Yamaha YPJ-YZ E

[Zimmerframe]

That was the only point some of us angry old mountain bikers were trying to make.
Anytime a new bike comes out and the manufacturer is saying how it’s the best bike on the market, I have look at it with some skepticism.
As much as the new Levo was better than the old one, it wasn’t the second coming of August Ames.

You're in the lower 10% age segment of e-bikers !!!! Other than @Gary possibly the best looking here (according to Gary) and certainly the only one to disrupt the entire Danish sex industry in 48 hours by moving the goal posts so far ...

You also prefer the 2018? Levo for personal use .. and when did anyone release anything and say "It's pretty good, not as good as the xyz, or maybe even last years, but it's still not bad"

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

If they have such technological and financial muscle beyond what any bike company has, then why I are they using a run of the mill Horst-link suspension design with an off the shelf Fox DPX2 rear shock?
I think the answer is just because they have the money to invest, doesn’t mean they will.

Just wild guessing... I speculate that this bike was put out there primarily to test the waters.

Design wise there's nothing there really. If you remove the fancy markings and the logo brand and a design student submits that to a MTB design school, that might get a C minus. The execution of the Horst-link is pretty basic too. Have a look at the over-reaching gusset welded to the seat tube that holds the lower pivot of the shock rocker arm... that very 'agricultural' by todays standards. In an age where hydroformed tubes are now common place, that split head tube doesn't appear to resemble much tooling investment other than a bender and the usual welding jigs. Other than the motor/battery technology which might be where the gold is hidden, there's no innovative investment that I can see on the mechanical aspects of the bike.

Yamaha is a multi-faceted corporation and they have a presence in various unrelated markets. They are not naive about what it takes to branch out into a new consumer culture. It takes more than just producing a great bike design (this one isn't yet). They would need to break moulds established consumer mindsets. They make very good guitars for example, but they couldn't crack the electric guitar scene (they faired better in classical and orchestral). Even with celebrity endorsements, it hardly makes a difference... turning up with a Yamaha at a gig has no prestige factor. The guy with the battered Fender axe still gets the chicks.

Take Giant for example - HUGE company, biggest bicycle manufacturer in Taiwan (possibly globally), followed closely by Merida. In our little part of the forest, Giant just recently won the e-Enduro world series with a Reign E+ and it hardly stayed in the news for a week. The amount of money that needs to be spent to sustain racing teams (in various cycling disciplines globally) and trying to win races year after year - just to keep that brand in people's faces has to be staggering.

Corporations don't innovate. People do. That's why small boutique bike companies do so well with public perception. Unexpected leading-edge innovation from an underdog = instant prestige... but often lacks the muscle to step things up commercially. When we see Yamaha start coming up with real technological innovations, that means they corralled experienced and seasoned bike designers into their infrastructure... that'll be followed quickly by a concerted marketing programme one would hope. Then we'll know that they've really sat down at the poker table. The table is getting awfully crowded tho...

Other than that, they could just churn out run-of-the-mill frames to bump up their motor sales. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just wild guessing... I speculate that this bike was put out there primarily to test the waters.

Design wise there's nothing there really. If you remove the fancy markings and the logo brand and a design student submits that to a MTB design school, that might get a C minus. The execution of the Horst-link is pretty basic too. Have a look at the over-reaching gusset welded to the seat tube that holds the lower pivot of the shock rocker arm... that very 'agricultural' by todays standards. In an age where hydroformed tubes are now common place, that split head tube doesn't appear to resemble much tooling investment other than a bender and the usual welding jigs. Other than the motor/battery technology which might be where the gold is hidden, there's no innovative investment that I can see on the mechanical aspects of the bike.

View attachment 20899

Yamaha is a multi-faceted company and they have a presence in various unrelated markets. They are not naive about what it takes to branch out into a new consumer culture. It takes more than just producing a great bike design (this one isn't yet). They would need to break moulds established consumer mindsets. They make really decent electric guitars for example, but they couldn't crack that nut (they faired better in classical and orchestral). Even with celebrity endorsements, it hardly makes a difference... turning up with a Yamaha at a gig has no prestige factor. The guy with the banged-up Fender still gets the chicks.

Take Giant for example - HUGE company, biggest bicycle manufacturer in Taiwan (possibly globally), followed closely by Merida. In our little part of the forest, Giant just recently won the e-Enduro world series with a Reign E+ and it hardly stayed in the news for a week. The amount of money that needs to be spent to sustain racing teams (in various cycling disciplines globally) and trying to win races year after year - just to keep that brand in people's faces has to be staggering.

