Which for steep techy dh between SL or Rise?

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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I genuinely don't think there is a nail to be hit.
We're discussing a rider who's been riding for a grand total of 7 months or so, expecting to be able to buy talent

that’s wrong, -3 months after I sampled some bark ?.....where can you buy talent? I’m not sure on the concept but hook me up, whilst your at that maybe send a bike that fits my way too ?
 

carlbiker

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I'm drawn in too .... I like the simplicity and dumb asses like numbers - it has nice numbers . Though it is a huge unknown. I think the motor is a modified upvolted M800 to get the power/torque numbers up - in a new case and a few fancy tweaks, more expensive components. The battery, who knows - probably something similar. I suspect they're either struggling or just making sure they get the balance perfect between assistance and range/height. I suspect it will end up being more like a turbo+ Mahle than an EP8 RS.

It's (they) arguably expensive for an unknown. A base model gets you a Gen3 Expert ish. Twice the battery, twice the power - though that mere comparison shows I'm obviously still drawn to full fat.

It could end up being the dogs nads. Certainly profitable - must be one of the most expensive direct sales bikes there is - no discounts there, and low production costs with a cheap motor and so on.

My inner gut feeling tells me I'll get 800m climbing out of it and just be really pissed off .. So until there's more real world testing out there - ideally real real world - so a Rob test - it's a bit of a waiting game.

I know the main thing which slows me down though is ineptness. If I spent as long in the garden practising basic techniques as I do pointlessly comparing SL's Primes Rises, Cyon and so on .. I'd be a considerably more magnificent less sh1t rider.

I was awaiting your number crunching to come out, stop Garying down things and gimme your insight to this twin levity suspension pretty please, gimmick or a revolution?
 

carlbiker

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Heh @carlbiker , as a few people have mentioned courses, I can thoroughly recommend this fella:


You’d have to meet at Dalby Forest though, but not too far from Leeds

Ah yes I actually had a session booked in months ago but alas covid crap! That reminds me I’ll try and rebook cheers ?
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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I had a demo today. I'm just 5'9" with 30" inside leg and the large was bang on. Have a Cube FF Since Oct which I love but now heading to the Mrs as blown away by the Rise. Ordered a M10 to have colour choice as now waiting anyway but like powerful brakes and good fork

oooooo the plot thickens, please feel free to elaborate :), I’m 6ft 28 leg. Did you love your Cube before?
 

Zimmerframe

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Jun 12, 2019
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I was awaiting your number crunching to come out, stop Garying down things and gimme your insight to this twin levity suspension pretty please, gimmick or a revolution?
He might seem grumpy, because actually he cares about you (and your wallet) .. but he would know way way way way way more than me on the analysis of that and has no doubt ridden in real life many very similar setups and would comprehend the real world impact of such things ! I just keep watching the video of it and end up going ?‍♂️ - it's been hurting my head ever since I first saw it.

But if it's his birthday tomorrow then he'll be grumpy AND old and senile - so don't expect to get any sense out of him.

After this evenings ride I've knocked the lightweight bike idea on the head once and for all. If you're already knackered from working you can still get in a good ride on an FF. However, I was shot after only 800m climbing tonight and it was hugely affecting my incompetence on the descents - I'd have been wiped out much sooner on a lesser motored/batteried bike so going down would have been even more shoddy no matter how many thousands of grams lighter it might be !!
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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He might seem grumpy, because actually he cares about you (and your wallet) .. but he would know way way way way way more than me on the analysis of that and has no doubt ridden in real life many very similar setups and would comprehend the real world impact of such things ! I just keep watching the video of it and end up going ?‍♂️ - it's been hurting my head ever since I first saw it.

But if it's his birthday tomorrow then he'll be grumpy AND old and senile - so don't expect to get any sense out of him.

After this evenings ride I've knocked the lightweight bike idea on the head once and for all. If you're already knackered from working you can still get in a good ride on an FF. However, I was shot after only 800m climbing tonight and it was hugely affecting my incompetence on the descents - I'd have been wiped out much sooner on a lesser motored/batteried bike so going down would have been even more shoddy no matter how many thousands of grams lighter it might be !!

I just want to buy this one and prove to Gary you can buy skillz as I ride over pyramid shaped rocks without needing to manual or bunny hop, just cycling ?

is it confirmed that 60nm isn’t quite similar to FF torque in relative terms given the lw etc?
 

