Bafang M500 V2 vs Bosch Gen 4

[Zimmerframe]

Why would anyone run the m500 instead of the m600? M600 utterly destroys Bosch Gen 4. I have both right now and alternate between the two. My fastest Strava times are from m600. The Bosch is much smoother but I'm playing with the bafang best tool now to fix that. For raw power m600. For smoothest most natural assist Bosch.

Because the M500 is EU approved and the M600 isn't. The M600 is a completely different classification of bike (Moped).

Yes, an M600 should completely destroy a Bosch Gen 4. It's like saying a 500 hp Engine is more powerful than a 250hp engine. The difference is that the M500 and the Gen4 both comply to the same rules and regulations.

Using your argument, who would run the M600 when a Cake utterly destroys an M600 bike ? You need the same licences and insurance for the two.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Why would anyone run the m500 instead of the m600? M600 utterly destroys Bosch Gen 4. I have both right now and alternate between the two. My fastest Strava times are from m600. The Bosch is much smoother but I'm playing with the bafang best tool now to fix that. For raw power m600. For smoothest most natural assist Bosch.

M600 isn’t legal in the U.K. as it is 500W continuous, 45 Kph and it’s also pretty heavy at 3.9 Kg (vs Bosch Gen 4 at 2.9KG)

 

[Zimmerframe]

We still don’t know how it compares. Why not run it up the same hill as the group test? At least we’d have a figure to compare. All we know is that it wasn’t as good up one really steep hill as the Bosch!

Because he's made three video's on it and on everyone he's pointed out that it's not as powerful as the other motors.

Question :

We still don’t know how it compares.

Answer :

All we know is that it wasn’t as good up one really steep hill as the Bosch!

What's the obsession ? It's a good motor. It's effective. It's super cheap ! We all like a David beats Goliath story, but why do people think that Bafang's first attempt at regulation complying EMTB motor is going to be magically better than Bosch's latest in a line of motors ?

It's not. So what ! I wouldn't turn my nose up at one for the fleet just because it doesn't deliver its power as effectively as the Gen4. Every motor has high's and low's compared to every other motor. Buying/making any EMTB is a series of compromises.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

We still don’t know how it compares. Why not run it up the same hill as the group test? At least we’d have a figure to compare. All we know is that it wasn’t as good up one really steep hill as the Bosch!

We know how it compares to the Bosch. And I’d say it feels weaker than all the current gen of motors (EP8 / Yamaha / Brose).

I’d compare it to the Shimano E7000 in terms of feel.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Also, believe me, I wanted it to be a better performer. I researched and built the thing from scratch. Blood sweat and tears!

After the first CHEEB test, I contacted Bafangs EU CEO on LinkedIn and got in contact with their senior team... I gave them detailed info on what I thought was missing from the motor in terms of power.

They then sent me a revised motor with new firmware and hardware. It still isn’t a match sadly...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Detouring the thread .. or spicing it up depending on your perspective ...

What we I really want to know is what's the EON drive (bafang - 60nm) like in the Forestal bikes compared the the Mahle (35nm) and the EP8 RS (60nm) in terms of over all power, support, efficiency.

If it's based around the M800, it might not feel like it has the claimed 60nm.

 

[BootsDave]

But you compared the speeds of the other motors and not the Bafang? I know it’s slower, but how much?

 

[Bama]

This motor ABSOLUTELY CRUSHES it!!

Glad I got my 2020 9.7 ...ready to ride today!

 

[Zimmerframe]

But you compared the speeds of the other motors and not the Bafang? I know it’s slower, but how much?

As they say in Jamaica .. There is only one Winner, there is no second place, only losers. (I have a Brose before I'm accused of being a Bosch Fan boy and with bike prices as they are at the moment, I'd need more than a £1M cheque !! )

If you were buying/building a bike, would you choose motor A for €1000 or motor B for €350 if motor A was 1-3 seconds faster up a particular hill ?

 

[Gyre]

MORE LIES ! We all know if Bosch offered you £1M - you'd say ... Noooo, please keep it and use the money to develop a display which isn't made from a re-cycled 1990's Nokia mobile phone !!