Corporations don't innovate. People do. That's why small boutique innovative bike companies do so well with public perception - instant prestige... but lack the muscle to step things up commercially. When we see Yamaha start coming up with real technological innovations, that means they corralled experienced and seasoned bike designers into their infrastructure... that'll be followed quickly by a concerted marketing programme one would hope. Then we'll know that they've really sat down at the poker table.

Other than that, they could just churn out run of the mill frames to bump up their motor sales. Nothing wrong with that.

You're all making the assumption that it's a bike and not just an agile mobile musical instrument/off road piano like this one :

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

You're all making the assumption that it's a bike and not just an agile mobile musical instrument/off road piano like this one...

Oh other than that auto show Yamaha car prototype that you posted earlier... I've actually seen a 2-stroke Yamaha car made for Le Mans in a magazine ages ago. Couldn't find any pics uploaded in the net. It was banned... and never allowed to compete.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Totally off thread .. but found this when searching for your 2 stroke yammy sportscar .. it's not a 2 stroke or a yammy, but was an interesting read all the same ..

Moteur Malheur - 1990 Norma M6 MGN W12 — Carmrades

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Totally off thread .. but found this when searching for your 2 stroke yammy sportscar .. it's not a 2 stroke or a yammy, but was an interesting read all the same ..

Moteur Malheur - 1990 Norma M6 MGN W12 — Carmrades

Wow! It's not a bike, not electric, not Yamaha, not 2-stroke, no innuendos...
That's a new high for you as far as going off-topic is concerned, haha!

 

[Zimmerframe]

I know , it's not good ... don't tell anyone ! I'll try to make up for it over the next few days ...

 

[Doomanic]

Please don't...

 

[DrStupid]

Totally off thread .. but found this when searching for your 2 stroke yammy sportscar .. it's not a 2 stroke or a yammy, but was an interesting read all the same ..

Moteur Malheur - 1990 Norma M6 MGN W12 — Carmrades

That is a very sad story.

 

[DrStupid]

That was the only point some of us angry old mountain bikers were trying to make.
Anytime a new bike comes out and the manufacturer is saying how it’s the best bike on the market, I have look at it with some skepticism.
As much as the new Levo was better than the old one, it wasn’t the second coming of August Ames.

Not being an angry old mountain biker myself, I can still understand the frustration. I've come from the other side, having stayed with dirtbikes for what seems like forever. I have seen the failures of that industry though, and I've almost completely lost interest in it. I used to love my little dirtbikes, and watched in horror as they became bloated lumbering beast... too expensive, too fast, too heavy, too loud, add nausea.

Enter the emtb. I find it almost perfectly suited to do what I want it to do... replace my old petroleum power dirtbikes with something easier, lighter, cheaper, quieter.. the exact opposite of what the 4 stroke revolution did. ?.

I find that every part of the modern emtb is almost perfect, except they need a little more power, a little more reliability, and a real transmission.

I hoped that Yamaha might try to bring this, they didnt.

Maybe Honda will..they certainly came close with that DH rig! Hey, but if any one of the current bicycle frame manufactures does it... I will be the first to jump on, and ride it like I stole it!

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I've come from the other side, having stayed with dirtbikes... Enter the emtb. I find it almost perfectly suited to do what I want it to do... replace my old petroleum power dirtbikes with something easier, lighter, cheaper, quieter.. the exact opposite of what the 4 stroke revolution did. ?.

I like your perspective... an eMTB is light.

A good friend of mine picked up my Trance E+ as if to assess whether it was a good bike or not. People really need to stop doing that and grasp a fresh and more fitting perspective.

Cheaper though, I’m not so sure!

 

[DrStupid]

I like your perspective... an eMTB is light.

A good friend of mine picked up my Trance E+ as if to assess whether it was a good bike or not. People really need to stop doing that and grasp a fresh and more fitting perspective.

Cheaper though, I’m not so sure!

A new motocross bike is about $9k give or take a few. I bought 3 great ebikes for $11k and I dont need a truck and trailer to haul, and dont need to drive 100s of miles to find new interesting places to ride. Cost of ownership is way less with an ebike than a moto in my experience. Plus there just more fecking fun! = 2 cents

 

[dochabanero]

I find that every part of the modern emtb is almost perfect, except they need a little more power, a little more reliability, and a real transmission.

I hoped that Yamaha might try to bring this, they didnt.

Can’t remember the name of the company, but there was a manufacturer at Eurobike 2019 that had a motor and integrated transmission. That is the future!

