deristriction worry

[robert]

will there be anyone to turn to when bike shops start checking for deristriction ? iv heard mechanics are being told to check for deristriction on every bike they work on iv used the badass box just wondering if theyl see that on diagnostics ?

 

[Mteam]

The bosch dealer who updated my firmware for me reckoned he could tell by using the bosch diagnostic software whether a bike had been deristricted or not.

I'm sceptical that he can tell, but who knows.

 

[R120]

I believe they can tell if they know what they are looking for on the Bosch diagnostics - there was a thread a while back about how it was part of the training on the system, how to identify if a bike had been deresticted.

 

[maynard]

Deny deny deny.

 

[Pdoz]

I was accused of having derestriced my giant near the 2 year mark because average speed / % battery usage etc didn't add up. I was innocent, and able to pount towards factors in my usage to explain it - eg I regularly towed / pushed my kids up hills +/- a high % of the rest of my usage was in eco or off mode. The dealer argued VERY hard over the phone but successfully advocated for me , but it was a tense phone call ( a warranty motor was at stake)

My instinct is they can suspect derestriction, but it'd be hard to prove.

 

[Planemo]

I was accused of having derestriced my giant near the 2 year mark because average speed / % battery usage etc didn't add up. I was innocent, and able to pount towards factors in my usage to explain it - eg I regularly towed / pushed my kids up hills +/- a high % of the rest of my usage was in eco or off mode. The dealer argued VERY hard over the phone but successfully advocated for me , but it was a tense phone call ( a warranty motor was at stake)

My instinct is they can suspect derestriction, but it'd be hard to prove.

Wow, so a dealer CAN suspect of derestriction, I didn't know that. Like you say, hard to prove though if you have a good story on hand.

If someone with a derestricted bike didn't know the factors around how the suspicion was formed, they would have a pretty difficult time trying to explain it away, so cheers for that (I'm still restricted though atm). I suddenly suspect I have a dual kiddie trailer in my shed

 

[Mteam]

I havent derestricted either , but I have on occasion pushed a mate uphill on his normal bike. Wonder if that sort of use looks suspicious?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I have on occasion pushed a mate uphill on his normal bike. Wonder if that sort of use looks suspicious?

I guess it depends where your hands are.

 

[Mteam]

I guess it depends where your hands are.

on his fanny(pack)

 

[Konanige]

I would imagine its fairly easy to find out if its been derestricted, most systems record speed and distance travelled at all times, so if you ride over the limit a lot its gonna notice!

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I would imagine its fairly easy to find out if its been derestricted, most systems record speed and distance travelled at all times, so if you ride over the limit a lot its gonna notice!

Not if you only ride uplift days!?

 

[Planemo]

Not if you only ride uplift days!?

In that circumstance I guess there will very little crank rotation to go with it though so it wouldn't ping up as suspicion.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

In that circumstance I guess there will very little crank rotation to go with it though so it wouldn't ping up as suspicion.

not if you are going really fast down hill

it’s agood point to be fair, but do they record that much data? I never give it much thought.

 

[Mteam]

I would imagine its fairly easy to find out if its been derestricted, most systems record speed and distance travelled at all times, so if you ride over the limit a lot its gonna notice!

Thats the thing though, these speedboxes modify the speed signal, so speed (and therefore diatance) looks lower than it really is. So looking at a log of speed and distance it will look normal, but will be using more battery for a given mile than would be considered normal. So I suspect they do look at kW per mile or some similar metric to determine derestriction or not.

 

[Planemo]

not if you are going really fast down hill

it’s agood point to be fair, but do they record that much data? I never give it much thought.

I suspect that most of the main parameters are recorded (speed, crank rotations, battery usage, cadence, torque input, torque output and ride mode). Probably for a set amount of time (last 28 days or whatever).

Something as small as the chip on a SIM card stores driver activities (driving/breaks/sleep/other work/availability) for every minute for the last 28 days on a tacho card so I don't think it would be too tricky.

 

[Planemo]

Thats the thing though, these speedboxes modify the speed signal, so speed (and therefore diatance) looks lower than it really is. So looking at a log of speed and distance it will look normal, but will be using more battery for a given mile than would be considered normal. So I suspect they do look at kW per mile or some similar metric to determine derestriction or not.