While they’re at it, maybe some ANT+ classes for their engineers so it can share power/speed/cadence with a proper cyclecomputer.

 

[BootsDave]

My point is, that Rob built the Cheeb because of the responses that he got after the group motor test. So if after building it, you don’t do the same test, you’ve just wasted a lot of time and money. A subjective, “it feels less powerful” is meaningless!

 

[Doomanic]

The original test was so far from repeatable, even on the day, that it was essentially meaningless. Fun, but meaningless.

 

[Zimmerframe]

My point is, that Rob built the Cheeb because of the responses that he got after the group motor test. So if after building it, you don’t do the same test, you’ve just wasted a lot of time and money. A subjective, “it feels less powerful” is meaningless!

It might have inspired him to think I wonder if I can actually build a bike which is similar to these bought bikes, but for less money. Agreed, in the back of his head, you'd want your creation to be better than what the world has to offer ! That's the aim. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't - but in terms of usable power, the M500 seems a bit behind the field - but the Cheeb probably has more range than most of the bikes on offer at the moment.

I'm not quite sure you can class his findings as subjective. If it was one of us muppets, yes, it would be. But someone who's riding dozens of different bikes/motors on similar trails on a daily basis has a degree of experience which means their experiences and findings are more than just a passing feeling depending on what they had for breakfast that day. Don't forget the Cheeb has been ridden for hundreds of miles, not just one 5 km jaunt down a car park.

As @Doomanic says, the original test was far from scientific. It was fun , entertaining and gave you a rough idea of the differences between the motors in that situation. For most of us, this whole thing is about Fun ! It really doesn't matter a dot if one persons motor has slightly more power than the others. We all get to the top - with as much fun as possible - and then the main fun begins.

I guess where people are strugging with this discussion, is why anyone cares ?? If it's more powerful in a lab, great. On paper, great .. In the real world it's not - but who cares, it still makes for a great EMTB motor. It gives people a great option to build their own bike from scratch and end up with something which is as good as many of the off the shelf options.

More importantly .. The CHEEB has less than 16 Hours left in it's auction :

The CHEEB - Custom Build Full Carbon Electric Mountain Bike | eBay

You're chance to own the original CHEEB! Built lovingly by myself and featured in my YouTube videos. - Shimano Deore 4 pot brakes. This bike is not a factory produced bike. Its a little rough around the edges (I painted it with a rattle can!).

www.ebay.co.uk

Rumour has it that if it gets to over £4000 - Rob will print up and sign a T-shirt for the winner which says "I've Ridden Rob's Purple monster" .

 

[Doomanic]

Rumour has it that if it doesn't get over £4000 - Rob will print up and sign a T-shirt which says "I've Ridden Rob's Purple monster" and make the winner wear it...

That should help with the bidding...

 

[d3ftone]

Could the M600's max assist speed be changed to 20 mph (or 25 kph) with the BESST tool?

 

[Kyokushin]

I have ordered a bike with M500 (produced directly for me, now i am waiting for the order) and have a question - since when Bafang is producing the V2 version and how to recognize it from V1?

Another question for @Rob Rides EMTB - have you tried the 'Boost' function described here for M500?

Bafang M500 and M600 motors

Thanks CRF! You are welcome!

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Waynemarlow]

Also, believe me, I wanted it to be a better performer. I researched and built the thing from scratch. Blood sweat and tears!

Guys don’t be disappointed with an engine which the label on the motor clearly states 48 volts 10 amps. After all that equates to 480 W’s. Now we know that the Bosch and Brose are up around the 800 W’s so it is going to be an unfair contest.

Now the M600 is 48 volts and 18 amps which equates nicely to about 850 W’s, now that’s more of a fair contest.

 

[Kyokushin]

Wait, the M500 have less peak power than M400?