 

[Zimmerframe]

Can’t remember the name of the company, but there was a manufacturer at Eurobike 2019 that had a motor and integrated transmission. That is the future!

Continental do one and there are some others I can't remember ..

Continental Bicycle Systems - Drive Units

 

[dochabanero]

Yeah, thats true. Continental does as well. Sorry I just can’t remember the name of the one I thought of :/

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

A new motocross bike is about $9k give or take a few. I bought 3 great ebikes for $11k and I dont need a truck and trailer to haul, and dont need to drive 100s of miles to find new interesting places to ride. Cost of ownership is way less with an ebike than a moto in my experience. Plus there just more fecking fun! = 2 cents

I come from a BMX background where an eBike is flippin heavy and freakin expensive, haha. You’re looking down, I’m looking up.

(Proverb) describe an elephant:
ANT - a ginormous creature that blocks out the sun.
EAGLE - a tiny spec on the ground.

 

[Rusty]

Not being an angry old mountain biker myself, I can still understand the frustration. I've come from the other side, having stayed with dirtbikes for what seems like forever. I have seen the failures of that industry though, and I've almost completely lost interest in it. I used to love my little dirtbikes, and watched in horror as they became bloated lumbering beast... too expensive, too fast, too heavy, too loud, add nausea.

Enter the emtb. I find it almost perfectly suited to do what I want it to do... replace my old petroleum power dirtbikes with something easier, lighter, cheaper, quieter.. the exact opposite of what the 4 stroke revolution did. ?.

I find that every part of the modern emtb is almost perfect, except they need a little more power, a little more reliability, and a real transmission.

I hoped that Yamaha might try to bring this, they didnt.

Maybe Honda will..they certainly came close with that DH rig! Hey, but if any one of the current bicycle frame manufactures does it... I will be the first to jump on, and ride it like I stole it!

That almost reads like something I would post.
I dispaired when the YZ400F came out and prophecised that it would be the end of MX as we knew it. Many of the members on the website I worked for ragged me mercilessly over that. Sadly, a large percentage of them no longer race/ride. Even though the 450s have become a lot more reliable, they are still too expensive to own and maintain (price a valve job and cam chain replacement compared to a smoker top end job), heavy and wayyyy too loud.

Enter the eMTB - still too heavy. Having rode most of the motors I think the power is pretty much in the ball-park with the real issue being that the poor Euro guys need new regs to allow 25mph. Have been happy with the reliability of both the Shimano & Brose motors but want 5000km plus to really make an opinion.
A Transmission is however what eMTB need. I can see manufacturers sticking with derailleurs for analogue bikes (even if I have bent them under load climbing) for their weight benefit but for the sustained power and torque of an eMTB they are just not good enough. Once I replace my current bikes I am thinking of going the Rohloff way unless something better eventuates.

You hoped Yamaha might bring this? Seriously .... the crowd that brought MX the YZF400?

 

[Fivetones]

Might explain the increased company interest in ebikes

Yamaha axes all car development plans | Autocar

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

A Transmission is however what eMTB need.

In theory, a vehicle (or bicycle) with an electric motor doesn't really need a transmission. Some racing e-motorcycles don't have clutches or transmissions and can accelerate from 0 to 200+kph in one full twist of the throttle - direct drive (heavy beasts like giant lithium-ion hand grenades).

The only reason why we have transmissions in the first place is because our conventional sources of power (human energy, or internal combustion engines) have very narrow power bands. Not so with an electric motor.

Power delivery through a gearbox type transmission is also hindered by friction and drag - ball park rule of thumb is 10% power loss per mesh engagement. High manufacturing tolerances and constant lubrication are also crucial just to maintain that. In comparison a chain-cog type transmission is about 98% efficient and a fraction of the physical weight and production cost. It's cheap, user serviceable, easily reconfigured, and can still virtually work even in mud - but, it's exposed.

Most (if not all) of the electric motor configurations we see today in our eBikes doesn't represent the full potential of what an electric motor can do. They are electro-mechanical contraptions designed to mimic what we as cyclists think and expect an eBike should be. If we remove cadence management, as well as energy management (both ours and the motor) - then the cycling experience is lost. It would be a terribly disengaging user experience.

This is why I believe that cycling federations have decided that e-Bikes should be restricted to a 250 watt electric motor. A 250 watt motor STILL needs help. The help comes from the human passenger. That help comes in the form of pedalling action... which by nature also needs occasional relief - hence why is cadence based. The 250 watt motor is light enough and small enough to be fed by a reasonably sized battery. Any iteration that employs a bigger motor power output and battery capacity, will render the cyclist redundant. The phrase "power assist" is more important than we realise.