Yeah so you just need to be able to explain an unusual amount of regular load on the bike. Towing kids sounds like a great example, or the fact you always go up mountains but get a lift down

 

[Mteam]

Yeah so you just need to be able to explain an unusual amount of regular load on the bike. Towing kids sounds like a great example, or the fact you always go up mountains but get a lift down

Or go to the bike shop wearing a fat suit, maybe the avg ebiker doesn't need a fat suit?

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I suspect that most of the main parameters are recorded (speed, crank rotations, battery usage, cadence, torque input, torque output and ride mode). Probably for a set amount of time (last 28 days or whatever).

Something as small as the chip on a SIM card stores driver activities (driving/breaks/sleep/other work/availability) for every minute for the last 28 days on a tacho card so I don't think it would be too tricky.

I understand that mate from the trackers i run in vans etc, just didn't know if the ebikes had that capabilities or if indeed anyone actually really cared? Although if it came down to warranty claims then you cant blame the shops being instructed to challenge things if people have messed about with the bikes.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Yeah so you just need to be able to explain an unusual amount of regular load on the bike. Towing kids sounds like a great example, or the fact you always go up mountains but get a lift down

Down lift days

 

[Pdoz]

For clarity, the data on my giant showed an average speed over 2500 km of 15 kph and energy ysage about twice what would be normally expected - so the distributor decided that meant I was using a badass device ( that only registers every second wheel rotation) .

They ignored a max speed of 75 kph ( that'd be 150 with a badass....I'm not THAT good...) , and even when it was pointed out that over 75% of usage was in off or eco ( tuned down to about 75% assistance) , they still argued. At which point I confessed to towing the kids back up hill ( probably 30% of my use was effectively grinding back uphill with a bike in tow)

Now, I also suspect there was a speed sensor issue , intermittently not detecting wheel rotations so reading even lower speeds . My power was cutting in / out AND , I could sit at 27.5 then suddenly get full torque, jump to about 35 then back under 20.....and I was chewing through running gear a lot quicker than the km reading suggested . So that's another possible explanation if data doesn't align ....

 

[1Squadr0n]

I've been ferrying my almost 4yr old around a lot the last month or so, using a 'Kids Ride Shotgun' seat. Which is amazing by the way.

I already got some funny looks and comments when I went into the lbs for the firmware update earlier in the year. I basically hammer to the local hills in turbo, hammer up them in turbo and down in EMTB, then crawl home with whatever power is left. This behaviour combined with my 110kg is I guess what caused raised eyebrows. Once I explained my riding style I got "well I suppose" type responses. Slow acceptance.

So will be interesting to see if my profile looks even worse next time it gets plugged in!

On this basis I may as well derestrict. It wouldn't actually increase my speed much on the road ride to the hills (wind/tyre resistance) and it would just mean I can enjoy seamless power delivery those few occasions when I do want to put in a few pedals at anything faster than 15mph on a trail/downhill.

Hmmmm.

 

[Planemo]

This behaviour combined with my 110kg is I guess what caused raised eyebrows. Once I explained my riding style I got "well I suppose" type responses. Slow acceptance.

See, this is what annoys me. If the LBS want to formally and officially challenge my bike data (say if it's in relation to an expensive warranty) then fine, but until that time I don't expect raised eyebrows or indeed any kind of presented suspicion/change of behaviour or indeed anything other than a smiling face and a willingness to help me.

In short, don't treat me any differently until you are pretty bloody sure that I've been involved some skulduggery. Until that point, keep your suspicions and finger pointing to yourself.

 

[Sander23]

It depends what motor and what speed box.
The speedbox (bikespeed rs) that I'm using with my bosch gen 2 is untraceable by the bosch diagnostic. I've seen it my self when I went for an firmware update. At the beginning of the diagnostic the get a message if the bike is tempered with or not, if it's tempered with and they don't go true there is no problem.
It's could be that when they go deeper in the analysis that an expert will see but I haven't had any faults with my gen 2 for almost 3 years.
The lbs even claims that it's almost the same with the gen 4
It's known that most of my local bikeshops just sell these chips regularly

 

[#lazy]

Just by a spesh , they don’t give a hoot what you do with it and will warranty any motor no questions. Hell….. you can even go in a spesh dealer who makes them and fits them for you , it’s brilliant

 

[Huw169]

Life’s too short to worry about this. The chip turns them into the bikes they should have been. 15mph is just not enough.