Zimmerframe

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is it confirmed that 60nm isn’t quite similar to FF torque in relative terms given the lw etc?
Depends what you're comparing it to. An E7000 is also 60nm. The E8000 is 70nm. The EP8 RS is still all the same windings and internals as the EP8 - just software limited on how much power it can pull - so ultimately, most of the time it will feel like an EP8 - just with slightly less top end zoooooooom - ie, if you're not miss daisying along and only pulling 5w anyway.
 
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Zimmerframe

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Not the worlds most accurate article .. The Levo SL for instance they have coming with a Brose Turbo SL 1.1 ....

Don't get too focused on just weight. Tyres can be 1kg difference between bikes if they've fitted it with inflatable condoms.

Also remember there are things like the Focus Jam bikes which are just over 20kg just search Steve_sordy. The old E-Sommets are 21 ? ish.

A lot of people like the Whyte's because it feels like the weight is low so it feels like a light bike on the move.

Have you tried an Orbea Wild ? :p
 

fenwick458

Active member
Oct 6, 2020
295
187
Cumbria
Ok my advice would be not to rush into any purchases and just ride more.

to put this into context, a few years ago when I was still riding my normal MTB, I took an E-MTB out on the same trials I normally did (Demo day at local trail centre)
and very quickly came to the conclusion that they were no good on steep techy stuff. I didn't have a bad day on them exactly but I was flat out downhill with no choice in the matter and I just knew that had I had to hesitate or stop suddenly it would end up bad(and that was in the middle of summer too when it was nice and dry) so was right on the edge you could say.
then fast forward a few years and I own an E bike, as I begin to get back onto those trails I have the same memories in my mind about the bike being less nimble and less controllable, so I didn't ride those steep trails so much and concentrate on more natural stuff or easy trail centres as I was recovering from an operation.
then a while later I start to notice a difference my riding technique even on the tamer stuff, and then as I progress back to the steeper stuff, it feels just the same as it ever did, and despite me putting in less effort in a more relaxed style of riding I seem to be just a fast as I ever was. I remember when I first got my e bike and I used to come to a puddle and pull up and noting happened, in comparison now I'm manualling like a mad man, and it doesn't seem any different. it makes me wonder what it would feel like to go back to a 14kg acoustic MTB!

A while back I remember remarking in an annoyed fashion that the current marketing trend for E-mtbs seems to be : lets put a pro DH biker on an EMTB and film it and sell it to public as a "look at what you can do on our bikes" message, when really I was thinking yeah more like "look at what our pro riders can do on our bikes" but at the end of the day, it shows what the the bike is capable of, you might just need a bit a bit of practice to get you there. good news though, the battery and motor will take you to the top every time with ease and you can get as many runs in as you need to hone your skills :)

also, another thing to think about, get your body weight and add it to your current bike weight. then get your body weight and add it to your desired lightweight e bike weight. you'll see that there is little difference in percentage terms, I had a think about this when I was in the market for one: eg 80Kg BW + 25kg bike = 105kg , or 80Kg BW + 17kg bike = 97Kg. thats an 8% difference in total weight, it's hardly massive when you put it into context
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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leeds england
No it's not.

Lightweight ebike + you = ~100kg,60nm torque
Ff ebike + you =~106kg. 85nm torque

Nm per kg for lightweight bike =0.6nm per kg

Nm per kg for Ff bike =0.80 Nm per kg

Ff bike has about 30%more torque per kg

But to engage full torque requires probably boost unless EMTB kicks in at times, In any case is it needed really really? It’s very tempting to use and I do use but it does feel like it’s cheating and my chain wants to cry!

doesn’t sound anything does it 6kg with the rider weight but something is making these lighter bikes I’ve tested feel amazing
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
1,047
455
leeds england
Ok my advice would be not to rush into any purchases and just ride more.

to put this into context, a few years ago when I was still riding my normal MTB, I took an E-MTB out on the same trials I normally did (Demo day at local trail centre)
and very quickly came to the conclusion that they were no good on steep techy stuff. I didn't have a bad day on them exactly but I was flat out downhill with no choice in the matter and I just knew that had I had to hesitate or stop suddenly it would end up bad(and that was in the middle of summer too when it was nice and dry) so was right on the edge you could say.
then fast forward a few years and I own an E bike, as I begin to get back onto those trails I have the same memories in my mind about the bike being less nimble and less controllable, so I didn't ride those steep trails so much and concentrate on more natural stuff or easy trail centres as I was recovering from an operation.
then a while later I start to notice a difference my riding technique even on the tamer stuff, and then as I progress back to the steeper stuff, it feels just the same as it ever did, and despite me putting in less effort in a more relaxed style of riding I seem to be just a fast as I ever was. I remember when I first got my e bike and I used to come to a puddle and pull up and noting happened, in comparison now I'm manualling like a mad man, and it doesn't seem any different. it makes me wonder what it would feel like to go back to a 14kg acoustic MTB!