I agree that the cassette and derailleur needs to go - but I think that the inclusion of cadence management inside the motor casing should be achieved electronically if at all possible (more efficient, quiet, no wear and tear, no mech servicing, user programmable) - without extensive use or even eliminating the use of mechanical gears altogether.

 

[DrStupid]

In theory, a vehicle (or bicycle) with an electric motor doesn't really need a transmission. Some racing e-motorcycles don't have clutches or transmissions and can accelerate from 0 to 200+kph in one full twist of the throttle - direct drive (heavy beasts like giant lithium-ion hand grenades).

The only reason why we have transmissions in the first place is because our conventional sources of power (human energy, or internal combustion engines) have very narrow power bands. Not so with an electric motor.

Power delivery through a gearbox type transmission is also hindered by friction and drag - ball park rule of thumb is 10% power loss per mesh engagement. High manufacturing tolerances and constant lubrication are also crucial just to maintain that. In comparison a chain-cog type transmission is about 98% efficient and a fraction of the physical weight and production cost. It's cheap, user serviceable, easily reconfigured, and can still virtually work even in mud - but, it's exposed.

Most (if not all) of the electric motor configurations we see today in our eBikes doesn't represent the full potential of what an electric motor can do. They are electro-mechanical contraptions designed to mimic what we as cyclists think and expect an eBike should be. If we remove cadence management, as well as energy management (both ours and the motor) - then the cycling experience is lost. It would be a terribly disengaging user experience.

This is why I believe that cycling federations have decided that e-Bikes should be restricted to a 250 watt electric motor. A 250 watt motor STILL needs help. The help comes from the human passenger. That help comes in the form of pedalling action... which by nature also needs occasional relief - hence why is cadence based. The 250 watt motor is light enough and small enough to be fed by a reasonably sized battery. Any iteration that employs a bigger motor power output and battery capacity, will render the cyclist redundant. The phrase "power assist" is more important than we realise.

I agree that the cassette and derailleur needs to go - but I think that the inclusion of cadence management inside the motor casing should be achieved electronically if at all possible (more efficient, quiet, no wear and tear, no mech servicing, user programmable) - without extensive use or even eliminating the use of mechanical gears altogether.

I agree, in theory that the motor doesn't need a trans, but for sure our legs do.

I think we are the trouble, with our 100 rpm practical range. Get rid of the rider and this all becomes elementary. But were would we go?

 

[Cliffo691]

As Yamaha are part of Toyota their financial power must be on par or greater than Bosch also as Yamaha own Ohlins it would have made sense to use their shocks and forks...

 

[sparrow]

I would guess Yamaha is having Giant produce the eBikes. Giant/Yamaha have partnered on eBikes since 1998 if I recall correctly. A little shine on both brands in the eMTB world would never hurt. The Yamaha-branded eBikes have not shown any direction towards innovation, but rather just another revenue stream to develop. Which is fine.

 

[R120]

Looks like this thing is about to get real

 

[simonk]

Looks like this thing is about to get real

Want it I do!

(In the voice of Gollum. Or Yoda)

 

[R120]

Definitely one of the more interesting entry’s onto the market - looks like they have gone down a more conventional route for the production suspension though

 

[Zimmerframe]

Definitely one of the more interesting entry’s onto the market - looks like they have gone down a more conventional route for the production suspension though

Do you think the final version, after a few financial considerations, will just be a giant with a yamaha badge?

 

[Eddy Current]

Do you think the final version, after a few financial considerations, will just be a giant with a yamaha badge?

Do you mean built by Giant in their factory? No Yamaha fancy tech on it like I said months before in this thread?

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I watched it full screen on my computer and went frame by frame. Appears to be a Mullet (could be wrong) so really, nothing much out of the norm...

The handling, durability, water ingress resistance, and battery longevity (if better) could be the real deciding factor for the Yamaha... although the basic rear linkage geometry and rear shock position may not deliver performance that we don't already get from other bike brands... perhaps.

Screen captures:

 

[simonk]

Do you think the final version, after a few financial considerations, will just be a giant with a yamaha badge?

I can see Giant being tasked with making the frames. It doesn’t look like anything else in the Giant range though so I’d hope some shameless rebadging isn’t the order of the day.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Only watched on a tiny phone screen, but cassette, forks and so on all look conventional. Downtube size makes me wonder if it's not in the SL world?