 

[Mteam]

For clarity, the data on my giant showed an average speed over 2500 km of 15 kph and energy ysage about twice what would be normally expected - so the distributor decided that meant I was using a badass device ( that only registers every second wheel rotation) .

They ignored a max speed of 75 kph ( that'd be 150 with a badass....I'm not THAT good...) , and even when it was pointed out that over 75% of usage was in off or eco ( tuned down to about 75% assistance) , they still argued. At which point I confessed to towing the kids back up hill ( probably 30% of my use was effectively grinding back uphill with a bike in tow)

Now, I also suspect there was a speed sensor issue , intermittently not detecting wheel rotations so reading even lower speeds . My power was cutting in / out AND , I could sit at 27.5 then suddenly get full torque, jump to about 35 then back under 20.....and I was chewing through running gear a lot quicker than the km reading suggested . So that's another possible explanation if data doesn't align ....

There are so many legitimate reasons for a high kw per mile figure that I dont really see how it could be used to deny a warranty claim. I presume this is how the bosch tamper detection works, and why some people get false tamper errors. Its a bit overreaching on bosch's part.

 

[MrSimmo]

As others have said it vastly depends on the LBS and the brand in question; generally:

- Bosch are the most anal about de-restriction. They have added significant anti-tamper monitoring into the bikes systems. Assume you are likely to get a 504 or other error and if you don't, its a bonus. LBS's plug-in software also reports suspicious activity to Bosch central who will analyse before any warranty claim. They are publicly active about derestriction being bad, and a primary road safety hazard, they also work closely with road safety public sector organisations across the world so have to show they are doing all they can to follow local laws. They have publicly stated that the technology is capable of running unrestricted but abiding laws is why they do it. LBS's are apparently also penalised for motor warranty claims if they exceed a certain amount. Also see Destricting gen4 Bosch without error 504? - EMTB Forums

- Shimano and Specialized are a lot more relaxed. LBS's typically aren't incentivised to challenge derestriction. Specialized (Brose) have had a lot of motor failures (relative to others) over the last few years, so they are focussed on improving the technology resilience which actually includes exceptional usage (speed derestriction) as an indicator. They both do not actively work to the same level with public sector road safety organisations and do not publicly talk about speed limiting. There are a lot of LBS's who actually fit derestriction cables for you these days and work with you in the case of a warranty claim. Specialized's Turbo software (the LBS software) does not currently evaluate distance vs cranks to the same degree as Bosch's, neither does Shimano's - this may change.

- Giant are in the middle. They are bothered but primarily to reduce warranty claims on the operational cost of the business. Its a lottery to whether you'll get singled out or not.

- Bafang. They don't seem to care, go for it, ride at 300mph who cares.


Bottom line is they most likely can detect derestriction but not all of them will go to the lengths to decline a warranty claim, and the more ambiguity you through at them (i.e. the uplift days, towing people etc) will cast further doubt on the dispute. Be aware though that towing people is sometimes frowned at and that in itself may cause a warranty issue through "overloading the motor".

Get a friendly LBS and work with them, if they know you they'll most likely help you more in the event of a problem.

I'm not a fan of restriction at all and Bosch's approach is a joke to customer service. But it is what it is.

 

[Planemo]

They have publicly stated that the technology is capable of running unrestricted.

OK, so if the system itself is built to and capable of running in an unrestricted format, and we know that derestriction in itself isn't illegal then why is there even any conversation about what a rider has been doing when it comes to warranties?

 

[Gary]

Because of your terms of warranty.
#NotRocketScience

 

[Planemo]

Because of your terms of warranty.
#NotRocketScience

Condescending as usual, I expect nothing less from you.

My point was, if the unit is built to withstand the speeds that derestriction gives, why don't Bosch warranty it to that level?

If a car within warranty blows a rod out the side whilst at top speed, the warranty isn't void because of the speed element.