When will we see a new brose motor

[Matlockmeat]

So with all the competition improving surely it's time for Specialised/Brose to put them selves back in front.

Seeing so many reports of faulty 2.1 motors it's putting me off so hoping they address it soon with a new motor.

With the likes of Bosch gen 4. Sachs, TQ and the Shimano E9000 only around the corner the 2.1 is getting a bit dated and is 15 months old.

Does anyone have any info on what's coming next and when? Or what is the usual cycle for a new motor?

 

[escrs]

Normally every 3 years for Brose and Bosch not sure about any others

 

[Rusty]

E9000 still a rumor. Once tech support receives info then we can point to a date. Based on how the E8000 was released I expect released late 2020 for 2021 models or even late 2021.

The Brose came out for the 2019 models so expect 2021 release for 2022 models.
Don't stress it about the 2.1 - I know of a dozen or so in my club and a group I ride with and none have had any issues.

 

[wepn]

The Brose Ti S. 3.0 I'm guessing

 

[Fivetones]

In many ways we don’t even know if Specialized will go with another Brose motor. Or if they do it goes in the next Kenevo (2023).

I’m wondering if they will go with another Mahle sourced motor like the Creo as that would open up possibilities for lighter weight or be more compact so other suspension arrangements can be deployed.

 

[wepn]

In many ways we don’t even know if Specialized will go with another Brose motor. Or if they do it goes in the next Kenevo (2023).

I’m wondering if they will go with another Mahle sourced motor like the Creo as that would open up possibilities for lighter weight or be more compact so other suspension arrangements can be deployed.

Yes Mahle! But also Brose E-14, Kervelo Quartz, Revonte One, ...

 

[Fivetones]

You’re right, there are a great many potential options coming. I’d just limited to Specialized but I’m probably most excited about a combined motor/CVT gearbox set up. I give it 4-5 years but it could remove a lot of pain points for e-MTBs (wear and tear, opportunity to optimise into torque bands to reduce battery usage etc).

 

[R120]

I would say that in the lifecycle of motors the latest Brose is fairly still “new”

From what I can see the only improvement it really need is reliability, not performance.

IMO all the current crop of motors are powerful enough, improvements for me would be in software and reliability. I have no interest in a more powerful motor.

I would expect to see the Shimano E9000 (or whatever they call it) announced around the time of the trade shows in the Autumn - I suspect it will use the same mounting system as the E8/7000 as I don’t think so many Shimano motored brands would have heavily revised their line ups for 2020 only to have to do so again so soon

 

[Zimmerframe]

this is going off topic a little (brose) .. and we don't like to do that ..

But what would we expect an e9000 to bring ? a slightly wider torque band ??

As @R120 says, more reliability .. but then they released the 7000 after everything they'd learnt from the 8000 and made things worse ?!?

Lets hope they shake things up and lob a gearbox in there. Keep the E8000 for anyone who doesn't want that and viola.

 

[wepn]

Lets hope they shake things up and lob a gearbox in there

Looking at all the PR, patents, many competitors announcing or showing their new kit, they have to throw a gearbox in there. Or throw a motor in the gearbox. CVT or e-shift.

Like a Shimano drive in the Honda G-Cross Version 1. Also some tidbits on that...

Honda RN01 Version 1 CVT from 2004

“I’m pretty sure they let MinGNAR hang on to his, I saw a picture of his garage/ bike collection one time and he still had every bike he had ever ridden... including the Honda RN01.
Mr Min has his, that was my photo of it along with his Haro and Orange 222 from just over a year ago. Its still there today, unless Greg moved it since last week. Rumor has it that its the most stable, controlled suspension platform of any bike out there(coming from a guy who was never paid a cent by Honda). Gregs' comments as I recall from a conversation I had with him after moving to Santa Cruz were that the gearbox made cornering much easier and controlled and he was having trouble getting used to the conventional derailer on the v10.”

 

[Fivetones]

Continental smoothly overpowers with first CVT 48V e-Bike drivetrain systems - e-Bikerumor

The challenge is to get that weight overhead down from 2.5kg to closer to 1kg. The whole package needs to come in under 3-3.5kg in my mind.

 

[Slideways]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the soon to be released Creo which has a Specialized motor. As soon as that was announced my thoughts were that the next motor for any of the Specialized bikes would be what Specialized made.

 

[Fivetones]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the soon to be released Creo which has a Specialized motor. As soon as that was announced my thoughts were that the next motor for any of the Specialized bikes would be what Specialized made.

I mentioned it. Made by Mahle.

 

[Slideways]

I mentioned it. Made by Mahle.

Oops, not payin’ close enough attention, sorry.

 

[wepn]

Continental smoothly overpowers with first CVT 48V e-Bike drivetrain systems - e-Bikerumor

The challenge is to get that weight overhead down from 2.5kg to closer to 1kg. The whole package needs to come in under 3-3.5kg in my mind.

Yes it seemed like it could have been really good but sad outcome:

Continental has announced it will be ceasing production of its electric bike motors in 2020.

...The drive system was created in partnership between Continental and NuVinci (NuVinci Optimized), who had already created their Harmony hub gear system that used the same planetary gear arrangement. Using this technology, they were able to create a system that could change gears either while riding or not. In addition to this, riders could choose the gears themselves or use an automatic cadence based system that would change the gearing to ensure you could keep riding at a preselected cadence. But at 6.4kg the motor system was a pretty hefty beast.

Continental Announces its Departure from the E-MTB Motor Market - Pinkbike

 

[Fivetones]

Yeah, I get a hunch that maybe they couldn’t engineer it down to a marketable weight. And in my calculation that’s half what they got it to in production at least.

