Rail (750Wh) Bosch Smart V5 update Mileage/Speed error

[JP-NZ]

I suspect it's a combination.

Lets face it, Trek wouldn't go out of their way to develop their own sensor and alternative magnet when there are off the shelf items they can just procure from Bosch which will work.

Presumably when they were making the frame they realised that they couldn't use the standard sensor/magnet combination and had to develop their own.

This relies on a larger magnet on the disk and an offset sensor. This must of complied with the Bosch system at the time, but with the latest update, it operates outside of the parameters.

I suspect with the offset magnet the system now reads a magnet arriving signal and a magnet departing signal so it's doubling up.

By rotating the existing magnet on one bolt to line up with the signal it should just receive a single clear signal. You could even just unbolt the Trek magnet and stick a magnet on the disk to line up with the sensor.

With the single bolt magnet mount or the floating magnet, you run the risk that it could move/dislodge, so ideally someone will make a triangular magnet mount to offset the magnet from the standard disk holes, or 3d print a cage (triangle with a round hole in it) to hold the floating magnet in place against the disk.

Trek must be ripping their hair out at this ineptitude from Bosch.. They push out an update that only works with "Bosch magnets/sensors" knowing full well Trek has thousands of bikes in the market with "Trek Magnets/sensors".

 

[blob]

If Trek's custom magnet/sensor are causing the issue, how is the bike able to show the correct current speed? Shouldn't that also be messed up, not just the total distance and average speed?

 

[scooby82r]

If Trek's custom magnet/sensor are causing the issue, how is the bike able to show the correct current speed? Shouldn't that also be messed up, not just the total distance and average speed?

My speed is double as well

 

[blob]

My speed is double as well

Interesting. For me the speed is correct, but only trip distance and average speed get doubled.

 

[scooby82r]

Interesting. For me the speed is correct, but only trip distance and average speed get doubled.

Sorry that's what I mean, average speed shows double.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think the "live" speed on the kiox still retains the same code it did previously. It probably works this out from the live data streamed from the motor in the same way the purion used to.

The distance and average speed (distance/time) are calculated and stored by the motor and is presumably calculated by the same code which is also monitoring for de-rsstriction.

 

[Arminius]

Good morning,
Not being an expert on Gauss & friends I wonder if the mounting direction of the poles of the magnet, as somewhat related by @Zimmerframe before, has to do with it as causing different signals, even if not supported by post #88 Rail (750Wh) - Bosch Smart V5 update Mileage/Speed error

Bosch Sensor:

Would probanly ressult in this - unipolar:

Source: All about circuits 1

Trek Sensor

Could probably result in this - bi-polar:

Source: All about circuits 2

 

[Yoak]

We've had the magnet mounted the wrong way from the factory in the past. It Caused all sorts of trouble (but only after a little while). Everything was solved when we re-mounted the magnet. Could it be that the bikes affected has the magnets the "wrong" way? (As above poster indicates)

 

[JP-NZ]

We've had the magnet mounted the wrong way from the factory in the past. It Caused all sorts of trouble (but only after a little while). Everything was solved when we re-mounted the magnet. Could it be that the bikes affected has the magnets the "wrong" way? (As above poster indicates)

If it was mounted the "wrong way" how did it read distance, speed etc correct when new. Its 100% something within the software update that Bosch have implemented that has changed that.

 

[Planemo]

Lets face it, Trek wouldn't go out of their way to develop their own sensor and alternative magnet when there are off the shelf items they can just procure from Bosch which will work.

Have you seen the price of genuine Bosch magnets?!

I jest, but it wouldn't surprise me what with the bean-counters we have today

 

[blob]

makes total sense

 

[Yoak]

If it was mounted the "wrong way" how did it read distance, speed etc correct when new. Its 100% something within the software update that Bosch have implemented that has changed that.

Not sure, but we had the bike out for a test ride or two, before we gave it to one client on a group ride. Then it started to act up after 5km. In the end I rode it (with motor cutting off over 5km/h) and gave the client my bike. Didn't figure out it was the magnet until later that evening

 

[irie]

If it was mounted the "wrong way" how did it read distance, speed etc correct when new. Its 100% something within the software update that Bosch have implemented that has changed that.

Perhaps in the previous software version it didn't matter if magnets were installed the "wrong way" but in the new version it now matters ...

 

[Paul Mac]

Not sure, but we had the bike out for a test ride or two, before we gave it to one client on a group ride. Then it started to act up after 5km. In the end I rode it (with motor cutting off over 5km/h) and gave the client my bike. Didn't figure out it was the magnet until later that evening

Can you elaborate, are you saying that by altering the magnets orientation in some way has resolved the issue?
I thought this problem would have been sorted by now, been almost a month now!

 

[Zimmerframe]

Can you elaborate, are you saying that by altering the magnets orientation in some way has resolved the issue?
I thought this problem would have been sorted by now, been almost a month now!

The magnet is curved to follow the shape of the disk.

However, you could mount it the other way round, so it was convex rather than concave (not following the shape of the disk). This would move it a few mm further from the sensor.

I believe @Yoak is talking about a previous bike (not with this latest update).

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just for reference sake :

The rail sensor :

Quite a bit smaller than the standard Bosch one and mounts in a more vertical plane, almost flush with the frame and combined with a relatively large magnet.

Where as the Bosch one is larger, normally mounted horizontally and is paired with a smaller magnet (normally). The Bosch one is basically the same as we've seen since the beginning with the spoke magnets.