A while back I remember remarking in an annoyed fashion that the current marketing trend for E-mtbs seems to be : lets put a pro DH biker on an EMTB and film it and sell it to public as a "look at what you can do on our bikes" message, when really I was thinking yeah more like "look at what our pro riders can do on our bikes" but at the end of the day, it shows what the the bike is capable of, you might just need a bit a bit of practice to get you there. good news though, the battery and motor will take you to the top every time with ease and you can get as many runs in as you need to hone your skills :)

also, another thing to think about, get your body weight and add it to your current bike weight. then get your body weight and add it to your desired lightweight e bike weight. you'll see that there is little difference in percentage terms, I had a think about this when I was in the market for one: eg 80Kg BW + 25kg bike = 105kg , or 80Kg BW + 17kg bike = 97Kg. thats an 8% difference in total weight, it's hardly massive when you put it into context

yeah it’s like the rise video I posted which is possibly the best video I’ve watched of trail gnarly! No clue who he is but there’s no way I’ll ever be able to do what he does even when Uber releases there self driving emtb!

Right now, the acoustic bikes (love that) weigh like 16kg, mines 22kg but they are totally different, maybe it’s how the added battery weight is positioned or something else. All have better forks, slacker head angles and other upgrades.

This is the irony, I did all this thinking hence buying an ebike as a few extra kg of ‘bike weight’ would be compensated from the power and if anything there should be more traction and bigger brakes would fix the pendulum effect dh....nope, she looks dh, engages nitro and brakes seem to shit theirselves. Get on a half priced acoustic with half working brakes and I feel almost as good as Gary with infinity skill

#fkknows
 

Gyre

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2021
630
422
Pasadena, CA
No it's not.

Lightweight ebike + you = ~100kg,60nm torque
Ff ebike + you =~106kg. 85nm torque

Nm per kg for lightweight bike =0.6nm per kg

Nm per kg for Ff bike =0.80 Nm per kg

Ff bike has about 30%more torque per kg
Totally agree that SL makes no sense on paper in terms of top power/weight ratios.

If an SL bike has an close-enough mode to your preferred FF mode and the hit to battery range is tolerable, then an SL bike makes a better argument for itself.
 

fenwick458

Active member
Oct 6, 2020
295
187
Cumbria
This is the irony, I did all this thinking hence buying an ebike as a few extra kg of ‘bike weight’ would be compensated from the power and if anything there should be more traction and bigger brakes would fix the pendulum effect dh....nope, she looks dh, engages nitro and brakes seem to shit theirselves. Get on a half priced acoustic with half working brakes and I feel almost as good as Gary with infinity skill

I'm fairly certain that it's all in your mind. just keep riding your bike, let me know if nothing has changed in 6 months
 

GMLS

Active member
Jun 22, 2020
336
209
Surrey
oooooo the plot thickens, please feel free to elaborate :), I’m 6ft 28 leg. Did you love your Cube before?
Yes very happy with the Cube but you can't get away from the fact they are heavy beasts, I'm 56 and starting to lose a bit of upper body strength
 

Rosemount

E*POWAH Elite
May 23, 2020
822
1,748
Qld Australia
Gee thanks Buddy !
1620426352108.png
 

Rosemount

E*POWAH Elite
May 23, 2020
822
1,748
Qld Australia
@slippery pete



Originally I had 223mm rotors ordered but lbs couldn’t fit them so I went onto stock, when I use the brakes they gurgle and after today it might be the discs aren’t quite right for the size of the pads but although I’m not expert I believe there’s more to modulation than just brakes alone, traction + brakes + suspension and only a crazy person would blame MT7 for not performing. T hat set maybe they aren’t setup 100% also. I have actually just got an MDT-C CL x1 maguru disc today (can’t find a second!) to try out, maybe this helps. My mates Cube actionteam had a nice fork, 27.5 wheels and the Saints plus Mary/betty.....probably no surprise it inspires more confidence



Maybe this might help, I didn’t volunteer to do it but was given abit of encouragement to go for it so, well bugger it as they say off I went (not OTB thankfully!). There was more challenging stuff than this I also did on the day but at times it was just pure sketchy and having to react to stuff too often...