 

[Slideways]

Personally I am enjoying watching the technology of the ebike unfold. The last time the bicycle world saw something explode like this was the introduction of the mountain bike. I don’t think I’m sticking my neck out too far if I say the ebike boom will eclipse that of the mountain bike. Motor and transmission advances are exciting but where are the super light weight, recharge in no time forever, environmentally friendly batteries. Don’t mean to redirect this thread but has anyone heard of the next big thing in the power source for the motor?

 

[Fivetones]

I think we’re a couple of years off from that leap forward that we all want. I think the best we can hope for is greater efficiency of the motor/drivetrain until then.

 

[steve_sordy]

........... has anyone heard of the next big thing in the power source for the motor?

It was covered in a thread a few weeks ago about ebike developments.
This sort of thing:
Electric car battery with 600 miles of range? This startup claims to have done it

 

[Fivetones]

I took those claims with a pinch of salt at the time but if deliverable then clearly in 5 years we’ll be much better off as that’s a couple of kilos off the weight.

 

[Rusty]

It was covered in a thread a few weeks ago about ebike developments.
This sort of thing:
Electric car battery with 600 miles of range? This startup claims to have done it

One just needs to look at the 18650 battery. While most are in the 2000-2600mah range there are some up to 4500mah but they are prone to exploding and have a much higher general failure rate than the lower spec ones. LG has a wonderful 3000mah that is proving to be very reliable.
A local repacker that specialises in power tools has done a few Shimano and Speshy repacks with great success. Has a 50-60% increase in capacity so somewhere in the 700Wh range in the same form factor with virtually no weight penalty.
His biggest bitch is that both the Shimano & Spashy battery packs use well known suppliers such as Hitachi but are using the Chinese sourced cells and not the Japanese ones. Apparently you can tell where they come from based on whether they have a shiny or matte cover. The Chinese cells have a failure rate in the early percentage range - 2-5% I think he said, where the Japanese ones only have a .5% failure rate. The cost difference to him is like 40c per cell but he reckons someone like Shimano would only pay maybe 4c more based on volume.
Even at 40c per cell that is only $16 - on something sold at a price point 3-4 times more than they should be. He is of the opinion they charge so much for replacement battery packs to cover their warranty failures.

 

[Jamsxr]

The eBike world seems to be so obsessed with what’s better and what’s next... better make sure I’ve got the “best” bike.

Don’t get me wrong, I like new/better stuff, but it’s really not what counts.... it get’s the juices flowing though.

 

[Rusty]

Seen this all before @Jamsxr - in the motocross world. We went from crappy, heavy air-cooled 4 strokes that were real pigs to ride to affordable air-cooled 2-stroke bikes that you could do a bottom end job between motos to more complicated (and arguably more reliable) water-cooled 2-stroke bikes that were still reasonably affordable and you could replace a broken ring between motos to very expensive water-cooled 4-strokes that when they break cost an arm, a leg and often your first-born to repair and you wait ages for the job to be done.

Sometimes big advances come with big ancillary costs.

 

[Jamsxr]

Seen this all before @Jamsxr - in the motocross world. We went from crappy, heavy air-cooled 4 strokes that were real pigs to ride to affordable air-cooled 2-stroke bikes that you could do a bottom end job between motos to more complicated (and arguably more reliable) water-cooled 2-stroke bikes that were still reasonably affordable and you could replace a broken ring between motos to very expensive water-cooled 4-strokes that when they break cost an arm, a leg and often your first-born to repair and you wait ages for the job to be done.

Sometimes big advances come with big ancillary costs.

The thing is, I still have more fun on my MTB. Don’t get me wrong though, in the MTB world new stuff still matters, but it’s just not as important as it appears to be for EMTB riders.

Having ridden motorbikes for the majority of my life, I’ll still take a sketchy 2 stroke or v-twin over the latest, electronic laden superbike.

I don’t think you can apply the same logic to EMTB, but most people seem to spend too much time focusing on the spec sheet.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I don’t think you can apply the same logic to EMTB, but most people seem to spend too much time focusing on the spec sheet.

It's FEAR ! Fear we're not making the right decision, getting the best value for money, the most appropriate bike for us. Marketing gives the impression that every bike is the best bike .. in reality, for most people they're just all really good and it probably doesn't make that much difference and the colour is probably more important in our day to day lives ..

But did I get the right colour .....

 

[Jamsxr]

It's FEAR ! Fear we're not making the right decision, getting the best value for money, the most appropriate bike for us. Marketing gives the impression that every bike is the best bike .. in reality, for most people they're just all really good and it probably doesn't make that much difference and the colour is probably more important in our day to day lives ..

But did I get the right colour .....

I’m just board if the ‘Levo vs Decoy’ and ‘Brose vs Shimano’ topics. I guess that’s the point of a forum to be fair!

Get a bike, most of them are great, go shred!

 

[Fivetones]

Speculating about future technology certainly doesn’t come from a place of fear for me. I like to consider the possibilities the tech might open up.

I love my e-MTB, for my own personal situation it’s great. When I’m working on my fitness and technique I’m not worrying about the next bike!

 

[Doomanic]

A local repacker that specialises in power tools has done a few Shimano and Speshy repacks with great success. Has a 50-60% increase in capacity so somewhere in the 700Wh range in the same form factor with virtually no weight penalty.

What cells is he using to get those numbers? The 504Wh batteries are made up of 3500mAh cells already.

 

[Mcharza]

The only way is use 21700 cells, but they are bigger. Or this guy is doing some magic?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Even if he stuck in an MMRTG there'd be a 90kg weight penalty for 250w ... Oh to have a more efficient MMRTG on a bike .... no range anxiety..

Maybe it is Magic ...