The Bosch Sensor normally protrudes from the frame

Swapping the sensors is not especially easy as the mount points are at opposite ends to begin with.

For the few Rail owners who haven't installed a side stand yet You might be able to bodge something together with the stand mount points, but the sensor may foul the disk ?

 

[Paul Mac]

Think I'm just going to buy the Bosch valve mounted magnet for mine and have it activated at a Bosch dealer, could be another month before Trek gets its finger out.

 

[henryd555]

Just got the new 2023 Rail 7 with smart system and I am having the same issues. I wouldn't really mind but having my odometer track double is extremely frustrating considering the value of the bike is somewhat based off of that. It does not make sense to me that a software update has created issues that need to be resolved by changing the hardware rather than by changing the software again. Im assuming its cheaper for Bosch to not spend time on it but its going to create some issues for trek if they have to change a sensor on every e-bike equipped with smart system. Seems much more efficient to have the software engineers find a fix in the software than to force trek to deal with the problems by changing hardware.

 

[Arminius]

Another thought:
Could it have to do with ABS introduced lately?

 

[Paul Mac]

Just got the new 2023 Rail 7 with smart system and I am having the same issues. I wouldn't really mind but having my odometer track double is extremely frustrating considering the value of the bike is somewhat based off of that. It does not make sense to me that a software update has created issues that need to be resolved by changing the hardware rather than by changing the software again. Im assuming its cheaper for Bosch to not spend time on it but its going to create some issues for trek if they have to change a sensor on every e-bike equipped with smart system. Seems much more efficient to have the software engineers find a fix in the software than to force trek to deal with the problems by changing hardware.

I don't think Trek are taking this anyway near seriously enough, I highlighted this issue over a month ago and there is still nothing stopping an unsuspecting customer updating their Trek today and getting this issue!

 

[Zimmerframe]

I don't think Trek are taking this anyway near seriously enough, I highlighted this issue over a month ago and there is still nothing stopping an unsuspecting customer updating their Trek today and getting this issue!

Apparently, most Trek owners have taken advantage of it and are using it to spend more time in the pub and then show the Mrs that they did actually go for a long ride.

 

[Arminius]

Trek. Going the extra mile for you!

 

[Jeremybub]

I don't think Trek are taking this anyway near seriously enough, I highlighted this issue over a month ago and there is still nothing stopping an unsuspecting customer updating their Trek today and getting this issue!

Yes I agree. Honestly this is turning me bitter on Trek, #1 of 2 reason I purchased the Trek was because of local Trek Factory stores, I have 3 in my area and if an issue arises I could take it in, they solve it and I’m back on the trails, this is like going through a online retailer at this point with my bike being at Trek Folsom for 3 weeks this Monday! Extremely frustrating and I am sure everyone is going to feel that way soon enough.
Update on my bike, per Bosch last Monday they shipped the new Bosch parts & per Trek Folsom they did not receive as of yesterday Friday, this to me is mind blowing, did Bosch actually not ship FedEx or UPS and sent them snail mail, ah what the F, I just sent a follow up email to Jim with Bosch, we’ll see what Bosch has to say.

 

[JP-NZ]

Hate to be in your situation @Jeremybub I’m waiting patiently to see what the actual fix is. Trek & Bosch have really dropped the ball here, Bosch IMO is the main problem.

 

[rigavaz]

I have the same issue on my brand new Rail 9.8.
Once this is fixed, can they correct the milage in the motor? Because I am too, like most of us, very frustrated about running the bike 2X the milage and a crucial effect on resale costs.
Anybody asked this at Trek/Bosch already?

 

[Jeremybub]

I have the same issue on my brand new Rail 9.8.
Once this is fixed, can they correct the milage in the motor? Because I am too, like most of us, very frustrated about running the bike 2X the milage and a crucial effect on resale costs.
Anybody asked this at Trek/Bosch already?

Hey buddy, that was my first question to Trek and Bosch 3 weeks ago when I first noticed the issue, I received the same answer from both, hold on to you chair, No it is impossible to roll back miles!
My bike has been sitting at the shop, they gave me a 9.7 as a loner until a solution is found. I guess that is why I am not freaking out that much.

 

[rigavaz]

Hey buddy, that was my first question to Trek and Bosch 3 weeks ago when I first noticed the issue, I received the same answer from both, hold on to you chair, No it is impossible to roll back miles!
My bike has been sitting at the shop, they gave me a 9.7 as a loner until a solution is found. I guess that is why I am not freaking out that much.

I think this is total BS. I am going to ask for some compensation on this from Trek that is for sure. And looking at the "speed" they are (NOT) solving the issue, this could easily be weeks and weeks until it is solved, which in my case, riding 200-250 kms every week could be a few thousand kilometers "extra" on the clock. An we all know what that means when trying to sell a high milage bike vs. a normal milage one.

 

[Paul Mac]

I'm hoping the fix will be available next week.
My Trek dealer received the valve mounted magnet yesterday, but on fitting couldn't figure out how to enable the internal speed sensor. They're contacting Bosch on Monday and I'm hoping it will be a dealer doable

 

[Jeremybub]

I'm hoping the fix will be available next week.
My Trek dealer received the valve mounted magnet yesterday, but on fitting couldn't figure out how to enable the internal speed sensor. They're contacting Bosch on Monday and I'm hoping it will be a dealer doable

Keep us posted

 

[nickOrex]

Wierd one today. Since the update it’s always read almost exactly double what it should be. Todays ride is still well out but not as bad as before!!