywho, I'm tempted to make a vid which specifically draws the difference between a standard ebike (lightweight and fullfat), high powered emtbs electric motorbike (Good thing I've got my Bafang Ultra fleet) and ebikes electric motorbikes (Stealth Bomber or a Sur on).

Fixed it for you

 

[Old Mike]

I dont think that BPW argument is that an ebike causes more wear than a normal bike per metre of trail ridden , but that an ebike will typically get more runs in than a normal bike (that isnt using the uplift) , so you need to pay a little extra for those additional runs that you will get.

ie if a normal bike rider without using the uplift rides 10 miles of trails in an average day (I've no idea if this is an accurate distance) , then an ebike rider might cover 20 or 30 miles of trails.

Seems fair to me.....

It seems fair to me as well and i take my emtb to Bike Park Wales.

 

[Canmore TLCC 29]

I'm curious about the concerns that are prompting some areas to prohibit Ebikes from designated trails or parks. I want to make sure I'm doing a good job representing the EMTB. I don't believe I'm causing any problems for regular MTB riders or the trail. It's possible that I'm overlooking something. If you know what the cited difficulties are, please let us know. My purpose is to figure out who the EMTB opponents are. I'm all about the bike and not being a jerk.

I think traditional mountain bike riders are just being snobs. If you are young and work hard at staying fit, having someone who is perhaps older, or just in questionable physical shape riding the same trails as you would raise your hackles. When these younger riders age like many of us already have, they will wish they could return to their favorite trails on an eMTB. SO, predictably, a critical mass of future older riders will demand eMTB's are permitted on all trails. Sadly for many of us who have one or two decades of riding left in us, we are denied what some may consider a certainty for all riders in the future. I fail to see how eMTB's cause more damage to trails in areas where riders are trucked to the top, and blast down the hills with a full tank of energy. The beauty of eMTB's is being able to enjoy climbing hills with support, and reading the top without being exhausted. Who wouldn't prefer that to chucking your bike in the back of a pickup and squeezing into a cab for a dusty ride uphill?

I live in the Canadian Rockies and so far, Banff National Park has banned all motorized vehicles including e-Bikes. Alberta has as well at the Nordic center in Canmore. There are only a few trails that permit e-bikes. And they are not the sort of trails our eMTB's were designed for. The e-bike permitted trails are typically flat, gravel and asphalt paved paths. SO, do you take a chance and ride on the trails that our bikes are banned from? The fine in the Banff National park is steep including a mandatory appearance before a judge.

 

[Acousticmood]

I believe that most of the serious objections occur in the USA. The objections are visceral where they occur, but are not 100% across the USA. That opinion is based upon intermittent reading of American articles on the subject. Do your own research to be sure.

The objections fall into a few principal categories.
1) an ebike is a motorbike, and motorised vehicles are banned.
2) an ebike is heavier and therefore causes more damage.
3) and ebike is faster and therefore causes more damage.

You don't have to think about these for long to realise that they are not logically based arguments for banning ebikes from trails.

yep yep yep. In America people are always searching to find the next thing to ban. Perhaps it’s a condition that flows from their belief in the Nanny state. I find it disgusting, but then I’m a boomer patriot.

 

[flash]

I am so glad we don't have to put up with the bullshit you guys are subjected to here.......

Gordon

 

[johnf0246]

yep yep yep. In America people are always searching to find the next thing to ban. Perhaps it’s a condition that flows from their belief in the Nanny state. I find it disgusting, but then I’m a boomer patriot.

Accoustic: In the US there are several other reasons why some landmangers don’t allow Ebikes on the non-motorized trails they manage. One is that Ebikes are motorized and therefore until the landmanager redefines Ebikes as a special exception and they aren’t considered motorized anymore the non-motorized trails will continue to be banned from Ebike usage.

Recently the BLM who manages millions of acres of public land has redefined Class 1, 2 & 3 Ebikes with motors less than 750 watts to be bicycles and allowed to use BLM non-motorized trails in the US. Going forward new BLM non-motorized trails that are earmarked for mountain bike use will also be evaluated for Ebike use.

As far as the original post of this tread goes the numerous user groups that don’t want Ebikes on BLM trails cite: user conflicts and animal displacement as their main reasons why Ebikes should not have been allowed to be able to use BLM non-motorized trails.

Fortunately the BLM has decided to ignore the user groups that make: user conflicts and animal displacement arguments as reasons why Ebikes can’t be allowed on BLM non-motorized trails. If you want to see what those user groups wrote the BLM take some time and read their 39 page rebuttal:

http://www.bcha.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/TWS-BCHA-et-al-Comments-on-BLM-Ebike-Rulemaking.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25fakvNC0JZxmIVa3PhUxgm2ArUtzRG43QwpMo4AZSnKhEquuZc9Tr_Dk

 

[Canmore TLCC 29]

Accoustic: In the US there are several other reasons why some landmangers don’t allow Ebikes on the non-motorized trails they manage. One is that Ebikes are motorized and therefore until the landmanager redefines Ebikes as a special exception and they aren’t considered motorized anymore the non-motorized trails will continue to be banned from Ebike usage.

Recently the BLM who manages millions of acres of public land has redefined Class 1, 2 & 3 Ebikes with motors less than 750 watts to be bicycles and allowed to use BLM non-motorized trails in the US. Going forward new BLM non-motorized trails that are earmarked for mountain bike use will also be evaluated for Ebike use.

As far as the original post of this tread goes the numerous user groups that don’t want Ebikes on BLM trails cite: user conflicts and animal displacement as their main reasons why Ebikes should not have been allowed to be able to use BLM non-motorized trails.

Fortunately the BLM has decided to ignore the user groups that make: user conflicts and animal displacement arguments as reasons why Ebikes can’t be allowed on BLM non-motorized trails. If you want to see what those user groups wrote the BLM take some time and read their 39 page rebuttal:

http://www.bcha.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/TWS-BCHA-et-al-Comments-on-BLM-Ebike-Rulemaking.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25fakvNC0JZxmIVa3PhUxgm2ArUtzRG43QwpMo4AZSnKhEquuZc9Tr_Dk

Thanks for the update. How about US National Parks?