The first part it’s just about modulating, second part it’s literally lock on/off all the way down, this might be normal but I’ve a suspicion you can hold the pad on the disc all the way without locking up....taking the edge of kind of thing maybe 20% even.

The videos nothing to show off about, might look good to non mtb folk but time will improve my technique plus I’m always out with better riders (but I feel the gap is artificial because of the fact there mainly analogue making everything easier imo, I know I can do more), it’s kind of why I want a fighting chance by being tuned in with a bike, any bike ?, I can catch up abit quicker then.
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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Jeezus ..after just flicking through this thread ..Im bored senseless.. let me know when Carl has made his mind up and maybe someone could do a brief summary ..

Okay in honour of ‘The Hodge’ who is the covid version of ‘The Hoff’ I have given in and made a decision, just to make him happy......
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
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AQi67hW.gif


I hear Steve Peat is now super busy at Wharncliffe woods blocking off all the DH trails so he can remain KOM
 

hainman

Member
Apr 8, 2021
74
42
Glasgow
@carlbiker who gave you the information on the Wild having warranty invalidated due to upping the fork travel
I ride a wild fs team full carbon
Been on it a year and yes it took some time to get used to the bigger wheels
The longer wheelbase and weight etc but I love mine
Still have my trail bike,a 160mm bird aeris 27.5 and Havnt rode it in a year since I owned the eeb
I’ve adapted my riding,learned to take tight corners better,
I ride same steep techy stuff as my mates on trail bikes and in some parts are faster than them due to the added speed generated from the weight
If you know of heard of the tweed valley in Scotland it has some of the steepest trails in the Uk and I can ride them fine,with in my skill level!!
As with the tyres I’d say try a different tyre,make as I wasn’t a fan of the DHF but know others who like it
Personal preference! The head angle on the wild is on par with most bikes and isn’t too bad,
If you haven’t been riding steep techy DH trails king then jumping on an Eeb probably was the best idea,they do make you work for your smiles
 
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carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
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leeds england
Come on then, don't keep us in suspense, what did you decide?

Okay so this will make you all happy and I get to prove doubters wrong at the same time! ?

ebikeshop I’ve just stuck £200 deposit down as the 12/12 order (next batch is the new model in November) but the bike isn’t ready until July so I get to see if I can solve any current issues.

If by July the wild has redeemed itself I’ll give to the missus! (larger than normal *cough cough*). There’s 18 months interest free, so £300 ish per month, it’s not really 7k is it then and my target then well I can sell stuff, maybe do clinical trials or the odd body part, by all accounts it probably won’t impact on any performance so happy days, actually if anything the lighter weight would gain me more agility!! :ROFLMAO:

My lbs annoyingly can’t commit me a bike, but can offer a demo and ‘maybe’ a bike, I’ve no idea, have to wait back, kicker as they do 10% off.....no doubt an M10 will just pop up law of the sod and all that
 

carlbiker

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Sep 15, 2020
1,047
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leeds england
@carlbiker who gave you the information on the Wild having warranty invalidated due to upping the fork travel
I ride a wild fs team full carbon
Been on it a year and yes it took some time to get used to the bigger wheels
The longer wheelbase and weight etc but I love mine
Still have my trail bike,a 160mm bird aeris 27.5 and Havnt rode it in a year since I owned the eeb
I’ve adapted my riding,learned to take tight corners better,
I ride same steep techy stuff as my mates on trail bikes and in some parts are faster than them due to the added speed generated from the weight
If you know of heard of the tweed valley in Scotland it has some of the steepest trails in the Uk and I can ride them fine,with in my skill level!!
As with the tyres I’d say try a different tyre,make as I wasn’t a fan of the DHF but know others who like it
Personal preference! The head angle on the wild is on par with most bikes and isn’t too bad,
If you haven’t been riding steep techy DH trails king then jumping on an Eeb probably was the best idea,they do make you work for your smiles

Hey welcome to the fun house new member! ?

This was the LBS as they had an M20
available and after doing a quick comparison it would have made more sense to go the upgrade route and end up with better parts.

What’s eeb stand for? I bet your carbon version is lovely! Good to hear some adjustments have made things good for you, hopefully I’m as fortunate.....this sport you have to push the boundaries as there’s so little time hence my enormous amount of enquiry but at least I’m not giving up just yet!
 

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