Both M500 and Bosh gen4 are 250 nominal power rated engines and comparison is fine. The M600 is 500W rated engine, illegal for pedelec's in europe and is out of contest.
480W in peak sounds like low-end piece of crap engine. DAPU MD250 or Nananda are around 700-900W in peak and i even not expeted so low output power from the top-rated Bafang :| A "disappointed" is the "euphemism" here.

Below chart is for M400 and i received it from Bafang.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Wait, the M500 have less peak power than M400?

Both M500 and Bosh gen4 are 250 nominal power rated engines and comparison is fine. The M600 is 500W rated engine, illegal for pedelec's in europe and is out of contest.
480W in peak sounds like low-end piece of crap engine. DAPU MD250 or Nananda are around 700-900W in peak and i even not expeted so low output power from the top-rated Bafang :| A "disappointed" is the "euphemism" here.

Below chart is for M400 and i received it from Bafang.
View attachment 60421

You seem to have a contact nobody else has in regard to getting that chart. Can you put the same question to the same contact and ask for the M500 and M600 charts ?

Now before we diss the motor to much, what is the 10 Amps, are we assuming max battery draw and does it means something else ?

 

[Kyokushin]

I have asked the Bafang for M500 chart twice but have not answer. Contact gone after i received this one for M400.

 

[markus datgloi]

Could the M600's max assist speed be changed to 20 mph (or 25 kph) with the BESST tool?

Read this page: Bafang M500/M600 thread - Page 13 - Endless Sphere or better read the complete thread wrt a 'Bafang account' and many other interesting things.

 

[pacotomi]

Hi Rob, sorry for my English.
A question what difference is there between the M500 and brose thanks

 

[Waynemarlow]

About 450 Watts

 

[Kyokushin]

In the other hand the output power should be visible on display.
I am curious the numbers will show up.

The 480W is less than bbs01, it could be really strange IF the TOP bafang EU metered engine, will be the weakest not only in comparison with others but even within the Bafang offer. It is just not logic for me.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Max I saw on there was 526w

 

[Kyokushin]

on bbs02 i saw max 1.2 kW what seems to be legit when we take its 25A * 48V.

It seems the M500 is something around bbs01, m400 and probably other bafang 250W engines, maybe in slightly different characteristics. Honestly its dissappointing.

How to recognize difference between m500 v1 and v2? I am courious which one i will get.

@Rob Rides EMTB have you checked the 'boost' mode?
is it avaiable on M500?

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Power is nothing without control chaps.

lots of talk on watts and torque. No one mentioned the trek frame and climbing abilities?

despite it feeling less powerful as Rob stated (which I’m sure is the case) the trek might just be a better chassis.

Id be more intrigued to see the motors tested in the same frame / bike ?

i suspect the Bosch would still win

 

[Waynemarlow]

It seems the M500 is something around bbs01, m400 and probably other bafang 250W engines, maybe in slightly different characteristics. Honestly its dissappointing.

Bafang have a suite of engines available to compare, probably have the longest field test on the largest data base available of any of the manufacturers and yet seem down on power. To me that doesn't add up. Is it not just Bafang playing to the rules more so than other manufacturers ?

The 250W legal limit is hugely subjective and how its actually tested for is more likely just the manufacturers saying it complies, after all I have never seen actual tests by any EU regulatory body on any motor. I must fit a temp sensor then I may be able to match them but for the moment I'm set max 650W's and the Brose I ride with is off like a scolded cat and the Bosch not far behind. Perhaps Bafang should just re lable the M600 as 250W and reset the speed limit for EU sales.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Id be more intrigued to see the motors tested in the same frame / bike

Didn't the EMBN show have a dyno they were building, track testing on differnet frames has just too many variables to be worth the time where as a direct chain drive onto the same dyno, now thats worth considering.

But would it open up the genies bottle and openly prove / admit the 250W limit is a farce. If that were so then we would be condemning any future motors to 250W's top whack.

 

[Curiousman]

Max I saw on there was 526w

Exactly the same for me : 526w max on the display when you push very hard, and it's very VERY difficult to reach this figure because I am light (67kgs) and the power sensors on the pedals seem poorly calibrated...